WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[jdw]

Do we know anything about Merch? Anecdotally I knew a lot of people who had Sting shirts or what not in high school.

Sting moved merch for what... 2 years? 18 months? :/ WCW's merch business before the Monday Night Wars was terrible.

 

I doubt we have full, accurate numbers for the entire 90s that can be directly compared (i.e. total number of items sold in each product category). But I suspect that if we did, Bret sold more merch than Sting did. Crow Sting's peak might be higher, but Bret sold merch in the WWF year after year for 8 years, be it those goofy foam fingers or the goofy pink sun glasses or shirts.

 

It's also possible that if we're doing that 1990-98 frame offered up earlier, that Austin sold so much shit in 1998 along with a reasonable amount of shit in 1996-97 that it swamps what Sting sold in 1990-98.

 

It's really tricky. I think we're cutting Sting the best possible case by calling him #3 behind Hogan and Bret. We're also gerrymandering it to hit Sting the best possible way (an odd 9 year period rather than the entire decade or even looking at individual years). We're also ignoring that there are extremely few people who were just a babyface in that period (hell, even Hogan wasn't)... which again favors Sting.

 

It truly is one where we'd be better off not thinking too hard about it.

 

John

[Matt D]

In this case, I was mainly thinking about 97 since people were downplaying his influence there given the fact he wasn't working house shows, etc. That might be somewhat counterbalanced by merch sales. In general though, I agree with you. He did show up on a few house shows as a run in at the end but not a ton certainly.

[JerryvonKramer]

How many times are we going to do the Sting argument?

[Dylan Waco]

How many times are we going to do the Sting argument?

As many as need be.

 

To be honest I'd prefer to have the Edge argument, but I don't think anyone here is going to bite.

[jdw]

I think Sting was a big part of the nWo getting over. I don't think it would have did as well as it did, without an established hero like Sting railing against them and rallying the troops.

Hogan joining the Outsiders was a big part of the nWo getting over. I'm not entirely sure how much Sting had to do with Hogan-Savage and Hogan-Piper drawing big buys in Oct-96, Dec-96 and Feb-97.

 

Sting played a roll.

 

Eric played a bigger roll. Hogan played a bigger roll. Hall & Nash (combined) played a bigger roll.

 

In a sense, Savage and Piper played big rolls as face who couldn't crack the nWo's power. Lots of people played rolls, and it's really hard to pull a number out of the air and give Sting x% credit for the nWo. 50%? No... it's safe to say that if anyone deserves close to 50% it would be Hogan. 25%? Way too high considering we would need to give a bigger chunk than 25% to Hogan and also Eric and also Hall+Nash (combined)... which would take us over 100%. Given all the people who played rolls in helping get the nWo over, it's pretty hard to give Sting even as much as a 10% credit in it because there simply isn't that much left to spread around after you get done with just those four lead heels... then start passing around pieces to top faces (Piper, Savage, Steiners, Lex, Giant) who contributed.

 

He played a roll. But it's a bit like the Harts vs USA feud. The overwhelming majority of credit has to go to Bret and Vince (akin to Hogan and Eric here). Then a piece for Owen & Davey because it needed to be a unit rather than just Bret (though frankly Bret going heel on his own would have been successful). Owen & Davey maybe get less of a piece than Hall & Nash, but they have a chunk. Which... doesn't leave a lot of pieces for other people.

 

 

He is also the only guy TNA who did not lose his aura in TNA. Foley, Flair, RVD and even Hogan lost what made them special in TNA. Sting became stronger.

Is TNA even relevant?

 

John

[WingedEagle]

I'd have to go back and review how certain PPVs other than Starrcade were promoted to see what else he was responsible for. Offhand I believe Uncensored with the nwo vs. wcw vs. piper mess was sold with Sting having an impact on the main event. Will try to take a look at other PPVs that year to see which, if any, were sold on his back.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd have to go back and review how certain PPVs other than Starrcade were promoted to see what else he was responsible for. Offhand I believe Uncensored with the nwo vs. wcw vs. piper mess was sold with Sting having an impact on the main event. Will try to take a look at other PPVs that year to see which, if any, were sold on his back.

It was definitely sold that way. I was at the show live and the anticipation of Sting being there was a major, major aspect of the show. People were defeated when he didn't show up to stop the NWO from winning at the finish and when he came down from the building the pop in the building was insane and unlike anything I have ever been a part of before or since.

[Matt D]

Certainly the first War Games was Sting Related. Since it was all about what side he'd be on.

[WingedEagle]

I'd have to go back and review how certain PPVs other than Starrcade were promoted to see what else he was responsible for. Offhand I believe Uncensored with the nwo vs. wcw vs. piper mess was sold with Sting having an impact on the main event. Will try to take a look at other PPVs that year to see which, if any, were sold on his back.

It was definitely sold that way. I was at the show live and the anticipation of Sting being there was a major, major aspect of the show. People were defeated when he didn't show up to stop the NWO from winning at the finish and when he came down from the building the pop in the building was insane and unlike anything I have ever been a part of before or since.

 

Cool, that's what I thought. I definitely remembered that pop but wasn't sure if I was imagining things about the build. Looks like that drew a 0.89 buyrate, good for 3rd on the year behind Starrcade and Havoc. The show also had Rodman appearing in a non-wrestling capacity.

[WingedEagle]

Certainly the first War Games was Sting Related. Since it was all about what side he'd be on.

Yep, that was back in '96 where they introduced nwo sting and led to crow sting.

[Dylan Waco]

One thing I would note is that EVEN IF we grant Sting the maximum amount of credit for Crow Sting run as is feasibly possible, I find it very hard to see how he can get in absent either A. a sustained run of being a solid ace, who did well at the box office if not outstanding or B. another very hot run of note, that lasted at least a couple of years. I see nothing like that on his resume.

 

I'm not sure this is the best comparison, but looking at Sting next to Kerry Von Erich, it is very hard for me to see how Sting is a better candidate in any area other than longevity as a star. Kerry is someone who has never really mustered much support.

 

I would honestly like to see someone compare Sting to guys like Kerry and JYD who aren't in and likely never will be. Perhaps a comparison to Taker or some other figure who people think is comparable in some sense who is inside the Hall would be interesting too.

[NintendoLogic]

According to Dave, Sting barely moved any merch at all and WCW execs lamented that the Little Stingers they kept pushing didn't actually exist.

[Victator]

Hogan joining the Outsiders was a big part of the nWo getting over. I'm not entirely sure how much Sting had to do with Hogan-Savage and Hogan-Piper drawing big buys in Oct-96, Dec-96 and Feb-97.

Savage and Piper were over, but they were also WWF guys.

 

Sting was the face of WCW for its entire existence.

[jdw]

Hogan joining the Outsiders was a big part of the nWo getting over. I'm not entirely sure how much Sting had to do with Hogan-Savage and Hogan-Piper drawing big buys in Oct-96, Dec-96 and Feb-97.

Savage and Piper were over, but they were also WWF guys.

 

Sting was the face of WCW for its entire existence.

 

That would mean a lot to me if it weren't for the fact that the PPV's I mentioned drew a load of money. My recollection is that the Hogan-Piper set a new WCW record for buys, while that Hogan-Savage and the second Hogan-Piper were very close to it.

 

New WCW record would happen to top all of those that Sting had main evented prior to it.

 

New WCW record means it's money into WCW's pocket, not into Vince's and the WWF's.

 

It's a bit like saying that Babe Ruth was a Red Sox who already had 3 rings before he went to the Yankees, and that what he did with the Yankees really did add a lot since he was originally a Sox.

 

No... Ruth was the piece the Yankees were built on, regardless of where he came from.

 

In turn, WCW's hot run under Eric was built on Hogan. Not on Sting. Sting was just one of various people that Hogan drew big buys with. It was the biggest buy, but Hogan had more than a dozen other strong ones that topped what WCW (and Sting) did before he joined WCW.

 

John

[goc]

I'm not sure this is the best comparison, but looking at Sting next to Kerry Von Erich, it is very hard for me to see how Sting is a better candidate in any area other than longevity as a star. Kerry is someone who has never really mustered much support.

 

I would honestly like to see someone compare Sting to guys like Kerry and JYD who aren't in and likely never will be. Perhaps a comparison to Taker or some other figure who people think is comparable in some sense who is inside the Hall would be interesting too.

I would take Kerry over Sting, easily. He was a better draw and before the motorcycle accident I think he was a better worker.

[jdw]

Let me go at it from another direction.

 

We can find examples of Sting headlining big shows in WCW and them drawing. But we need to think deeper about them before we instantly say "Proof that Sting = Huge Draw~!"

 

And example of this:

 

2046+1001+806+398+1106

 

In 1988-91, All Japan climaxed 4 of their 8 series with Budokan shows: Feb/Mar, May/Jun, Aug/Sep, Nov/Dec.

 

In 1992 it was expanded to 5 of 8 series with an October Budokan.

 

In 1993 it was expanded to 6 of 8 series with a July Budokan.

 

In 1994 it was expanded to 7 of 8 with an April Budokan (Carny Final).

 

This would be the number of Budokans they would run each year from 1994-99 before the split in 2000.

 

With the exception of a 1990 interpromotion Dome show that used WWF and New Japan talent, All Japan didn't promote shows at the Dome.

 

In 1998, All Japan booked the Dome.

 

The would run it again in 1999 before the split in 2000.

 

In 1992, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the October card that added the 5th Budokan to the calendar.

 

In 1993, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the July card that added the 6th Budokan to the calendar.

 

In 1994, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the April card that added the 7th Budokan to the calendar.

 

In 1998, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the card that added the Tokyo Dome to the calendar.

 

You read that correct: singles matches featuring Kawada were used to "open" all four major cards added to All Japan's calendar in the 90s.

 

In addition, Kawada main evented two Tokyo Dome cards for New Japan in 2000 and 2001 that sold out, at a time when New Japan's Dome attendance was dropping rather fast.

 

That's six rather major positives. I mean think about that:

 

* Being in the singles match that adds all four major cards (i.e. PPV equivs) to your promotion's calendar in a decade, which doubled the promotion's number of annual major cards in that period.

 

* helping a second promotion reversing its trend my selling out two major Dome shows, essentially the Wrestlemania and the Survivor Series of the Japanese wrestling calendar

 

If you don't know a lot about All Japan, that makes Kawada sounds like Hogan, doesn't it?

 

There's a catch:

 

In 1992, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the October card that added the 5th Budokan to the calendar.

That was Misawa's first TC defense, the first Misawa-Kawada after they became regular partners, and was voted on by the fans as the match they wanted to main event the 20th Anniversary Show. It's a "positive", but only part of it was Kawada.

 

In 1993, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the July card that added the 6th Budokan to the calendar.

That would also be with Misawa defending the Triple Crown. This would be the first Misawa-Kawada after Kawada left Misawa's group to become a true rival, basically the "heel" in the feud. It's a positive, but only part was Kawada.

 

In 1994, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the April card that added the 7th Budokan to the calendar.

This was the Carny Final. The match that main events it never is even announced before the thing sells out: it's a tourney where the finalists aren't determined until days before the card. It sold out when the tickets were put on sale the month before. Kawada just happened to go to the Final, against Steve Williams... in a tourney where Misawa was "injured" early on. Misawa had been in the Final in 1992 and 1993, losing to Hansen and was expected to go to the finals yet again. The positive here is the Baba had enough faith in Kawada (and Doc) to book them into a singles main event at Budokan and believe that it wouldn't let the fans down who bought the tickets thinking it would be Misawa against someone. Kawada did in fact deliever... but it's not really an example of him being a draw.

 

In 1998, Toshiaki Kawada was in the singles match that was the clear main event on the card that added the Tokyo Dome to the calendar.

This happened to be again... you guessed it... Misawa defending the TC. It was as much a celebration of All Japan first as Kawada being a big draw. It's a positive, and again a sign that Baba had some faith in Kawada holding up his end of main eventing opposite Misawa on an important card.

 

In addition, Kawada main evented two Tokyo Dome cards for New Japan in 2000 and 2001 that sold out, at a time when New Japan's Dome attendance was dropping rather fast.

These matches were New Japan vs All Japan, with Kawada pretty much all that was left of All Japan. There's zero doubt that if Kobashi was in those matches, the place would have sold out. There's zero doubt that if Misawa was in those matches, they would have sold out even faster. It's a positive that Kawada had enough to hold up his end of a New Japan vs All Japan dream match and pop the joint. But he wasn't unique in having the ability to do that at the time. It simply was opportunity.

 

We would be correct in calling these six cards positives in Kawada's case for the HOF. But we also would be misleading if we claimed *he* was the central draw in any one of them. It was largely circumstances and Misawa in the All Japan ones, and opportunity in the New Japan ones. It would be best to say that Kawada as an "opponent" had some strong draws to point to.

 

That's not really a negative. In a sense, the exact some thing could be said about most of Tenryu's best drawing positives. He was the opponent in the NJPW vs WAR feud. He was the opponent for Takada in a good draw. He was the opponent for Onita in a good draw. The one clear contrast to this would be Hogan being the opponent for him (and to a lesser degree the Road Warriors while Tenryu teamed with Hogan)... but the true tickets selling of those matches is a big question mark. What we can say for sure is that was excellent as the outsider opponent Tenryu in several dream match opportunities. That's a positive.

 

Going in the other direction, lots of guys drew opposite Hogan in the 80s in the WWF. Kamala set some records right after the Orndorff feud. Hogan or Kamala?

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

That's a great post John and the sort of thing that is worth thinking about, but I would say that I do think Vic has a point. Now I would not give Sting very much credit for the initial onset of the Nitro boom, or the NWO explosion. But I do think he was the right guy to do the "who's side is he on?" gimmick with and rafters bit with. It worked in part because it was Sting. It was a guy who had been the face of WCW and the most identifiable WCW guy and he was accused of being a traitor by those who should have known better.

 

Does this mean Hogan and the NWO would not have gotten over as strong had someone else been in the role? Hard to say. The heel side was definitely the right guys, particularly Hogan who was ripe for the turn. On the other hand who else could have been the guy accused of betrayal, who in fact had been betrayed and watched on from the rafters teasing something big week to week? Flair? He was over for sure, but I don't think anyone would have bought him in the role for obvious reasons. Luger has similar baggage. Absent those two I'm not even sure there is a theoretical option worth entertaining.

 

Of course if you think Crow Sting was a piddling part of the equation it doesn't really matter one way or the other. I tend to think he was a very important part of the equation, albeit a part that is hard to quantify.

[jdw]

Kawada was the right guy against Misawa. He has some positive things to point to, that were a piece of All Japan growing it's revenue. But again, I could craft those positives in a way that make Kawada look, to someone who doesn't know better, to have been more impactful that he was.

 

Okay... so skip Kawada and go to the sacred cow I also mentioned:

 

Tenryu

 

We can craft the argument to make Tenryu into an awesome, mind bending draw.

 

But it would miss the point that on his own, as the lead rather than the "opponent", his promotions SWS and WAR were failures. He got his ass utterly kicked by those undercard guys in All Japan who use to was his back and carry his bags.

 

Now those last two sentences, which are factually correct, are also not entirely fair to Tenryu either. The reality is somewhere in the middle, or better stated "a bit of both".

 

That is Sting. On a smaller scale, since Tenryu did it as an opponent in several promotions. Sting did it in one, and we're not entirely sure if he would have had success in the WWF. We think so... but the LOD weren't a lock draw in the WWF. You never really know.

 

I don't think Sting was a piddling part of WCW in that era, or the nWo storyline. But more than Hogan? Of course not. Eric? No. Hall & Nash? No. Those guys get roughly 75% of the credit in my book, with Hogan and Eric combining to be over 50% while Hall & Nash take up whathever balance is left to get to 75%.

 

Sting is in the grouping with Piper, Savage, Lex and the Steiners. At the top of that grouping? Perhaps. But what chunk of the 25% does he get? It's hard to go past 10% because it means that 15% has to not only be devided with those out 3+2, but also *everyone* one else in the company who played a role. That includes people like Tony (who I'm not a fan of but did his job in this) and Bobby who sold the motherfuck out of the angle. The entire rest of the company dividing up 15% so Sting can get 10%? That's asking a lot.

 

Am I too high on Hogan, Eric and Hall & Nash? It's asking a lot to cut them down.

 

It was Eric's idea, he spent the boatloads of money to make it happen, he sold the hell out of it, and then was Mr. McMahon before Mr. McMahon. He warrants credit (and frankly warrants a place in the HOF even if I don't like him).

 

There also is no Anti-WCW group is Hall & Nash don't jump. They also made the nWo cool to the fan base... again, even if I didn't like them. It's extremely hard to sub anyone for them: there really wasn't anyone else in the WWF who could have jumped and made it work. Sure as fuck not Shawn, who would have been completely eaten up by Hogan in two months... then not show the respect by Hogan to let him continue to get push as co-lead heel of the company like Hall & Nash.

 

And in the end, there is no nWo without Hogan. The Outsiders didn't take fully off, and if they didn't deliver a strong #3, it would have gone off the rails. Instead, Hogan took the thing off. Then he sustained it, and manipulated the shit out of it to revolve around himself in the key storylines. A self center genius, but lord did they rake in the cash.

 

75% seems high, but there literally is no angle without each one in turn: Eric, then Hall & Nash, then Hogan. In turn, Hogan was at the center of every major nWo draw of the entire era. Not even needing "WCW guys" to draw, instead doing it against Savage and Piper initially as he angle was taking off.

 

So I don't think Sting was a piddling part of it. But I don't think we can give him massive credit for it either. Closer to Kobashi in the Jumbo & Co. vs Misawa & Co. feud. Kobashi was excellent in it... but he takes a back seat to Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada and Taue from a storyline standpoint and drawing standpoint in it. There's even that little Fuchi & Ogawa vs Kikuchi aspect that warrant credit for what it added, and is a lot closer to Kobashi's contributions than say what Kobashi did was close to what Kawada vs Taue added to it. Kobashi wasn't piddling, he played an important roll, brought a ton of quality, the fans loved him, but... we shouldn't get carried away on his importance to the feud.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

Didn't All Japan sell out their Budokan shows just by selling tickets to those in attendance at the previous show without announcing the card?

[Ditch]

Didn't All Japan sell out their Budokan shows just by selling tickets to those in attendance at the previous show without announcing the card?

For a couple years once Misawa got rolling, yes. Which is why I wonder how much more Baba could have wrung out of Tokyo (ie. one or two Dome cards a year, 9 Budokan events) annually. Is there a promoter in the history of the business who would book so conservatively when the money was so obviously there for the taking?

 

In any case, the credit still goes to Misawa because he was the ace. For the entire string of Budokan sellouts he was in the main or semi-main every time, and most of those semi-mains were legitimate drawing bouts (ie. March '92 TC vs Hansen; tag titles; Misawa/Hansen vs Taue/Kobashi parejas increibles). Kawada was main-or-semi-main most of the time but there were plenty of times where he wasn't (ie. 8/22/92, 3/5/94). Ditto Hansen.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The numbers and all that stuff are one thing. But from the perspective of the fan, Sting was the face of WCW. It has more to do with emotions than the numbers.

[NintendoLogic]

The Sting debate kind of reminds me of the sabermetrician/traditionalist divide in baseball. You can point to all kinds of numbers showing that Sting wasn't really the featured guy in WCW all that often and usually didn't do great business when he was. But to a lot of people, it felt like Sting was the top guy, so he must have been.

[Matt D]

Is anyone (past the one guy who won't back things up) actually arguing that Sting should go in? I know I'm not. I'm just arguing that it FEELS like he should go in.

[JerryvonKramer]

I was on the Sting side of the debate when it happened before. Scroll back for it, I have no new points to make.

[Childs]

And as in the baseball debates, cold logic helps you realize flaws in your gauzy memories. I'm the right age to be sentimental about Sting, but I find that I'm not. He was never the face of classic WCW for me; that was Flair. And he wasn't the face of later, boom-period WCW; that was Hogan. He was certainly one of the most important figures in WCW for a decade, but I wouldn't be in a rush to stick a guy who was never an ace and never a historically great worker into the HOF.