Wrestling Culture Podcast #1

[Dylan Waco]

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc

 

 

The honorable Dave Musgrave has carried me to a quality discussion of the WON HoF. We touch on all kinds of stuff, candidates that aren't on the ballot, guys who are on the ballot and maybe aren't that strong, guys who will be on the ballot and how they may fair, who we think should go in, who we think will go in, et. We plan on doing more of these in the future on a wide variety of subjects so I figure this deserves it's own thread and I got the green light from Loss so here it is. Enjoy, criticize, comment, et.~!!!

[Kostka]

Link doesn't work for me.

 

Edit: Nevermind, got it.

[JerryvonKramer]

That link has been truncated, doesn't work

 

Here is a link that led me to get it via itunes.

 

http://wallsofjerichoholic.blogspot.com/20...ecause-you.html

[puropotsy]

That link has been truncated, doesn't work

 

Here is a link that led me to get it via itunes.

 

http://wallsofjerichoholic.blogspot.com/20...ecause-you.html

Thanis for posting this link! And the one I posted should work now.

[JerryvonKramer]

Could listen to you guys talk about wrestling history all day. Still only 1:17 into the first one and think it is great.

 

Just one question: what was jdw's involvement in the original WO 1996 Hall of Fame list?

[Dylan Waco]

Could listen to you guys talk about wrestling history all day. Still only 1:17 into the first one and think it is great.

 

Just one question: what was jdw's involvement in the original WO 1996 Hall of Fame list?

John could explain it better but basically Meltzer and him were on a plane ride to Japan. Either to kill time or because Dave had the idea and wanted to hash it out with someone else or a combo of both they ended up running down a list of names effectively establishing the first class.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing that interests me looking at the original 120 is a couple of names on there aren't 100% sure fire picks.

 

You guys homed in on Stu Hart and Dynamite Kid, the name that jumped out at me (naturally) was Ted DiBiase. Why? Well, when you look at the names that aren't there -- Tully, Arn, Barry Windham, Rude, Hennig -- and when you dismiss a guy like Edge out of hand, you then have to think about what puts his career over any of those guys.

 

The more I look at it, the more it sticks out. You know me, probably the biggest DiBiase mark left, but it seems odd.

 

And where the hell is Baba? I should probably take a long at that WON HoF thread I've been stoically avoiding since I got here.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd be shocked if Baba wasn't in on the original class.

 

I think Dibiase is one of the "weaker" first run candidates, but I have no problem with him being in. He's clearly a better candidate than Tully, Arn, Barry, Rude and Hennig. Dibiase was on the same level in the ring as all of those guys and was clearly a bigger draw and more substantial figure than all of them as well.

 

I actually think in some ways Steamboat is a "worse" candidate than Dibiase. Though again he's someone who should obviously be in.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dude, I've been shot down on these very boards for even mentioning Teddy in the same breath as Arn.

 

Baba is on there here: http://www.pwi-online.com/pages/hallofame.html

 

But for some reason is missing from the Wiki entry.

[JerryvonKramer]

Two more things:

 

1. On the subject of Murdoch, Funk and Ivan Kollof all being travelling "here today, gone tomorrow" type workers, have you ever played Total Extreme Wrestling with the Death of the Territories mod? (the only way to play it). I only mention this because all three of those guys, Murdoch and Funk in particular (as well as Gordy) will only ever take short term deals. I mean they wont sign for more than 3 months. I don't know if that was hard-wired by the modders, but has always struck me as great attention to detail.

 

2. If Sting is still a question, then why was Vader a shoo in candidate in 1996? Is Vader obviously a stronger candidate than Sting? And if so how? Seems hard to argue that if you make drawing figure of 90-93 count against Sting, which ALSO coincide with Vader's time on top.

 

I'd say if Vader is in, Sting has to be in.

[Loss]

Vader is the best superheavyweight of all time. He was also a star in Europe, Mexico and Japan. Much more of a first-class pick type than Sting.

[FLIK]

2. If Sting is still a question, then why was Vader a shoo in candidate in 1996? Is Vader obviously a stronger candidate than Sting? And if so how? Seems hard to argue that if you make drawing figure of 90-93 count against Sting, which ALSO coincide with Vader's time on top.

....Japan. Up until 92 he was still woking New Japan reg whear he'd allready been a huge star & 3 time IWGP champ & held the tag belts, then in 93 he was working on top in UWFI and for whatever it's worth he was a main eventer in Germany for the CWA too during the early 90's.

 

Love Sting, think he should absolutely be in but Vader blows him away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate.

[JerryvonKramer]

I wonder if it is possible to privilege Japanese stuff and territories too much, at the expensive of the American majors.

 

I'm not buying this line that Vader "blows Sting away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate".

 

Why? Because imagine for a second that Sting had his EXACT same career, only in AJPW or NJPW rather than Crockett / WCW. I know that sounds weird, but imagine it if you will.

 

Same number of titles, same number of great matches, same years on top.

 

Now imagine he was not called Sting but instead Ryu Stinguji

 

Would we even be having this conversation? Would we?

 

I think we all know the answer to that question.

[Dylan Waco]

I wonder if it is possible to privilege Japanese stuff and territories too much, at the expensive of the American majors.

 

I'm not buying this line that Vader "blows Sting away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate".

 

Why? Because imagine for a second that Sting had his EXACT same career, only in AJPW or NJPW rather than Crockett / WCW. I know that sounds weird, but imagine it if you will.

 

Same number of titles, same number of great matches, same years on top.

 

Now imagine he was not called Sting but instead Ryu Stinguji

 

Would we even be having this conversation? Would we?

 

I think we all know the answer to that question.

Two things.

 

The first is that Vader is a big picture candidate, not a little picture candidate. Vader was more successful on top in Japan than Sting was in the States (how could he not be?), but what makes Vader compelling is that he was a huge star in the States and Japan (and yes Europe) at the same time. The overwhelming majority of people regard him as a decisively better worker than Sting too which leads me too...

 

The second is that I think you drastically overestimate Sting's accomplishments and worth. I have actually been HIGHER on Sting as a worker than most for the majority of the time that I've been around these discussions and yet I think there is no real argument for him as an HoFer on the strength of a high "number of great matches." Number of titles has very little value in and of itself in a HoF discussion. Years on top is also nearly irrelevant. It's what you do on top, not the fact that you are there. There is no question that Sting did not do well on top. If Sting had done exactly the same thing in Japan I think people would be saying exactly the same things. Sting isn't even as good a candidate as Akira Taue and Taue can't even stay on the ballot. If anything he benefits from having been "on top" a lot in one of the two major promotions in the States.

 

As an aside I have written in the past that I don't think Vader is as obvious a candidate as the top of the top tier guys either, but I of course would have voted for him if he were on a ballot and I was a voter so it's a moot point.

[Ricky Jackson]

I wonder if it is possible to privilege Japanese stuff and territories too much, at the expensive of the American majors.

 

I'm not buying this line that Vader "blows Sting away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate".

 

Why? Because imagine for a second that Sting had his EXACT same career, only in AJPW or NJPW rather than Crockett / WCW. I know that sounds weird, but imagine it if you will.

 

Same number of titles, same number of great matches, same years on top.

 

Now imagine he was not called Sting but instead Ryu Stinguji

 

Would we even be having this conversation? Would we?

 

I think we all know the answer to that question.

Good point. But one way you could argue against that kind of straight up comparison, and I'm no expert on Japan, is that as far as I know AJPW and NJPW vastly outdrew WCW in every possible way during the 90s, with the possible exception of 97-98. So Sting was a much lesser draw than Japan's top guys. And while he had a number of memorable matches during the 90s, I think his Japanese counterparts were for the most part better workers. (although in a totally different style)

 

On the other hand, I think that there is a bit of a "mystique" for some Western wrestling fans when it comes to Japanese wrestling, in that certain Japanese stars are put up on pedestals and worshipped with almost god-like reverence, similar to how certain Western wrestlers were regarded in Japan during the 50s through the 80s. As a result, some HOF Japanese guys are in perhaps based on being kind of mysterious and unique, while a guy like Sting is a dime a dozen musclehead American wrestler and, without slam dunk HOF credentials (serious drawing power, unique charisma, awesome worker, etc.), has had trouble getting in, and always will.

 

I just pulled that out of my ass, so forgive me if it sounds a little off the mark.

[kjh]

I tend to look at Sting's career arc as being fairly similar to Jun Akiyama's. Both shone early in their careers and were groomed for the top spot, but when they were put in that position it just didn't click. Both hung around near the top spot of their respective promotions for the rest of their careers and had some success against the right opponent on top, but they couldn't carry business on their own. Akiyama fell off the ballot and even though he was never as hot as Sting was as a star in 1997, he delivered more consistently in the ring than Sting did.

[jdw]

Could listen to you guys talk about wrestling history all day. Still only 1:17 into the first one and think it is great.

 

Just one question: what was jdw's involvement in the original WO 1996 Hall of Fame list?

John could explain it better but basically Meltzer and him were on a plane ride to Japan. Either to kill time or because Dave had the idea and wanted to hash it out with someone else or a combo of both they ended up running down a list of names effectively establishing the first class.

 

That would generally be it. Dave had been batting the idea of a HOF around for a while. I've joked about the process on the plane a lot over the years. Dave ran over the lucha guys with Sims, who hooked up with us in Japan. I actually have a vivid memory of sitting outdoors in the plaza that contained the Tokyo Dome and Korakuen Hall (before the hotel and LaQua were built), and us flipping through the same book with Sims and running down the luchadors.

 

Some of the Japanese guys were reviewed with Wally, since we stayed with him. I'm drawing a blank of anyone he pushed that we didn't already think was a HOFer. The one thing that sticks out was how emphatic he was about how over Mil was in the 70s.

 

Dave hashed out more of it when he got back to the US (I stayed behind an extra week for the AJW double cards at Budokan). There were some added after the trip, like Stu and Fargo who weren't in the book we looked at. Don't know who pimped Stu to him, but tend to think Dave thought it as a no brainer. I would suspect that one of the Memphis folks pimped Fargo to him: Lance worked on the hotline for Dave, though I don't know if that was through Steve Beverly... Dave of course has always been friendly with Cornette as well. There are probably some others that I could point to, if looking over the Class of 1996, that weren't names bounced around in Japan. The majority (in the sense of 90%) were people he made up his mind on before he returned.

 

John

[jdw]

Adds:

 

#1 - Mistakes

 

Of course there were mistakes in the initial class. I've copped to several of them over the years. The eligibility criteria also should have been thought through more, which I've talked about quite a bit in the past and again here recently. If I could pop back in the time machine knowning what I know now and work on a re-do, would it look differently? Yes, quite a bit if for no reason other than eligibility.

 

#2 - Dave

 

It was his HOF, and remains so even if reduced to a degree by a large number of voters. At the time, if he was locked into someone, that person was going to go in. If I could take the least worthy person in that class that I knew a ton about and could make an extremely compelling argument about him not going in, would I have been able to turn Dave around? I'd have to try to figure out who that person is, recall how strongly Dave thought about them... beats me. Couldn't even say who would fit that bill.

 

#3 - Vader

 

The list initial list was done on Jul 30/31, 1996. Sting vs Vader wasn't really close at the time. Hell, he was coming off a Hogan-Vader series the prior year that was booked for total shit yet still drew buyrates that in the context of 1994 through the first half of 1996 were quite good. Those three pretty much put to bed the "Did he draw in the US" concept to bed: he was a drawing opponent for Hogan.

 

It's hard to take one's mind back to how people viewed things in 1996 because we have 15 years of stuff since then that pop into the head. I'm not sold that the selection of Vader for the HOF was a mistake. I'm about 100% certain that he would have gone in if we used better eligibility levels such as 40/20 (40 years old or 20 years of wrestling) or 45/20 (45 years old or 25 years or wrestling):

 

Vader

Born: 1957

Debut: 1985

40/20: 1997 (age)

45/25: 2002 (age)

 

1997 was before voting. Vader would have gone in.

 

2002 was after the voting. Looking at the results in that period, Vader would have gone in with a very high %.

 

While I don't agree a lot with the voters, Sting still isn't in, and I suspect if you removed Vader would be voted back in from the Hall and put him on next year's ballot.

 

John

[puropotsy]

I wonder if it is possible to privilege Japanese stuff and territories too much, at the expensive of the American majors.

 

I'm not buying this line that Vader "blows Sting away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate".

 

Why? Because imagine for a second that Sting had his EXACT same career, only in AJPW or NJPW rather than Crockett / WCW. I know that sounds weird, but imagine it if you will.

 

Same number of titles, same number of great matches, same years on top.

 

Now imagine he was not called Sting but instead Ryu Stinguji

 

Would we even be having this conversation? Would we?

 

I think we all know the answer to that question.

I think it really coms down for people to the business in Japan being strong when Vader had his big runs there and WCW not being big in the early90\s when Sting was on top. I definitely think Sting should in though.

[jdw]

I wonder if it is possible to privilege Japanese stuff and territories too much, at the expensive of the American majors.

Probably not. The amerian majors have actually done pretty well. Someone like Murdoch, who has limited "major" pluses, is sitting on the outside asking for a seat inside. Bill Dundee, anyone?

 

 

I'm not buying this line that Vader "blows Sting away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate".

* Sting has longevity on Vader.

* Sting is more famous than Vader.

 

After that... it's getting thin.

 

 

Why? Because imagine for a second that Sting had his EXACT same career, only in AJPW or NJPW rather than Crockett / WCW. I know that sounds weird, but imagine it if you will.

 

Same number of titles, same number of great matches, same years on top.

 

Now imagine he was not called Sting but instead Ryu Stinguji

My question to you would be to identify:

 

* the wrestlers in Japan who are most like Sting in the era

* the wrestlers in the WON HOF who are Japanese and had the same exact career as Sting

 

I'm not sure who fits either of those. I'm pretty confident there isn't any of the second group, at least as of 2010. The people who have gone in have things that differentiate themselves from Sting. They are the types of things that would have gotten them in if they were US workers.

 

On the first group, Sasaki is the closest that I can think of. Maybe Toyonobori

 

Let's pitch out Rikidozan, Baba and Inoki. Sting isn't them... not remotely... not in Sting's dreams... not in Mrs. Sting's wet dreams.

 

50s?

 

No one.

 

60's?

 

Toyonobori, though without the longevity. He's not in.

 

70s?

 

No one. Sakaguchi isn't Sting, and he's not in. Strong and Kimura are different beasts. Neither of them are in.

 

80s?

 

Uh... who? Sting isn't Jumbo, Choshu, Fujinami or Tenryu. I mean... come on. Sayama? Different bird.

 

90s?

 

Sasaki is the closest I can think of. Taue wasn't as big of a star as Sting is, and he's not in anyway.

 

Sting isn't Misawa, Kawada or Kobashi from a HOF Voter Viewpoint. Setting aside whatever else those three had going for them as HOF Candidates, they got in because they were thought to be among the handful (and I mean *literally* "a handful with five fingers") of workers of their generation. We can argue whether they actually are at that level in hindsight, but when Misawa (1996), Kawada (1997) and Kobashi (2002) went in, at the time of those tossing ins / votes, they were generally thought to be among the 5 best workers of their generation. Sting isn't that. Christ, people debate whether he even was "good" rather than whether he was a God Of Work.

 

Sting isn't Hash, Chono or Mutoh. One could argue Chono's candidacy, but the arguments were exactly what you heard being tossed around for Sting. I'm not a Mutoh fan, but I don't let that get in my way: Mutoh isn't a Sting comp. And Hash... he's closer to Stong Cold than Sting as a comp.

 

Maeda and Takada? Completely different beasts from Sting, anchoring wildly successful promotions that would be the equiv of SMW and ECW doing peak buyrates at the level of Wrestlemania/Rumble that same year. People may think I'm full if shit on that one initially, but (i) if you think about it for a minute you'll get it, and (ii) if you don't get it... I'd be happy to point it out. Sting isn't them. For people who hate Takada's work, set aside that for a moment similar to how one sets aside a dislike of Hogan's work our value as a human being to grasp that Hogan Drew Like A Motherfucker.

 

Okay, so we're down to juniors (Liger and Dragon) and oddball HOFers (Hase and Funaki).

 

Sting isn't Liger or Dragon. Again, the comp is different and the reasons Liger and Dragon got in have nothing to do with the case people are making for Sting. I'm not going to defend Dragon, but I also don't think arguing about Dragon has anything to do with Sting.

 

I'd say the same for Hase and Funaki. I didn't vote for them. I didn't advocate them. I disagree with those who voted them into the HOF. But are Hase and Funaki in the HOF for having the "had his EXACT same career" as Sting, only in AJPW/NJPW? Of course not.

 

So we're left with Sasaki, and possible Toyonobri.

 

 

Would we even be having this conversation? Would we?

 

I think we all know the answer to that question.

I think the answer would be:

 

"Jerry: you're completely wrong on this one. Get off the ledge."

 

We can revist this is Sasaki goes in the HOF, which is entirely possible. But Sting will go in via the same voters who will eventually vote in Sting and for a similar reason:

 

Sting/Sasaki was a Big Star for a Long Time in a Major Fed who Worked On Top a Lot for whom we'll ignore That He Failed Almost Always As An Anchor Star and vote for him anyway because We Don't Have Other Worthy Candidates To Vote For because There Are No More Hogan & Austin & Rock / Misawa & Hash & Mutoh's Coming Down The Pipeline

 

We can add Akiyama to that bucket as well, but he's more of a star of the 00s. Except... Dave and a fair number of folks in Dave's camp think Jun was a great worker. Not Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi level... but vastly above Sting's level. There are a lot of things he shares with Sting, but that work for the voters is a big kicker. It's a little bit of a stretch. He certainly doesn't fit into the "had the same number of great matches as Sting" grouping.

 

To sum up, through the 2010 Class, no one like Sting from Japan has gone in. Card subject to change when/if Sasaki, Toyonobori and/or Akiyama (if we stretch it to him) go in.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Ok John, happy to accept I'm wrong on this

[FLIK]

On the subject of Sting, I think an interesting comp would be Bret.

 

Bret got in no questions asked in the initial 96 class.

Both had been in major mainstream promotions for about the same amount of time, both got their chance to be the anchors of their promotions around the same time though Sting had allready been in the main event mix a few years earlier then Bret was. Sting not being a big draw is something held against him but was the WWF with Bret on top from 92-96 really doing significantly better business, enough that you could count that as a plus for Bret? And if not what does Bret have over Sting?

 

Bret's considered a better in ring talent then Sting which I don't disagree with but I also think Sting is a lot better then given credit for, enough so that I at the least wouldn't say Bret blows him out of the water by leaps & bounds.

 

Oh....and they had the same finisher....

[JerryvonKramer]

I wish I'd thought of that FLIK. Fanastic point.

 

On Bret vs. Sting - Sting was significantly better on the mic and had bagloads more charisma. I think Sting had "X-factor" and that Bret never did.

 

Obviously, WWF was annhilating WCW in 1992-3, but how about in 94-6? Not that that would seriously help Sting's cause because he wasn't top dog at that point.

[Gregor]

On Bret vs. Sting - Sting was significantly better on the mic and had bagloads more charisma. I think Sting had "X-factor" and that Bret never did.

(Emphasis mine)

 

I don't know about this. This isn't meant as a knock on Sting but as a compliment toward Hart. I think that he's very good on the mic - very believable, spoke with a lot of conviction. He was maybe the best interview in the WWF in the first half of 1997, either him or Austin. His heel stuff from WCW is good, too; he was supposedly injured, and he came out and whined about his tragic groin pull and how he'd love to fight people but just couldn't. He also has a really good promo from the Nitro in Canada.

 

As for charisma, I don't know how to pin that down. Hart was almost always over. The crowd didn't zone out during his matches. There was never a disconnect between the character he portrayed in interviews and the work he did in the ring.

 

I'm not looking to say anything bad about Sting's charisma/mic work. I just think that Bret's really good in both areas, too.

[NintendoLogic]

Bret was a better worker and a better draw than Sting, both by a significant margin. In the 90s, only Austin, Hogan, Taker, Rock, and Foley headlined more 10000+ shows than Bret. Sting isn't in the top 15 on that list. And Sting didn't open up any markets for WCW the way Bret opened up Europe for the WWF.