Renaming the Bruiser Brody Best Brawler Award

[goodhelmet]

Oh, and take this shit to the Bruiser Brody thread. This is a discussion about the 200 guys better than Brody at brawling.

[King Solomon]

Unless you were there time and place and I don't know who was or wasn't then you really have a limited understanding on why someone was over the way they were. Brody was adored in the late 70's -80's for a reason and that's beacuse he was a GREAT worker!!

I happened to have grown up in Texas during the peak of World Class and Brody was over... because he had a great look. It wasn't because he was a great worker because he left you empty back then just as he does now on videotape. You wished that you were given more than you were given. He didn't leave me wanting to see more Brody, he left me wishing someone else was in his place so the match would be better.

 

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I grew up watching all these Mexican jumping beans (btw I am Chicano) that were acrobactics but they had very little physical credibility and to me when I pay a ticket to watch wrestling I want to pay for a match that makes sense in a Kayfabe standpoint not two guys flipping, jumping and somersaulting their way all they way to the finish. This is why I never got in to the Tiger Mask-Dynamite matches.

So you have an inherent bias against Mexican wrestlers and the cruisers. Nothing wrong with that but your disdain for the luchadores doesn't make Brody any better.

 

Brody had an aura that a lot of wrestlers today wish they had. He also could wrestle on the mat and he had vicious kicks. Too many guys have said that worked tight and stiff for me to buy into the theory that his offense sucked. He also had very good leaping ability, just look at his dropkicks.

Someone already said it... who are you going to believe "Some wrestler or your lying eyes?" If Brody's dropkick knocks you out. Cool. However, if you are going to call him a great mat worker, yo ugotta come with the specific examples because he is pretty much the definition of the drizzling shits on the mat.

 

 

Oh I'll watch the matches and then break it down for you guys just need some time. Ric Flair St. louis match at the checker is one example. Another St. Louis match with a Blackwell run in is another.

[King Solomon]

The simple fact of the matter is that we have different criteria. When we say a wrestler is better or worse, the criteria is what matters to us, whether it's having a match with coherent storytelling, having offense that look realistic, selling well and consistently, bumping big, or having a wide moveset.

 

Everyone's criteria are different. Different things matter to different people.

 

But since I don't have to work with the wrestler in question, I care a hell of a lot more about what people WATCHING the matches think than what people not watching the matches think, even if those people are other wrestlers.

 

I understand that a Wrestlers veiwpoint is the be all end all but to say they don't matter at all is just plain ridiculous

[Matt D]

Why?

[King Solomon]

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I watch the matches as well but to be honest I'm all Mid South right now ansd I have to break from that to re watch Brody. I watched my Brody Disc last year and I remember still being impressed by him. If you guys can't handle a veiw point that disagrees with your small world then I don't know what to tell you but I don't go along just to get along.

[King Solomon]

Why?

 

meant to say that a Wrestlers veiwpoint isn't the be all end all but it still does have weight behind it

[Matt D]

In my mind, the only thing it has weight on, even a little, is when it comes to "leading matches."

 

For some people that doesn't matter at all, since they care about great matches, and if someone happened to be lucky enough to be led in great matches by a ton of different opponents, over a span of years, then why wouldn't they be great?

 

Maybe someone who hits softly but looks like they have great strikes should get more credit than someone who just hits hard in order to have good looking strikes? Maybe?

 

Maybe if we're in an era or territory where we have very very little footage to look at and all we have to go on is what other wrestlers say?

 

But really, we're talking very few situations where what other wrestlers say matters in the least.

[goodhelmet]

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I watch the matches as well but to be honest I'm all Mid South right now ansd I have to break from that to re watch Brody. I watched my Brody Disc last year and I remember still being impressed by him. If you guys can't handle a veiw point that disagrees with your small world then I don't know what to tell you but I don't go along just to get along.

 

Dude, we have tons of threads here where people disagree and continue to disagree. We just want you to either stop posting as if your word is gospel or actually break shit down. Right now, you are speaking in platitudes and I am the king of platitudes. Give us some examples so we can see what you are seeing because after watching close to 100 Brody matches for the 80s project, we actually gave you specific examples of why we think he sucks.

[WingedEagle]

I think there's definite value in what other wrestlers thought of a given worker. Now ID'ing that value is open to much interpretation as well as a thorough reading on BS meter -- as others have noted this can give you insight into which guys were close outside of the ring, who's peers thought he worked lightly, who was perceived as a good draw, easy to work with or a genuinely great worker.

 

But none of that means anyone has to accept the boys' opinion on who was a great worker as fact.

[Al]

9 & 10. The Moondogs

- First, you have some of the greatest brawls I have ever seen against the Fabulous Ones. Hell, I should have put the Fabs right there. Then, a decade later, they rip it up for a year against Jerry Lawler & Jeff Jarrett.

Obviously Larry Latham (Spot). But then you have Ed White, Randy Colley, and whoever Moondog Spike was. Any one of them in particular?

[King Solomon]

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I watch the matches as well but to be honest I'm all Mid South right now ansd I have to break from that to re watch Brody. I watched my Brody Disc last year and I remember still being impressed by him. If you guys can't handle a veiw point that disagrees with your small world then I don't know what to tell you but I don't go along just to get along.

 

Dude, we have tons of threads here where people disagree and continue to disagree. We just want you to either stop posting as if your word is gospel or actually break shit down. Right now, you are speaking in platitudes and I am the king of platitudes. Give us some examples so we can see what you are seeing because after watching close to 100 Brody matches for the 80s project, we actually gave you specific examples of why we think he sucks.

 

 

Dude I have admitted that I need to rewatch Brody, but me liking him has nothing to do with faded memories long gone by, I just watched this cat a year ago and in my recollection he was awesome. I will watch this guy again hopefully by the end of the weekend. I never said my word was Gospel, again quit emotionalizing the argument. Re read my posts as I admitted I can see where people think he is overrated but to say he was terrible is a huge stretch. Again stick to what I said not what you think I meant. For me he is top 20 but I understand if others don't rate him that way but to say he sucked is kinda a credibility loser.

[Dylan Waco]

Oh, and take this shit to the Bruiser Brody thread. This is a discussion about the 200 guys better than Brody at brawling.

I don't see any reason we should restrict it to 200. People can keep adding on to my baseline.

[goodhelmet]

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I watch the matches as well but to be honest I'm all Mid South right now ansd I have to break from that to re watch Brody. I watched my Brody Disc last year and I remember still being impressed by him. If you guys can't handle a veiw point that disagrees with your small world then I don't know what to tell you but I don't go along just to get along.

 

Dude, we have tons of threads here where people disagree and continue to disagree. We just want you to either stop posting as if your word is gospel or actually break shit down. Right now, you are speaking in platitudes and I am the king of platitudes. Give us some examples so we can see what you are seeing because after watching close to 100 Brody matches for the 80s project, we actually gave you specific examples of why we think he sucks.

 

 

Dude I have admitted that I need to rewatch Brody, but me liking him has nothing to do with faded memories long gone by, I just watched this cat a year ago and in my recollection he was awesome. I will watch this guy again hopefully by the end of the weekend. I never said my word was Gospel, again quit emotionalizing the argument. Re read my posts as I admitted I can see where people think he is overrated but to say he was terrible is a huge stretch. Again stick to what I said not what you think I meant. For me he is top 20 but I understand if others don't rate him that way but to say he sucked is kinda a credibility loser.

 

Then my words will have no credibility for you because I think he actively sucked. He ruined matches. Everything I hold dear about pro wrestling, he was not good at any of them. If Bruiser Brody is what you like about wrestling, that's cool but that is a credibility loser with us. When you recommend people watch matches, I am going to think to myself... well that dude likes shitty Bruiser Brody matches. I am not going to take him seriously. You have every right to feel the same way about me as well. That's very cool.

 

Even his promos sucked. You see this crazy, wildman with a voice like Mike Tyson... except with the part about wanting to eat your children.

[Dylan Waco]

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I watch the matches as well but to be honest I'm all Mid South right now ansd I have to break from that to re watch Brody. I watched my Brody Disc last year and I remember still being impressed by him. If you guys can't handle a veiw point that disagrees with your small world then I don't know what to tell you but I don't go along just to get along.

 

Dude, we have tons of threads here where people disagree and continue to disagree. We just want you to either stop posting as if your word is gospel or actually break shit down. Right now, you are speaking in platitudes and I am the king of platitudes. Give us some examples so we can see what you are seeing because after watching close to 100 Brody matches for the 80s project, we actually gave you specific examples of why we think he sucks.

 

 

Dude I have admitted that I need to rewatch Brody, but me liking him has nothing to do with faded memories long gone by, I just watched this cat a year ago and in my recollection he was awesome. I will watch this guy again hopefully by the end of the weekend. I never said my word was Gospel, again quit emotionalizing the argument. Re read my posts as I admitted I can see where people think he is overrated but to say he was terrible is a huge stretch. Again stick to what I said not what you think I meant. For me he is top 20 but I understand if others don't rate him that way but to say he sucked is kinda a credibility loser.

 

Best not to accuse others of emotionalizing things when you are claiming others have no credibility because they think one of your favorite fake fighters sucks. Especially when the people in question have watched as much or more of the guy in question in the last couple of years than anyone on the earth.

 

I would like to hear your thoughts on those St. Louis matches though. I watched all the Brody v. Flair St. Louis matches about a month ago. The best of the bunch is an okay match. The other two are pretty mediocre by the standards of Flair matches from that period. Brody is over as hell in St. Louis and the matches benefit dramatically from that and even still I left feeling that Brody was one of Flair's worst opponents from the era that we multiple matches of footage from.

[King Solomon]

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I watch the matches as well but to be honest I'm all Mid South right now ansd I have to break from that to re watch Brody. I watched my Brody Disc last year and I remember still being impressed by him. If you guys can't handle a veiw point that disagrees with your small world then I don't know what to tell you but I don't go along just to get along.

 

Dude, we have tons of threads here where people disagree and continue to disagree. We just want you to either stop posting as if your word is gospel or actually break shit down. Right now, you are speaking in platitudes and I am the king of platitudes. Give us some examples so we can see what you are seeing because after watching close to 100 Brody matches for the 80s project, we actually gave you specific examples of why we think he sucks.

 

 

Dude I have admitted that I need to rewatch Brody, but me liking him has nothing to do with faded memories long gone by, I just watched this cat a year ago and in my recollection he was awesome. I will watch this guy again hopefully by the end of the weekend. I never said my word was Gospel, again quit emotionalizing the argument. Re read my posts as I admitted I can see where people think he is overrated but to say he was terrible is a huge stretch. Again stick to what I said not what you think I meant. For me he is top 20 but I understand if others don't rate him that way but to say he sucked is kinda a credibility loser.

 

Best not to accuse others of emotionalizing things when you are claiming others have no credibility because they think one of your favorite fake fighters sucks. Especially when the people in question have watched as much or more of the guy in question in the last couple of years than anyone on the earth.

 

I would like to hear your thoughts on those St. Louis matches though. I watched all the Brody v. Flair St. Louis matches about a month ago. The best of the bunch is an okay match. The other two are pretty mediocre by the standards of Flair matches from that period. Brody is over as hell in St. Louis and the matches benefit dramatically from that and even still I left feeling that Brody was one of Flair's worst opponents from the era that we multiple matches of footage from.

 

 

I'm gonna start with Brody five disc Japan set first hopefully by the weekend. I'll watch the Checkerdome match right after.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ya gotta love Dylan making sure he didn't include HHH on his giant list of everyone.

[Dylan Waco]

Ya gotta love Dylan making sure he didn't include HHH on his giant list of everyone.

I could have included him or Michaels. Both are flawed wrestlers, but I think better brawlers at their best (and even on average) than Brody.

 

Having said that I was trying to stick with relatively non-controversial picks.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ya gotta love Dylan making sure he didn't include HHH on his giant list of everyone.

I could have included him or Michaels. Both are flawed wrestlers, but I think better brawlers at their best (and even on average) than Brody.

 

Having said that I was trying to stick with relatively non-controversial picks.

 

I was making a joke, bro. As in you not wanting to cross contaminate both of your giant lists of everyone.

[Dylan Waco]

Ya gotta love Dylan making sure he didn't include HHH on his giant list of everyone.

I could have included him or Michaels. Both are flawed wrestlers, but I think better brawlers at their best (and even on average) than Brody.

 

Having said that I was trying to stick with relatively non-controversial picks.

 

I was making a joke, bro. As in you not wanting to cross contaminate both of your giant lists of everyone.

 

You didn't think my "non-controversial pick" line was a joke?

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ya gotta love Dylan making sure he didn't include HHH on his giant list of everyone.

I could have included him or Michaels. Both are flawed wrestlers, but I think better brawlers at their best (and even on average) than Brody.

 

Having said that I was trying to stick with relatively non-controversial picks.

 

I was making a joke, bro. As in you not wanting to cross contaminate both of your giant lists of everyone.

 

You didn't think my "non-controversial pick" line was a joke?

 

Hard to tell with you at times. You're as dry as a fucking good martini.

[EricR]

Dude I have admitted that I need to rewatch Brody, but me liking him has nothing to do with faded memories long gone by, I just watched this cat a year ago and in my recollection he was awesome. I will watch this guy again hopefully by the end of the weekend. I never said my word was Gospel, again quit emotionalizing the argument. Re read my posts as I admitted I can see where people think he is overrated but to say he was terrible is a huge stretch. Again stick to what I said not what you think I meant. For me he is top 20 but I understand if others don't rate him that way but to say he sucked is kinda a credibility loser.

 

I am dying to know the other 19.

[jdw]

Please don't insult the skill of bumping by referring to whatever the hell it was that Brody did as bumping.

 

Thank you.

 

John

[jdw]

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

Damn... this thread if full of great quotes.

 

John

[jdw]

To me, the ur-example of wrestlers having loopy opinions is Terry Funk saying that Masato Tanaka was better than the All Japan boys. Who you gonna believe, the Funker or your lying eyes?

I believe the first time that Terry expressed this opinion was to Dave and me in the "dressing trailer" after the 8/1/96 FMW card.

 

Dave literally laughed... at Terry. I was too polite to laugh - I just had a big smile on my face.

 

At which point Terry smiled sheepishly to acknowledge he knew that we knew he was exaggerating.

 

Now the year before just after the end of the Weekly Pro Wrestling Dome Show, Terry afterwards said "those All Japan boys are the best I've ever seen" with no prompting from us and while he was sober (i.e. before he packed away all the beers over dinner with us later that evening)... so who knows when Terry was saying what he really thought.

 

John

[jdw]

Unless you were there time and place and I don't know who was or wasn't then you really have a limited understanding on why someone was over the way they were.

Maybe rather than the 100 brawlers better than Brody we could have a thread of the 100 cliched defenses of workers who aren't as good as people thought they were back in the day. This is right out of it.

 

John