Wrestling in Japan (Late 90s-Early 00s)

[tomk]

I don't think anyone who complained about Cena winning his very first match with Lesnar implied that he had to be just squashed like a bug then be squashed again... then be squashed again. And look like complete shit in the process. Which was basically how Ogawa vs Hash worked. One of the most depressing feud ever for a puro fan back then.

Yeah, this. The problem wasn't that Hashimoto lost to Ogawa, it's that he lost over and over again without getting his win back.

 

Also, it needs to be pointed out that Rocky didn't face Ivan Drago until after he killed Apollo Creed. And in the previous film, he got destroyed by Clubber Lang before getting his win back in the rematch. Either the Drago route or the Lang route would have been fine. Instead, they went the Thunderlips route.

 

Jan 4,1999 Tokyo Dome---Shinya Hashimoto NC Naoya Ogawa (now with one Pride "win") (6:58).Drawing 52,500

October 11, 1999 Tokyo Dome- NWA World Champ Naoya Ogawa (now 2-0 in Pride) TKO Shinya Hashimoto (13:10). Drawing 48,000

It's not that he lost again and again, but the way he was depicted in the loss. Less people came for the reamtch than the first singles. Even less showed up for the third.

 

Rocky wasn't a movie serial, it was one solid movie. No one left after Apollo Creed match to come back next week. Rocky wins at the end of the movie. Apollo Creed is essentially Terry Gibs as Slaughters tag partner getting eaten alive before Rocky comes in.

 

I wrote a big long post about how dumb it was to have Cena beat Brock. Brock beating Cena was where the money was at. They could have made it a year long program easy and could have squeezed 3-4 PPV matches out of it with no trouble.

There was no reason for them not to continue the program after the first match.

They could have easily turned it into a three match program.

People were far hotter to see a rematch than to see Lesnar stuck in a HHH series.

[NintendoLogic]

It's not that he lost again and again, but the way he was depicted in the loss. Less people came for the reamtch than the first singles. Even less showed up for the third.

Yes, Hashimoto getting destroyed time and time again hurt him. But you're underselling the importance of the idea that pro wrestlers are the strongest fighters and pro wrestling is the king of sports, which was very important to 90s New Japan but isn't at all to 2010s WWE. Also, look at other notable New Japan feuds from the time period. The Mutoh/Takada rematch drew less than the first one after Mutoh won the first time out. And Kawada (who was not the third most important guy in post-split All Japan) vs. New Japan stopped drawing when Kawada started losing.

 

Rocky wasn't a movie serial, it was one solid movie. No one left after Apollo Creed match to come back next week. Rocky wins at the end of the movie. Apollo Creed is essentially Terry Gibs as Slaughters tag partner getting eaten alive before Rocky comes in.

Rocky was a series of movies. And people did come back after he lost to Creed in the first movie.

 

There was no reason for them not to continue the program after the first match.

They could have easily turned it into a three match program.

People were far hotter to see a rematch than to see Lesnar stuck in a HHH series.

Which is a more compelling storyline?

"Who can beat Lesnar?"

or

"Who else can beat Lesnar?"

 

Looking at the Summerslam buyrate is instructive. It was way up in North America, indicating that Lesnar's name value is a plus for the big shows. But it was way down internationally. UFC isn't popular in most of the foreign markets where WWE runs PPV, so his only value there is as an unstoppable monster, which went out the window when he lost the first time out.

[El-P]

I wrote a big long post about how dumb it was to have Cena beat Brock. Brock beating Cena was where the money was at. They could have made it a year long program easy and could have squeezed 3-4 PPV matches out of it with no trouble.

There was no reason for them not to continue the program after the first match.

 

Why ? What was the big payoff left ? Cena has slayed Lesnar the Monster. Hell, he even joked during the post-match. There's no heat left. He beat him fair and square, Cena is better, end of story.

[Loss]

It's all a moot point. Brock didn't sign on for enough dates to justify him beating Cena anyway. Disappearing for a few months after beating him would have been pretty dumb.

[tomk]

Kawada (who was not the third most important guy in post-split All Japan) vs. New Japan stopped drawing when Kawada started losing.

At that point third biggest name in AJ behind Misawa and Kobashi---He was the number 3 guy, that AJ was left with number 3 guy on top doesn't change that the draw was #3 guy v Sasaki. And not sure what you mean by stopped drawing when KAwada started losing. It was a two Dome Show series, unless you are counting the 2005/06 matches as part of same feud. If we are doing that, then Lesnar won all the early matches in the Cena feud years ago.

 

Which is a more compelling storyline?

"Who can beat Lesnar?"

or

"Who else can beat Lesnar?"

 

Looking at the Summerslam buyrate is instructive. It was way up in North America, indicating that Lesnar's name value is a plus for the big shows. But it was way down internationally. UFC isn't popular in most of the foreign markets where WWE runs PPV, so his only value there is as an unstoppable monster, which went out the window when he lost the first time out.

Cena barely eked out a win in a no dq match that made Lesnar look superstrong. It's a match that made Lesnar look like an unstoppable monster.

 

New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 21, 1980 (20,000+)

WWWWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Ken Patera to a draw at 25:52 when, after Patera threw Backlund into referee Jack Lotz, referee Terry Terranova called for the bell; after the bout, Lotz was taken backstage on a stretcher

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 18, 1980

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Ken Patera via count-out at 15:37; Pat Patterson was the special referee for the bout

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 19, 1980 (near capacity crowd)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned WWF IC Champion Ken Patera in a Texas Death Match at 22:56 with a crossbody off the top; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Patera to the ring and Arnold Skaaland escorted Backlund; named Wrestling Observer's Match of the Year

Three match series with Patera never actually getting anything like a win.

This is something that at one point the WWF knew how to do well.

How many times did Eddy win in that Eddy v Rey series that reignited attendance?

Cena won the first match and people were hot to see a rematch.

Lesnar won the first match with HHH, does anyone want to see the rematch?

It's not about who gets the win, it's about how the match is worked.

 

 

I wrote last year about the Observer awards for feud of the year:

 

6. FEUD OF THE YEAR: I really don't understand CM Punk vs Cena getting votes here. It was a neat program leading to a match and a great match...after that it fell apart. I think a feud requires a program prolonged loner than that. Fuck Orton v Cm Punk lasted longer than Cena v Punk. Henry v Show or Lawler v Miz/Cole feel like they lasted long enough to be feuds. The failure of Punk v Cena is that the bookers didn't allow it to become a rivary or feud.

Cena v Lesnar was this years version of Cena v Punk. It was a really great build to a match and a perfect match. The WWE did nothing to follow up on it. It would have been super easy for Lesnar to claim BS and demand a rematch. Super easy for him to run in on Cena matches and hit Cena with ring steps (or have his fight team of FL guys in singlets run in for him) untill Cena agrees to a FMW style ring in a lake or cage. Outside of maybe AJ v Vicky, I'm not sure if the WWE has any interest in booking main event rivalry or feuds anymore.

[NintendoLogic]

The Eddy/Rey program did great ratings, but I have recollection of it doing much for attendance or buys.

 

If they had no intention of putting Lesnar over Cena, they should have held off on the match.

[Dylan Waco]

I suspect they had Lesnar going over originally and Vince tried to hardball him on more dates, he balked, and Vince called an audible. I can't prove it, but I have reason to believe that beyond just intuition.

[rvd356]

Lonvg time lurker here, 1st time poster, hope donvt embarass myself much.

 

Cena winning was the absolute right decision. He is the undisputed #1 guy in the promotion, and he had come off a lot of jobs, jobs that could make the kids lose some faith in him(similar to how I did when Hogan jobbed to Warrior @ Mania 6(bad bad decision in retrospect huh?). He was coming directly off a clean as a sheet job to The Rock in the most watched Wrestlemania of all time(still don't get that booking, but I'm hoping they do a trilogy, with John winning 2-1). not to mention putting over Punk all summer, and making a star and a clearly defined #1 face to the fans, and creating a foil for himself for years to come.

 

Basically if Lesnar was in for a REAL contracted year like Goldberg in '03(don't get me started on the stop/go booking of him) then yeah, the "Outsider" Lesnar needed the win. But as it is Lesnar is the modern day Abdullah the Butcher. Comes into the terroritory to boost buys/viewership by working top guys a few times a year, but is never positioned as THE top guy.

 

Cena will be main eventing 1 million+ buy Manias and breaking merchandise records for the next decade, while Lesnar will be doing shoot interviews cutting down WWE. I just hope hope hope they use Lesnars Mania program and all his dates to put over Bryan or Punk. Or if they must, a faux MMA exhibition with Taker. Please no H' rematch. Loved the Summerslam match, but only as a 1 off deal.

[kjh]

April 12, 1997- debuting Olympic silver medalist Naoya Ogawa TKO Shinya Hashimoto (9:25). This is pre-Ogawa working "shooter gimmick" although he is being positioned as future "hot" Hash rival

 

Jan 4,1999 Tokyo Dome---Shinya Hashimoto NC Naoya Ogawa (now with one Pride "win") (6:58).Drawing 52,500

October 11, 1999 Tokyo Dome- NWA World Champ Naoya Ogawa (now 2-0 in Pride) TKO Shinya Hashimoto (13:10). Drawing 48,000

April 7, 2000 Tokyo Dome---Naoya Ogawa (now 3-0 in Pride) KO Shinya Hashimoto (15:09). Drawing a heavily papered 40,000

 

and well the non-Dome business crashed during this feud too.

It's worth noting that Ogawa being shot straight to the top in April 1997 was a last minute desperation move. They needed something special after the company had egg on their face when they had announced Hashimoto vs. Ken Shamrock, only for the WWF to sign the shooter from right under their nose. It worked as the show drew a near sell out of 50,500 fans.

 

You're also missing two matches from their two feuds:

 

May 3, 1997 Osaka Dome - IWGP Champ Shinya Hashimoto beat Naoya Ogawa (10:20) via submission. Drawing 43,000.

Jan 4, 2000 Tokyo Dome - Shinya Hashimoto & Takashi Iizuka beat Naoya Ogawa & Kazunari Murakami (8:59) when Iizuka beat Murakami via sleeperhold. Drawing 53,500, though wasn't the main event.

 

Regarding Nagata vs. Cro Cop, the New Japan side thought Nagata would win as they had been taught that an amateur wrestler with submission knowledge always beats a kickboxer. What they didn't realise was Cro Cop had been learning takedown defence on the side secretly.

[Ditch]

Regarding Nagata vs. Cro Cop, the New Japan side thought Nagata would win as they had been taught that an amateur wrestler with submission knowledge always beats a kickboxer. What they didn't realise was Cro Cop had been learning takedown defence on the side secretly.

I can understand that.

 

But there's zero excuse for booking the Fedor fight, especially in 2003.

[tomk]

The Eddy/Rey program did great ratings, but I have recollection of it doing much for attendance or buys.

 

Was succesful program for increasing attendance.

 

While it was a houseshow main event (where it did increase attendance), it was never put into a PPV main event position to effect buys. As a complete aside, (and not sure if live PPV attendance suggests anything about the home PPV audience) I was at Summerslam 2005 and about 11% of the audience got up and left after the Eddie v Rey match like it was the Bruno matchat MSG and everything after was the curfew limit match. It absolutely blew my mind since this was people not only leaving before the Orton/Undertaker match and hometown guy Batista but treating the Eddie v Rey as the main draw on a card that had biggest draw in wrestling ever in Hogan. Also seemed preposterous to me since, DC is not southwest.

 

It's worth noting that Ogawa being shot straight to the top in April 1997 was a last minute desperation move. They needed something special after the company had egg on their face when they had announced Hashimoto vs. Ken Shamrock, only for the WWF to sign the shooter from right under their nose. It worked as the show drew a near sell out of 50,500 fans.

I included match but deliberately seperated it as , really Ogawa wasn't working the shooter (disrespectful monster) gimmick that he had in the later series.

Once NJ invested the money in Ogawa they were going to need to find a way to make the investment back and package and market him, but first match is seperate from the series.

 

I was listing only the Dome singles matches and I could see someone arguing that the tag was the draw for thr Jan 4th show.

[kjh]

Regarding Nagata vs. Cro Cop, the New Japan side thought Nagata would win as they had been taught that an amateur wrestler with submission knowledge always beats a kickboxer. What they didn't realise was Cro Cop had been learning takedown defence on the side secretly.

I can understand that.

 

But there's zero excuse for booking the Fedor fight, especially in 2003.

Inoki had more riding on Bom-Ba-Ye being a ratings success?

[MJH]

Regarding Nagata vs. Cro Cop, the New Japan side thought Nagata would win as they had been taught that an amateur wrestler with submission knowledge always beats a kickboxer. What they didn't realise was Cro Cop had been learning takedown defence on the side secretly.

... which never came into it. Nagata didn't even shoot for the takedown at any point - Mirko blocked a quick clinch attempt and high-kicked him. But in fairness to them, Mirko was coming off being taken to a draw by Takada of all people, a worse shootfighter than even his biggest detractors would consider him to be as a wrestler. As Ditch said, though, putting him against Fedor (the fucking Pride champion) was lamb to the slaughter 101.

[rvd356]

Regarding Nagata vs. Cro Cop, the New Japan side thought Nagata would win as they had been taught that an amateur wrestler with submission knowledge always beats a kickboxer. What they didn't realise was Cro Cop had been learning takedown defence on the side secretly.

... which never came into it. Nagata didn't even shoot for the takedown at any point - Mirko blocked a quick clinch attempt and high-kicked him. But in fairness to them, Mirko was coming off being taken to a draw by Takada of all people, a worse shootfighter than even his biggest detractors would consider him to be as a wrestler. As Ditch said, though, putting him against Fedor (the fucking Pride champion) was lamb to the slaughter 101.

 

I guess it was just to show nagata as a badass who would take an asskicking from literally THE two toughest men in the world at that point. I give Yuji credit afterall, he has giant brass balls to get in the ring with those two guys. Also its a little rub just to take on 'the best'. It would have been ideal to feed Yuji some 'tomato cans' so he could actually, you know, win a fight.

 

Also a fight that was interesting that I have not seen mentioned was the Liger fight. He wore the heavyweight mask of course. He went for the freaking Coppo Kick(spelling?), missed of course(would have made his Legend 10x if he had hit it and KO'd the guy) and got mounted and beat down if I remember correctly.

[Loss]

Who did Liger face, and what was the date?

[MJH]

He only did the one vs. Suzuki, right?

[FLIK]

Still, Nagata never being as popular as Hashimoto is often blamed on the KO. Even without the Ko, I doubt he was gonna be the next Rock.

Thing to remember is this all happened soon into his very first major push as a legit top guy in the company so he was doomed from the start. He was crazy over at the start of it and very much looking like the guy who was gonna carry the company into the future when he won the 01 G1 then 4 months later the Cro Cop thing happened.

 

Getting booked in 2 60 min draws vs Chono & Nakanishi during his title reign didn't help either as he easily should have gone over both at the time & a lot of his other defenses weren't against the strongest of challengers. Guys like Murakami, Nishimura & Barnett.

 

Once his title run was done he wouldn't even challenge for the IWGP for another 4 years

[Ditch]

I think the 60 minute broadways, while problematic in quality terms, didn't hurt. Instead they served to make the reign more epic and distinguish it from the standard Hashimoto-era 15-20 minute title matches. Also, Barnett was a strong challenger in the context of NJ vs MMA, and Nishimura was an upper-midcarder booked to get a title shot at a mid-size venue.

 

What hurt the reign was the number of stars who left in the previous 5 years: Hashimoto, Mutoh, Kojima, Tenryu (who was around off-and-on through the '90s), Yamazaki. The main roster was weaker. Maybe they could have had Tenzan challenge, but it's not like NJ's roster was full of star power that didn't challenge Nagata. Other than getting a defense against someone from AJ or NOAH, I'm not sure what more NJ could have done with Nagata's reign.

 

For reference, the 2002 G-1: http://www.purolove.com/njpw/history/g1climax02.php

 

Tanahashi, Yoshie and Kenzo Suzuki were in no position to challenge. Koshinaka had no steam. Nagata defended against the rest except Tenzan.

 

Also its a little rub just to take on 'the best'.

Ummmm... no.

[NintendoLogic]

At that point third biggest name in AJ behind Misawa and Kobashi---He was the number 3 guy, that AJ was left with number 3 guy on top doesn't change that the draw was #3 guy v Sasaki. And not sure what you mean by stopped drawing when KAwada started losing. It was a two Dome Show series, unless you are counting the 2005/06 matches as part of same feud. If we are doing that, then Lesnar won all the early matches in the Cena feud years ago.

Meltzer: "But years later, in a similar situation–the first All Japan vs. New Japan singles main event, Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kensuke Sasaki, New Japan put the outsider over. In doing so, they got a sellout the second time as well. But after Sasaki went over in the rematch, Kawada was never anywhere close to the level of a draw for New Japan again."

 

Also, I'm a bit confused by your assertion that it took someone as short as Sasaki for Kawada to be a credible opponent. Kawada was perfectly credible against Doc and Vader and Stan Hansen and Gary Albright. Who on the New Japan roster was too big for him to go up against?

 

Was succesful program for increasing attendance.

 

While it was a houseshow main event (where it did increase attendance)

According to this, the only show Eddy/Rey main evented was the 6/21 Smackdown taping. Eddy wasn't consistently main eventing until his program with Batista.

[Loss]

Here's a list of all the MMA that it sounds like needs to be featured between 1997 and 2003. Is this complete? Should anything be added?

 

What I want to capture is MMA that is important to the story of pro wrestling, not just MMA that's good MMA.

 

1997

Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/97)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Conan Silvera (UFC Ultimate Japan 12/21/97)

 

1998

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Carlos Newton (PRIDE 06/24/98)

Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/98)

 

1999

Naoya Ogawa vs Gary Goodridge (PRIDE 07/04/99)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie (PRIDE 11/21/99)

 

2000

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Hans Nijman (PRIDE 01/30/00)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Don Chase (Extreme Shootout 04/01/00)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Will Childs (Extreme Shootout 04/01/00)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie (PRIDE 05/01/00)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Mark Kerr (PRIDE 05/01/00)

Mark Coleman vs Kazuyuki Fujita (PRIDE 05/01/00)

Kendo Kashin vs Ryan Gracie (PRIDE 08/27/00)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Ken Shamrock (PRIDE 08/27/00)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Renzo Gracie (PRIDE 08/27/00)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Gilbert Yvel (PRIDE 12/09/00)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Ryan Gracie (PRIDE 12/23/00)

 

Are all 7 of these necessary?

Great Sasuke & Daijiro Matsui vs Akira Shoji & Kaoru Uno (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

Bas Rutten & Alexander Otsuka vs Naoki Sano & Ricco Rodriguez (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

Shinya Hashimoto vs Gary Goodridge (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

Mark Coleman & Mark Kerr vs Takashi Iizukia & Yuji Nagata (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

Naoya Ogawa vs Tadao Yasuda (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Kendo Kashin (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

Nobuhiko Takada & Keiji Muto vs Ken Shamrock & Don Frye (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00)

 

2001

Tadao Yasuda vs Masaaki Satake (PRIDE 03/25/01)

Yoshihiro Takayama vs Kazayuki Fujita (PRIDE 05/27/01)

Kendo Kashin vs Ryan Gracie (PRIDE 07/29/01)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Mirko Cro Cop (K-1 08/19/01)

Yoshihiro Takayama vs Semmy Schilt (PRIDE 12/23/01)

Kendo Kashin vs Shingo Koyasu (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01)

Yuji Nagata vs Mirko Cro Cop (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01)

Antonio Inoki slaps everyone (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01)

 

2002

Bob Sapp vs Yoshihisa Yammamoto (PRIDE 04/28/02)

Bob Sapp vs Kiyoshi Tamura (PRIDE 06/23/02)

Yoshihiro Takayama vs Don Frye (PRIDE 21 06/23/02)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Tadao Yasuda (UFO Legend 08/08/02)

Bob Sapp vs Antonio Nogueira (PRIDE 08/28/02)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Mirko Cro Cop (PRIDE 08/28/02)

Yoshihiro Takayama vs Bob Sapp (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/02)

Shinsuke Nakamura vs Daniel Gracie (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/02)

 

2003

Shinsuke Nakamura vs Jan Nortje (NJPW Ultimate Crush 05/02/03)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Manabu Nakanishi (PRIDE 05/02/03)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Fedor Emelianenko (PRIDE 06/08/03)

Shinsuke Nakamura vs Shane Eitner (Jungle Fight 09/13/03)

[Eduardo]

Since your including the rise of Sakuraba, wouldn't you like to include his downfall against Wanderlei Silva? The key fights being the first two:

 

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Wanderlei Silva (PRIDE 13 3/25/01)

Wanderlei Silva vs Kazushi Sakuraba (PRIDE 17 11/3/01)

 

EDIT: What about this fight. Just an idea, not sure if this would be something that would fit your criteria:

 

Kiyoshi Tamura vs Frank Shamrock (Rings - Rise 2nd 4/23/99)

[MJH]

If you're talking strictly pro-wrestling, I don't think you need most of them at all. The Saku thing is great fun, but outside of "his success lead others to try it", it's direct affect on wrestling itself is pretty minimal. The Takada matches can all be scratched though, they brought the early crowds but that's it.

 

I can understand including Fujita's wins over Nijman, Kerr, Shamrock and maybe Yvel too. Kerr was pushed as a top guy in the early Prides and obviously Ken was a big early name. If he just beat Nijman, for instance, it's harder to imagine him getting the NJ push as hard.

 

Takayama's fight with Frye is definitely worth including; as are Takayama's post-match interviews and such from the time where you can tell he's just, y'know...

 

You don't really need the Sapp fights, just the sense of how big he was at the time and a few highlights. If you want a couple of fights though I'd keep the Nog fight and use the wins over Hoost in K1 (a much bigger deal) rather than the squashes of Tamura and Yamamoto.

 

I don't remember the Nakamura fights at all other than that takedown -> knee he loves to eat comes from a loss.

[WingedEagle]

I'd also considering adding Sakuraba vs. Vovchanchn on 5/1/2000, perhaps just the finish when it was stopped after round 1. Following up 90 minutes with Gracie versus a monster like Igor? Nuts.

[FLIK]

You don't really need the Sapp fights, just the sense of how big he was at the time and a few highlights. If you want a couple of fights though I'd keep the Nog fight and use the wins over Hoost in K1 (a much bigger deal) rather than the squashes of Tamura and Yamamoto.

Ah yeah, totally forgot about the rise of Sapp. For his non wrestling stuff, THIS is all you really need http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXPfVtb6lrg

 

Ignoring the fact that it was bad for business or rather just that NJPW was stupid in terms of pushing him so hard with out locking him into a contract to ensure he'd stick around long enough for it to pay off, I totally loved his initial New Japan run.

 

The 10/13/03 Elimination match with the Inoki Army of Bob Sapp, Takayama, Minoru Suzuki, Nakamura & Fujita vs Tenzan, Nagata, Nakanishi, Tanahashi & Seiji Sakaguchi is one of my favorite NJPW matches ever.

[Loss]

Wow, what is the context for SAPP TIME?