Joshi For People Who Don't Like Joshi

[Loss]

Just thought I'd post this for people who struggle to get into Joshi because of some of the stylistic things. If you want more long-term selling and meaningful shifts in momentum, these are matches I'd highly recommend checking out.

 

Akira Hokuto vs Toshiyo Yamada, AJW 5/3/93

This is a beautiful pro wrestling match. Hokuto is still selling the effects of the match with Kandori and has her arm taped up. Yamada treats it like the neon sign it is and goes right for it, and at one point, Hokuto even has to have her arm re-taped. Hokuto's selling may be the best I've ever seen. She pulls off a LOPSIDED German suplex because she can't use one of her arms. I'm really excited about continuing to watch Hokuto in '93.

Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo, AJW 12/6/93

This was FUCKING GREAT. Absolutely FUCKING GREAT. Kudo wrestles like the Joshi version of Arn Anderson and systematically destroys Kong's arm. In what gets annoying in American matches, but feels cool in Japan because it doesn't happen very often, there's a ref bump, and Kudo gets a visual fall. Kudo's surprise powerbomb from the top rope into a reeaaaaalllly close call was tremendous. This also really had the feel of a world title match because of the pacing being a little slower than normal. I want to make sure I like this because it's as awesome as I think it is, and not just that it stands out because they were doing things not everyone was doing, but my instinct is to call this second to Kong/Kansai as the best Kong match of the year, and also call it a fairly high-end MOTYC, one I think I even liked better than Thunderqueen and the Dreamslam II main event. I'm not sure what the rep is for this match, but it deserves a genuine revisit and evaluation from anyone who hasn't watched it in a long time.

 

...

 

Yeah, chalk some of that instant reaction up to overexcitement over some things you don't normally see in this style being rolled out in this match. This is a great match, probably more so than I've seen it get credit for, but it's a shade below the very best matches of the year. But there are a lot of positives, and I still think this is worth a revisit.

Lioness Asuka vs Yumiko Hotta, AJW 3/26/95

 

My comments aren't overwhelmingly positive, but this is still worth checking out.

 

I thought this was really, really good. There's lots to like and I think some people will find it really easy to get into. The only problem for me is not the way this match is worked, but more the amount of time it got. It should have been 10 minutes at the most. The punches and headbutts and mat wrestling are all pretty awesome, but after a while, I felt like I had seen everything they were going to do and there was no reason for the match to keep going.

Aja Kong vs Kyoko Inoue, AJW 8/30/96

This is probably a lost classic. Aside from Kudo/Toyota, it's the best Joshi match I've seen in '96, and one of the better matches on the set overall. They pace this like a classic world title match and the selling from both is phenomenal, with lots of staggering, barely hit moves, etc. It's the kinda thing that really puts over the match as a big deal. Some tremendous nearfalls and counters and a very involved crowd. I'm being vague and should review it in depth sometime, but this is awesome.

[NintendoLogic]

I haven't watched it yet, but I downloaded Jaguar Yokota vs. Pantera Surena from FLIK's website. It took place in Mexico City and was worked like a lucha title match.

[KB8]

Of all of those, I'm pretty sure the only one I've seen is Hokuto/Yamada from 5/3/93 (taken from the thread in the '93 section):

 

I fell asleep the first time I tried to watch this and almost skipped over it. I'm glad I didn't because it was really good.

 

I liked how few momentum shifts they worked into it. There's basically the "feeling out" (with a nastiness to it -- Hokuto's crazy looking "snap" piledrivers) --> Yamada taking over and working the arm --> Hokuto applying another bandage to the shoulder and taking control after the breather --> Yamada spin kicking her in the fucking teeth --> finishing stretch.

 

I can sometimes be taken out of joshi because the comebacks and transitions occur so regularly, but I thought this was structured and laid out really simply and I enjoyed it quite a bit as a result.

So yeah, I enjoyed, and Hokuto has indeed been someone I've enjoyed quite a bit going through the '93 yearbook.

 

I'll try and watch at least one of the other ones there tonight.

[Chess Knight]

Aja Kong v Yumiko Hotta 1/24/94 belongs here, I think. Hope I'm not wrong about that match still being exceptional.

[El-P]

Aja Kong v Yumiko Hotta 1/24/94 belongs here, I think. Hope I'm not wrong about that match still being exceptional.

Is that the one where Aja beats the shit out of Hotta's hand and brutalizes her ? Is so, yes, amazing match.

[Chess Knight]

Aja Kong v Yumiko Hotta 1/24/94 belongs here, I think. Hope I'm not wrong about that match still being exceptional.

Is that the one where Aja beats the shit out of Hotta's hand and brutalizes her ? Is so, yes, amazing match.

 

Yeah. I remember pretty much cringing when Kong started to look like she was honest-to-God trying to tear out Hotta's fingers. I think Misawa/Kawada 6/3 prevents me from calling any other match that year a "match of the year contender," but Kong/Hotta's almost about as good as anything else I've seen from the year. I'd be surprised if I bought the eventual '94 yearbook and found ten better matches on it than that.

[NintendoLogic]

I mentioned Kong/Hotta in the other thread. I also mentioned the 8/22/85 Devil/Chiggy match.

[MJH]

I don't think Aja/Hotta is any more than maybe a Top 5 MOTYC for Zenjo in 1994, but it is fucking brutal and one of the best 'Joshi for Non-Joshi' matches you'll find.

 

The reality is that Joshi has far more stylistic variation than this thread is giving it credit for. Yoshida has stuff in ARSION that's up there with the best matwork-based matches that men have done other than the ultra-top-tier RINGS/whatever; Hokuto/Kandori is as great a big epic match as anything; Dream Rush Main is the perfect inter-promotional match; Kudo/Toyoda is one of, if not the, best death match ever; there're tonnes of great grudge matches; the best sprints are some of the best ever and still pretty 'state of the art' twenty years on; etc...

 

Really, the only company who had a better collection of matches in the early-mid '90s than AJW was the All Japan men, and there's almost certainly more variety amongst them.

[Loss]

Maybe this thread is playing into perception that everyone in Joshi wrestles exactly like Manami Toyota, but that's the exact myth we're attempting to dispel.

[El-P]

Maybe this thread is playing into perception that everyone in Joshi wrestles exactly like Manami Toyota, but that's the exact myth we're attempting to dispel.

As a guy who spent countless hours talking about joshi from 1999 to about 2002 on various forums including several specifically dedicated to the style (and with a numbers of people), it's a bit sad to see that in 2012, things have reverted to the point of having to argue and demonstrate that joshi isn't all Toyota/go-go-go/screaming.

[Guest Paul Kersey]

Thanks, I've wanted someone to do something like this for awhile. Ill try to watch some of these soon.

[Jingus]

Kudo/Toyoda certainly deserves a mention, because it also qualifies for the double hat trick of "deathmatch for people who don't like deathmatches". If there's ever been a better barbed wire match of any sort, then I haven't seen it.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't remember liking those Hokuto/Yamada or Aja/Kudo matches at all.

 

My suggestions:

 

Chigusa Nagayo vs. Leilani Kai, 8/21/86 and 4/27/87

Yukari Omori vs. Lioness Asuka, 4/15/87

Aja Kong/Bison Kimura vs. Bull Nakano/Grizzly Iwamoto, 8/19/90

Bull Nakano vs. Shinobu Kandori, chain match, 7/14/94

Aja Kong vs. Meiko Satomura, 9/5/99

Mariko Yoshida vs. Hiromi Yagi, 2/18/99

Mariko Yoshida vs. Yumi Fukawa, 5/4/99

Megumi Fujii vs. Mariko Yoshida, 5/24/03

[rzombie1988]

Let's put it this way, at best Kudo vs Aja was the 4th best match on the show. Kudo looked bad in all of her AJW matches. She was obviously not on the same level and she looked minor league. When you are getting shown up by the midcard matches, its time to pack it up. She looked much better against AJW opponents on FMW shows since the match quality on FMW shows was lower and there weren't other women who were vastly superior. Combat Toyoda was better than her for most of her career and that's not saying much. Kudo got by on her looks and charisma until her last 2 years where she became a good worker. For most of her career, she was like a poor woman's Onita.

 

As for recommendations:

 

- Omukai vs Aja from the first ARSION show - This is a really quick high energy match and the crowd is pretty hot. I really enjoyed this one and would have liked it more if the right person went over.

- LCO vs Ito/Watanabe cage match from 9/21/1997 - They took the cage match to a whole new level and did it a 2 weeks before Taker/HBK went into the cell. Tons of nasty bumps and highspots.

- Kudo vs Toyoda deathmatch - Probably the best deathmatch ever.

- Dump vs Chigusa hair matches - Both of these two are awesome. Off the charts heat. Dump is at her best here, especially in the first match. The first match is pro wrestling and watching the post match hair cut is brutal.

[Tim Cooke]

The Fujii vs. Yoshida match may be the greatest hybrid grappling/mma but still is a pro wrestling match ever. Puts the hype of Josh Barnett NYE 2011 match to shame.

[El-P]

For most of her career, she was like a poor woman's Onita.

That's absurd. She didn't get into Onita's spot of working deathmatches before 1995 or so. And she was better than he was at his own matches (and I'm a big Onita fan). But she never had much to work against (mostly Shark and her croonies). When she had quality opponents like Kandori, Oz or Combat, she simply delivered some of the best deathmatches ever.

 

As far as 93 goes, she looked as good if not better than lot of Zenjo girls during the interpromotionnal shows, and was certainly already better than the overrated Toyota & Yamada in 1993. Aja vs Kudo is a great fucking match. Kudo was working a more deliberate, stiffer pace, with more long term selling than most AJW girls. Combat Toyoda was never close to Kudo, and certainly not during the early days of FMW. She was a good power worker, but let's face it, she also looked good early on because she had Kudo bumping and selling for her. Both improved together, but as much as I like Combat, I wouldn't put her in the same category as Kudo.

 

Kudo was an excellent worker from 1993 to the time she retired, with a peak in 1996 as a great worker.

 

I second all your recommandations though. Great stuff all around.

[El-P]

The Fujii vs. Yoshida match may be the greatest hybrid grappling/mma but still is a pro wrestling match ever. Puts the hype of Josh Barnett NYE 2011 match to shame.

I still never have seen this. It's been pimped to me countless times.

[Loss]

Kudo was not as flashy as the AJW wrestlers, but she didn't have to be. Her command of the basics was so far above most of the AJW group. She reminds me of a female Norio Honaga more than a female Atsushi Onita.

[El-P]

It's even more impressive to see how good she became when you consider who she had to work with at first : Shark Tsuchiya, Miwa Sato, Crusher Maedomari (one of the most worthless worker ever), Tsuppari Mack and Yuki Morimatsu (of Jd' "fame"). Then she got Combat Toyoda and Reibun Amada who were at least pretty good. But when you work with and against mostly totally shitty workers day in and day out, it's not easy to progress. Kudo is probably one of the biggest overachiever in wrestling history.

[MJH]

Whilst I agree on her over-achievement, I don't buy that Kudo was better than Toyota or Yamada in 1993; I thought she was the weakest of the four in the DS1 main, for instance. On the other hand, fourth best for her match with Aja at St. Final seems strange. Third behind the top two, sure, but I sure can't recall any of the undercard being extraordinary.

 

What Joshi would really benefit from is a carefully selected (and match-ordered) comp, or something akin to Ditch's site. Most of the Zenjo tapes in circulation are comms, with the full cards, and by the time you get to the meat-and-potatoes on top - almost always the best and pimped matches - the rookies and mid-card will have often exasperated a newbie's patience. And even something like Dream Slam I, or any of the other big epic shows from the interpromotional era, are really fucking long. As great as any of the big AJPW matches are, I don't really want to sit through the first two-odd hours of the show to get to them, but their comms, and far more widely circulated TV blocks, had a lot more (most) of the dreck cut out, too.

[El-P]

Whilst I agree on her over-achievement, I don't buy that Kudo was better than Toyota or Yamada in 1993

Keep in mind I'm not the biggest fan of either of those two.

[FLIK]

but I sure can't recall any of the undercard being extraordinary.

Don't think they were on the same lvl as Kudo vs Aja but the 2 6 mans, Bull & LCO vs Cuty, Plum & Fukuoka and W-Inoue & Hotta vs Eagle, Rumi & Harley were both very good.

 

What Joshi would really benefit from is a carefully selected (and match-ordered) comp, or something akin to Ditch's site

...... http://flik.theditch.biz/wrestlingindeed2.htm not that I update anymore (for various reasons)

 

and there's Youtube

 

My buddy Doublemiz has hundreds of joshi matches up that get several thousand views http://www.youtube.com/user/DoubleMiz/videos and there's a bunch of other channels that are similar

 

Stuff like that is what I mean when talking about how lots of ppl still watch joshi it's just that very few talk about it.

[Loss]

Bull Nakano vs Devil Masami, JWP 4/18/93

 

My comments are a bit ambiguous here, but I've grown to LOVE this over time, and I think old school types will really dig this.

 

I like both Bull and Devil and appreciate what they were trying to do here, but it works better in theory than in practice. Really basic 70s/80s-style wrestling can be great, and they execute it well. This is a very good match. But it lacks the excitement and drama of some other Joshi of the year because it really feels behind the times. It's all about context. This would have looked better in a business downturn when the promotion was getting back to basics than in a time period when the new stuff being tried is getting over and working.

 

Technically, this may be the best women's match on the set, and this really is the blueprint on how to put together a great match. I just wished they'd mixed in a little of 1993, because it seems out of place.

 

I'm sure some will see this and have a drastically different opinion, which I can appreciate for sure. I don't want to insult this match. It's just not as exciting as I'd like 37 minutes of these two during this time to be.

 

...

 

This is really an interesting match, because it's hard to criticize something that well-worked with all these veteran touches that are so, so vacant in wrestling so, so much of the time, even among great workers. But at the same time, it's missing something I can't put my finger on. I'm really interested in reading more opinions on this because I'm conflicted. I would have raved about this on the 1996 yearbook, and here, it feels lacking. Hard to explain.

[rzombie1988]

Kudo was not as flashy as the AJW wrestlers, but she didn't have to be. Her command of the basics was so far above most of the AJW group. She reminds me of a female Norio Honaga more than a female Atsushi Onita.

Let's put it this way.

Compare her with her 1986 Zenjo classmates - Aja, KAORU, Bison, Combat, Mika Takahashi and Cooga. I'd put her above Cooga but thats not saying much.

Compare her with the 1987 class - Toyota, Yamada, Mita, Shimoda and Sachiko Nakamura. She would be 2nd from the bottom of that list as well. Watch the DS 1 match with Kudo/Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada and you can see how vastly inferior she was to Toyota and Yamada.

Compare her with the 1988 class - Kyoko, Takako, Yoshida. Takako would be the only one I'd go either way with at this stage of the game.

 

I think that tells you about all you need to know of her development.

 

Also, to make an obvious point clear, if you would switch her looks with Combat Toyoda or one of the other non-idol types, there's no way she ends up doing half the stuff she did.

[FLIK]

Let's put it this way.

Compare her with

I'd put her above everyone from all 3 of those clases except Aja, Toyota, Kyoko & Yoshida. Bison & Yamada i'd put on close to the same lvl if not the same. Takako behind but not by much.

 

Watch the DS 1 match with Kudo/Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada and you can see how vastly inferior she was to Toyota and Yamada

That was a team effort. Everyone stunk it up in that match and I don't think there's anyone who likes Kudo arguing that as a point in her favor.

 

Kudo looked bad in all of her AJW matches. She was obviously not on the same level and she looked minor league. When you are getting shown up by the midcard matches, its time to pack it up. She looked much better against AJW opponents on FMW shows since the match quality on FMW shows was lower and there weren't other women who were vastly superior.

If we're only counting her 90's run, she only even had like 10 AJW matches period in a 4 year span and most of those weren't against top shelf opponents. Judging her career on that completely misses the boat and "she only looked good on FMW shows because everyone else sucked" is a complete rubbish argument on multiple lvls.