Good Will Wrestling #6

[kjh]

From Bret Hart's book

 

"Memphis had always been the most insane outpost of the goofiest and phoniest types of wrestling and wrestlers, going back to the 1960s"

 

"We had a great time working the fans up and went on to have a fabulously phony match"

[Loss]

"Phoniest" is a measurement concept from people within wrestling that seem to be marks for themselves. It's all equally fake, how can some of it be more phony than other stuff? I wasn't aware German suplexes and missile dropkicks were realistic, or that people apply sharpshooters in bar fights.

 

You don't judge wrestling on how "phony" it is, you judge wrestling on the environment it creates and whether or not everything makes sense within that universe. Memphis, for example, existed in a different universe than All Japan.

 

Jingus, I have no problem with anyone saying a particular style isn't their thing, but when the reasons provided for it not being their thing don't hold up, then of course people are going to say something.

 

The whole idea of wrestling that I don't think is unique to any one style or territory is that the more people can (even temporarily) suspend their disbelief, the more they will pop, and the more heat there will be. Considering how much crowd heat most matches at the Mid South Coliseum had, I'd say they were exactly as plausible (I like that word better than "realistic" in discussions like this) as they needed to be.

[rzombie1988]

I find Memphis wrestling to be rather realistic myself. Sure they had some wacky characters(and WWF or any other federation hasn't?), but I can believe in what they are doing 100 times easier than any episode of raw. I love memphis wrestling.

[S.L.L.]

Some of my thoughts as well but I suppose I'm majically reading them from Bret's book which must have never existed.

Well, I did say "most", not "all". I don't deny that people other than yourself who dislike Memphis wrestling exist, though others have pointed out the obvious problems with Bret's comments. But as Herodes alluded to, you have a long, storied history of "proving" your more dubious points by claiming that the majority agrees with you, even when you have no actual evidence that this majority exists, and even when the people arguing against your have evidence that it doesn't and/or that the actual majority believes the opposite.

 

But we've been down this road already, and as you are the most impossibly closed-minded person walking the face of the Earth, I doubt there's anything new to bring to the discussion there. Honestly, I'm more interested in finding out why you always spell the word "magic" with a "j".

 

I know that bagging on Pegasus is practically a beer-league sport among this crowd, and I'm not defending his position. But you guys were awfully quick to dismiss the idea of anyone not liking the Memphis style. I'm one of them (Admittedly with me, it's just that I worked so many goddamn Tennessee shitty indy shows which so desperately ripped off every aspect of that old territory, and familiarity definitely bred contempt.) But it's perfectly understandable that some folks just might not like that stuff. Maybe they're not a fan of brawling, or maybe they hate walk-n-talk tactics, maybe they're Gabe Sapolsky. I knew plenty of younger wrestlers from all around the old territory's footprint who didn't think much of Memphis.

What Loss said. Not liking it is one thing. You have that right as a fan. Problems are with the specific arguments and with the guy making them.

 

1. Claiming the inferiority of Memphis wrestling is not his opinion, but an objective fact, despite having no real evidence to support that, and plenty of evidence against it.

 

2. The supporting evidence he does try to provide doesn't reflect reality, or are based on appeals to majorities that don't exist, or to intellectual authority that he doesn't have.

 

3. The stated reasons behind Memphis' objective inferiority show almost no internal consistency when put in the larger context of his opinions believed objective facts about wrestling (Lawler is objectively the worst ever because he's so incredibly fake....but Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid 4/21/83 is one of the best matches of all time).

[goodhelmet]

I know that bagging on Pegasus is practically a beer-league sport among this crowd, and I'm not defending his position. But you guys were awfully quick to dismiss the idea of anyone not liking the Memphis style.

This is an old argument that has carried on for several years from the DVDVR board. We aren't quick to dismiss him. After a 20+ page thread at DVDR several years ago, we dismissed his opinions.

[Resident Evil]

Mike, sorry but I just can't go back and watch more Memphis wrestling.

Oh come on, dude, that's a total copout. You don't have to go back and watch anything. You can't come up with a single solitary memory of a match, angle, interview that you found to be eye rollingly bad?

 

Bret's comments about it coming off phony echo mine. I watch wrestling for the fighting spirit ever sinceI was a young lad watching the WWF. I never was into the bad guy vs good guy thing. I liked the sport aspects of wretling.

 

Years ago, I watched when Bret and Owen went down to Memphis to wrestle I believe Lawler and Jarrett. Even before the match occured, I knew the match would be toned down, basic, predictable and boring face vs heel structure wise. There would be nothing to stimulate my brain match structure wise. It would be toned down from even the WWF match structure which in turn was "toned down" from the WCW which was a step down from Japan. I was right. The match did nothing for me. I'm not even dissing Lawler here and I was actually a fan of Jarrett. Jarrett I liked. I blame a lot of the match's problems on Memphis structure and the King's phoniness.

 

Pet Peeve #2 -- When a wrestler turns from face to heel they automatically go from exaggerated babyface to exaggerated heel at the tip of a hat complete with the fake begging off at the knees bit.

 

Pet Peeve # 3 -- Heels begging off at their knees

 

Pet Peeve #4 -- Basic tag structure always being the same and predictable. You need to change it up at times in order to give the basic tag structure more meaning otherwise it starts to mean "nothing"

 

Pet Peeve #5 -- When the hot tag occurs -- heels always having to predictably get destroyed by the faces.

 

Pet Peeves #6 -- Heels setting themselves up for bodyslems by running into them

 

Pet Peeve #7 -- Maybe my worse wrestling pet peeve ever. Heels running into weak, lazy punches that don't even hit after the face gets the hot tag. I was actually watching a good Memphis tag the toher month but this just ruined it.

 

Pet Peeve #8 -- Wrestlers getting their head slammed into the turnbuckle 10 times over and the crowd counting along and it always having to be the face that does it

 

Pet Peeve #9 -- Ditto on the 10 punches in the corner turnbuckle bit

 

Pet Peeve #10 -- Too much emphasis on punching to the point where it doesn't mean anything.

 

Pet Peeve #11 -- Fistdrop from teh second rope

 

Pet Peeve #12 -- Anything in a Jerry Lawler match

 

Pet Peeve #13 -- Stalling when you're not a good wrestler as you don't have anything to bring the fans out of boredom once you get back into the ring

 

Pet Peeve #14 -- Reffs being blind to cheating heels

 

Pet Peeve #15 -- Match structure doesn't take as much thought compared to anything else in the world

 

Pet Peeve #16 -- Heels and faces always having to wrestle a certain way -- only allowed to hit certain moves -- Too predictable and makes things comes off as phony.

 

Things I like -- Macho Man and some of the interviews

 

shitty, jacked up roid headed midgets that don't sell anything

Who if he wants to can wrestle your style of match better than any of your favs. And in his defense of ur roid accusation, he has no obvious signs of steroids that so many other wrestlers do. Is he on or isn't he? I don't know but there's no obvious signs.

 

1. Claiming the inferiority of Memphis wrestling is not his opinion, but an objective fact, despite having no real evidence to support that, and plenty of evidence against it.

It all depends on the person watching it and his/her reactions to it. The emotions it generates. For some it can be great, for others it can be horrible. For me, yeah it is fact, I don't like Memphis wrestling because it is everything I hate about wrestling. For you, it's different.

However, with that being said it is pretty obvious that Memphis wrestling can come off as pretty corny when in comparison to other wrestling around the world.

 

Honestly, I'm more interested in finding out why you always spell the word "magic" with a "j".

Because you love it that way. Don't deny it!

 

"Phoniest" is a measurement concept from people within wrestling that seem to be marks for themselves. It's all equally fake, how can some of it be more phony than other stuff? I wasn't aware German suplexes and missile dropkicks were realistic, or that people apply sharpshooters in bar fights

The same way any movie/Tv fight is more phony than Roddy Piper/Keith David in They Live or a Bruce Lee fight. Ask anyone what they think is phoniest. You know what the answer is. It's the same thing with Memphis wrestling.

 

You don't judge wrestling on how "phony" it is, you judge wrestling on the environment it creates and whether or not everything makes sense within that universe. Memphis, for example, existed in a different universe than All Japan

You judge wrestling by how it effects its audience -- yes that's true --- but you also judge it by how it effects you. You can also judge how it will fare among people who don't watch it or among wrestling fans who watch different styles.

 

The whole idea of wrestling that I don't think is unique to any one style or territory is that the more people can (even temporarily) suspend their disbelief, the more they will pop, and the more heat there will be. Considering how much crowd heat most matches at the Mid South Coliseum had, I'd say they were exactly as plausible (I like that word better than "realistic" in discussions like this) as they needed to be.

I think Memphis because of its phoniness hurt its growth potential to go beyond what they had. I also think that they would have troubles in other markets outside of Memphis because of this. Yes they got some heat and kudos to them for it but I think they handcuffed themselves as well.

 

. The stated reasons behind Memphis' objective inferiority show almost no internal consistency when put in the larger context of his opinions believed objective facts about wrestling (Lawler is objectively the worst ever because he's so incredibly fake....but Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid 4/21/83 is one of the best matches of all time).

I feel sorry for you here. You have no natural instinct to warn yourself of sexual predators or people that just come off as phony in life.

 

Your mind and emotions also can't seem to comprehend what makes Sayama vs Kid so incredible for me and the fans back than. You're missing out and I feel bad for you over that. It is legit one of the best matches ever. And while I'm on a roll -- Pro Wrestling = MMA

[goodhelmet]

BEST POST EVER!!!

[KrisZ]

Buddy Landell vs. Nightmare Freddy > Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask

[goodhelmet]

Now you're just trolling. Neither one was very good.

[Bix]

Bret's comments about it coming off phony echo mine. I watch wrestling for the fighting spirit ever sinceI was a young lad watching the WWF. I never was into the bad guy vs good guy thing. I liked the sport aspects of wretling.

 

Years ago, I watched when Bret and Owen went down to Memphis to wrestle I believe Lawler and Jarrett. Even before the match occured, I knew the match would be toned down, basic, predictable and boring face vs heel structure wise. There would be nothing to stimulate my brain match structure wise. It would be toned down from even the WWF match structure which in turn was "toned down" from the WCW which was a step down from Japan. I was right. The match did nothing for me. I'm not even dissing Lawler here and I was actually a fan of Jarrett. Jarrett I liked. I blame a lot of the match's problems on Memphis structure and the King's phoniness.

I'd have to find my Memphis '93 DVDs but the house show matches that did show up on TV were incredibly clipped up at that point.

 

By the way, guess what territory was looked down on as much as, if not more than Memphis within the business.

 

Pet Peeve #2 -- When a wrestler turns from face to heel they automatically go from exaggerated babyface to exaggerated heel at the tip of a hat complete with the fake begging off at the knees bit.

 

Pet Peeve # 3 -- Heels begging off at their knees

 

Pet Peeve #4 -- Basic tag structure always being the same and predictable. You need to change it up at times in order to give the basic tag structure more meaning otherwise it starts to mean "nothing"

 

Pet Peeve #5 -- When the hot tag occurs -- heels always having to predictably get destroyed by the faces.

 

Pet Peeves #6 -- Heels setting themselves up for bodyslems by running into them

 

Pet Peeve #7 -- Maybe my worse wrestling pet peeve ever. Heels running into weak, lazy punches that don't even hit after the face gets the hot tag. I was actually watching a good Memphis tag the toher month but this just ruined it.

 

Pet Peeve #8 -- Wrestlers getting their head slammed into the turnbuckle 10 times over and the crowd counting along and it always having to be the face that does it

 

Pet Peeve #9 -- Ditto on the 10 punches in the corner turnbuckle bit

All of these are staples of the north of Mexico North American wrestling. #6 is the concept of feeding, which I'm pretty sure is done everywhere in wrestling.

 

You're still yet to give any explanation why you're the only person to think that the territory full of guys that literally everyone else watching thinks is full of guys throwing the best working punches in wrestling was actually full of guys with terrible punches.

 

Pet Peeve #10 -- Too much emphasis on punching to the point where it doesn't mean anything.

Not actually true, but still: MI-SA-WA! MI-SA-WA!

 

Pet Peeve #11 -- Fistdrop from teh second rope

I have seen Owen Hart do this in Calgary and I'm pretty sure there may even be a photo floating around.

 

Pet Peeve #12 -- Anything in a Jerry Lawler match

I thought you liked guys who take big bumps. I thought you liked swandive headbutts and somersault sentons.

 

Pet Peeve #13 -- Stalling when you're not a good wrestler as you don't have anything to bring the fans out of boredom once you get back into the ring

Again, stalling was throughout "American" wrestling and a reliable way to get heat if done well.

 

Pet Peeve #14 -- Reffs being blind to cheating heels

Now you're definitely trolling. You hate Memphis style because it uses common American wrestling tropes? Granted, you grew up on Stampede during the Dynamite era, where they added the card system, and it allowed minor infractions to happen in front of the ref, but c'mon now.

 

Pet Peeve #15 -- Match structure doesn't take as much thought compared to anything else in the world

 

Pet Peeve #16 -- Heels and faces always having to wrestle a certain way -- only allowed to hit certain moves -- Too predictable and makes things comes off as phony.

Blah blah American wrestling trope.

 

What, no "Lance Russell was a crappy announcer who's far inferior to Ed Whalen"?

 

shitty, jacked up roid headed midgets that don't sell anything

Who if he wants to can wrestle your style of match better than any of your favs. And in his defense of ur roid accusation, he has no obvious signs of steroids that so many other wrestlers do. Is he on or isn't he? I don't know but there's no obvious signs.

Where are these alleged Davey Richards Memphis style matches?

 

And he may have been referring to Richards' style of work, which is definitely that of "jacked up roid headed midgets that don't sell anything" even if he isn't on the gas himself.

 

However, with that being said it is pretty obvious that Memphis wrestling can come off as pretty corny when in comparison to other wrestling around the world.

"LUKE IS ANGRY!!!!"

 

"Phoniest" is a measurement concept from people within wrestling that seem to be marks for themselves. It's all equally fake, how can some of it be more phony than other stuff? I wasn't aware German suplexes and missile dropkicks were realistic, or that people apply sharpshooters in bar fights

The same way any movie/Tv fight is more phony than Roddy Piper/Keith David in They Live or a Bruce Lee fight. Ask anyone what they think is phoniest. You know what the answer is. It's the same thing with Memphis wrestling.

Another mythical survey! Awesome!

 

You don't judge wrestling on how "phony" it is, you judge wrestling on the environment it creates and whether or not everything makes sense within that universe. Memphis, for example, existed in a different universe than All Japan

You judge wrestling by how it effects its audience -- yes that's true --- but you also judge it by how it effects you. You can also judge how it will fare among people who don't watch it or among wrestling fans who watch different styles.

Didn't the DVDVR Memphis '80s poll do that? There was exactly one person among dozens posting who wasn't crazy about it.

 

The whole idea of wrestling that I don't think is unique to any one style or territory is that the more people can (even temporarily) suspend their disbelief, the more they will pop, and the more heat there will be. Considering how much crowd heat most matches at the Mid South Coliseum had, I'd say they were exactly as plausible (I like that word better than "realistic" in discussions like this) as they needed to be.

I think Memphis because of its phoniness hurt its growth potential to go beyond what they had. I also think that they would have troubles in other markets outside of Memphis because of this. Yes they got some heat and kudos to them for it but I think they handcuffed themselves as well.

You do realize they ran other markets besides Memphis, right? Louisville, Lexington, Evansville, Nashville, etc. Also, Dallas switching to Memphis style wrestling and booking after the Jarrett buyout helped pop the territory in '88-'89. The first sellout of the Sportatorium in several years was with Tojo Yamamoto and Phil Hickerson as top heels.

 

Where else exactly were they expected to grow to? They were a territory, and the one territory that was able to outlive the rest by many years. Jarrett bought Dallas after working with them for months and even after the USWA "merger" a year later, it wasn't really the same territory as Dallas became the priority with Memphis often using a skeleton crew.

 

. The stated reasons behind Memphis' objective inferiority show almost no internal consistency when put in the larger context of his opinions believed objective facts about wrestling (Lawler is objectively the worst ever because he's so incredibly fake....but Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid 4/21/83 is one of the best matches of all time).

I feel sorry for you here. You have no natural instinct to warn yourself of sexual predators or people that just come off as phony in life.

 

Your mind and emotions also can't seem to comprehend what makes Sayama vs Kid so incredible for me and the fans back than. You're missing out and I feel bad for you over that. It is legit one of the best matches ever.

Your mind and emotions also can't seem to comprehend what makes Lawler vs Dundee so incredible for me and the fans back than. You're missing out and I feel bad for you over that. It is legit one of the best matches ever.

 

And while I'm on a roll -- Pro Wrestling = MMAI

2010 eyes!

[KrisZ]

Memphis didn't have enough guys wearing kickpads

[Dylan Waco]

Now you're just trolling. Neither one was very good.

 

I actually liked one of the DK v. TM matches okay. The others were horrible - really among the worst matches I've ever seen. Still even the BEST DK v. TM match is not all that good. For matches involving guys known for violent tempers v. dudes dressed as animals, it is nowhere near the level of Jim Cornette v. Cowabunga. Of course the finish of Cowabunga v. Cornette is a flip so RE might love it despite Memphisy traits.

[Bix]

Dammit Dylan, I was going to break out a "Masked character based on a popular franchise vs drug addict" comparison with Freddy vs Landel.

[Jingus]

I actually liked one of the DK v. TM matches okay. The others were horrible - really among the worst matches I've ever seen.

I still maintain that their earlier matches were damn good. The ones back when it was just "small unknown English kid vs smaller dude in a furry cat mask", before they became "PARAGONS OF AERIAL EXCELLENCE". Their first match together had perfectly decent psychology and didn't abuse the big spots and dives like their later matches did. Why the hell is the 2/3 falls match the one that got all the hype? That might have been the worst singles bout they had, especially with all three falls each somehow ending in a non-finish.

 

The same way any movie/Tv fight is more phony than Roddy Piper/Keith David in They Live or a Bruce Lee fight. Ask anyone what they think is phoniest. You know what the answer is. It's the same thing with Memphis wrestling.

Another mythical survey! Awesome!

Even if I did understand the line of reasoning here, which I don't, I'd still take issue with the examples given. The Piper/David fight was ridiculous, an insanely long fight with a hundred blatant rassling moves, all over a pair of sunglasses. And Bruce Lee was an actor, regardless of his level of real-life MMA talent. His movie fights were just as phony as John Wayne's.

 

I feel sorry for you here. You have no natural instinct to warn yourself of sexual predators or people that just come off as phony in life.

[Resident Evil]

Didn't the DVDVR Memphis '80s poll do that? There was exactly one person among dozens posting who wasn't crazy about it.

I like DVDVR but let's be honost. It's well known to be the home of anti smarks and followers. It's contrarian to the max to the point where it is often made fun of at other boards. And I never paid any attention to that poll since I didn't care besides voting for Savage who I thought was awesome in Memphis. His speed, body language, intensity, promos, presence and punches were the best.

 

All of these are staples of the north of Mexico North American wrestling. #6 is the concept of feeding, which I'm pretty sure is done everywhere in wrestling.

 

You're still yet to give any explanation why you're the only person to think that the territory full of guys that literally everyone else watching thinks is full of guys throwing the best working punches in wrestling was actually full of guys with terrible punches

It doesn't matter where they occur. It's still horrible. And I don't think that Memphis was full of guys with terrible punches. Savage for instance had awesome punches.

 

Not actually true, but still: MI-SA-WA! MI-SA-WA!

You have something against Misawa's wrestling ability? Why? Guy was fantastic

 

I have seen Owen Hart do this in Calgary and I'm pretty sure there may even be a photo floating around.

So? Big deal. It wasn't part of his regular like arsenal like Lawler's was. The move is one of the nonsensical moves in wrestling history

 

I thought you liked guys who take big bumps. I thought you liked swandive headbutts and somersault sentons.

It all depends. I am usually a fan of guys who take big bumps.

 

Again, stalling was throughout "American" wrestling and a reliable way to get heat if done well.

Yeah, but it's a pet peeve of mine if not done right. The question was about personal pet peeves, not "reliable" ways to get heat. You got Lawler in the 90s working outside of Memphis as a joke wrestler doing his comedy/joke stalling and than not having any talent in the ring to back it up with. It's not like Johnny Smith in 89 who would go out and stall but than have the talent to back it up in the ring.

 

Now you're definitely trolling. You hate Memphis style because it uses common American wrestling tropes? Granted, you grew up on Stampede during the Dynamite era, where they added the card system, and it allowed minor infractions to happen in front of the ref, but c'mon now.

Yes I hate Memphis style because it does use other things that American wrestling uses. It doesn't matter where it happens at. Stampede I had a lot of problems with too but there hardcore NHL tough style like wrestling was better overall to me so I could still enjoy the product.

 

Match structure doesn't take as much thought compared to anything else in the world

Don't know why you find that funny but Memphis style takes way less thought to do and as a result it is not as satisying to watch. I like matches where I can see the wreslers thinking and achieving.

 

Blah blah American wrestling trope.

 

What, no "Lance Russell was a crappy announcer who's far inferior to Ed Whalen"?

Russel would take a long time to talk about. Whalen too who is one of the more fascinating commentators.

 

Predicability is one of the problems with North American wrestling. You can just see it more in Memphis. For things to become more meaningful again you have to break away from predicability before going back to it again. It's human nature.

 

Where are these alleged Davey Richards Memphis style matches?

Memphis isn't part of the equation here. I know what Dylan likes in matches and was making a point that Richards can wrestle that way better than any of his favs can if he so chose to.

 

Another mythical survey! Awesome!

If you honostly do not think that people hold Bruce Lee fights and Piper vs David in They Live in higher regard than 99% of movie/TV fights out there than I do not what to say. They Live's fight is tributed and talked about to this day as one of the best, most realistic ever. Bruce Lee as everyone knows is beloved by all. Once again, people tribute Lee all the time. He is a legend.

You can't contrarian yourself out of this one. The difference between Lee and other fights is roughly the equivalent of Japanese wrestling to Memphis.

 

Your mind and emotions also can't seem to comprehend what makes Lawler vs Dundee so incredible for me and the fans back than. You're missing out and I feel bad for you over that. It is legit one of the best matches ever.

Yeah, you have brainwashed yourself to a degree in believing that. It doesn't say much about the viewers of Lawler if they can be so easily duped into believing what he is doing and letting themselves get emotionally tied to it. Lawler comes off as a dangerous phony conman in real life .I've seen one f the Lawler vs Dundee matches. . I have seen Kobashi, Kawada and Misawa along with tons of others have a million matches better than Lawler vs Dundee.

 

I feel sorry for you here. You have no natural instinct to warn yourself of sexual predators or people that just come off as phony in life

You know how people give auras or vibes? Lawler is one that likes sexually underage kids or childeren which has been proven by commentary. His overall phoniness with everything has been exposed there too. Maybe Lawler doesn't sexually abuse children, maybe he does. I don't know but I do know he gives off that same vibe that I feel from others who I know are sexually evil.

[Dylan Waco]

How many others do you know that are "sexually evil?" How many of those people are really personalities housed in your body? Does Lawler's sexual habits concern you because he doesn't have the "courage" to kill his alleged victims like manly man Chris Benoit?

 

How is top rope fistdrop more non-sensical than the vast majority of highspots you love so much.

 

What the fuck is an "antismark?"

 

Where is the evidence that Davey Richards can even have a single good match, let alone excel at whatever style it is that you think I love?

 

Do you think there is any other person on the planet who thinks Johnny Smith was better at stalling then Jerry Lawler?

[Resident Evil]

How many others do you know that are "sexually evil?" How many of those people are really personalities housed in your body? Does Lawler's sexual habits concern you because he doesn't have the "courage" to kill his alleged victims like manly man Chris Benoit?

 

How is top rope fistdrop more non-sensical than the vast majority of highspots you love so much.

 

What the fuck is an "antismark?"

 

Where is the evidence that Davey Richards can even have a single good match, let alone excel at whatever style it is that you think I love?

 

Do you think there is any other person on the planet who thinks Johnny Smith was better at stalling then Jerry Lawler?

 

An antismark is you. Classic case. You love mediocrity and pump it up to the moon and than cry and knock down those who love to achieve. If it were the video game world you would diss Zelda and than pump up some average video game. You would say something like "I can list 2000 games better than The Legend Of Zelda a Link to the Past" Than you post some garbage made up reasons, try to walk around like it is fact and tell everyone else they don't back up their opinions and are wrong when they all disagree.

 

I'm an anti antismark. I fight the good fight.

 

S.L.L. , Bix, Phil Shneider too are anti smarks though they all have their differences.

 

Jingus isn't.

[Jingus]

Jingus isn't.

well this feels kinda like being complimented by a Klan member at an NAACP meeting

[Jingus]

How many others do you know that are "sexually evil?" How many of those people are really personalities housed in your body? Does Lawler's sexual habits concern you because he doesn't have the "courage" to kill his alleged victims like manly man Chris Benoit?

I've known murderers, sexual deviants, drug dealers, and psychopaths of all types; so I do have a feel for this sort of thing. I've only briefly met Lawler once or twice, but from everything I've ever heard about him, his worst sin is simply being addicted to teenage poontang. And he's hardly out of control even in that aspect; I remember a story a local guy told me about Lawler bitterly heckling a trailer trash mom who was openly trying to pimp out her teen daughters to the wrestlers. "Hey look, it's the mother of the year" he groaned, right before the girls started flashing everyone from the back of a pickup truck.

 

Where is the evidence that Davey Richards can even have a single good match, let alone excel at whatever style it is that you think I love?

I recall liking a match him and Ibushi had in ROH, in a "poor man's Tajiri vs Super Crazy" sort of way. Also caught a nice brawl between him and Necro in IWA. (Admittedly, Necro has almost a Flair-like ability to plug any warm body into his standard formula match and make it work.) But I could see how Davey's Rasslin Is Teh Serius Bizness style could turn someone off. Sometimes the 21st century American workrate kids look more like cosplayers having puro tribute matches, rather than tough dudes having a fight like the actual Japanese matches they idolize.

[S.L.L.]

. The stated reasons behind Memphis' objective inferiority show almost no internal consistency when put in the larger context of his opinions believed objective facts about wrestling (Lawler is objectively the worst ever because he's so incredibly fake....but Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid 4/21/83 is one of the best matches of all time).

I feel sorry for you here. You have no natural instinct to warn yourself of sexual predators or people that just come off as phony in life.

I do. I also have a natural instinct that tells me that potential sexual predators cannot prey on me by jumping through my TV screen or my computer monitor. And a natural instinct that tells me that the sexual predator in question has a taste for young girls, and being a 26-year old man, I am an extremely unlikely target for him. So, yeah, I think my instincts are firing on all cylinders here.

 

I also have a natural instinct that protects me from violent drug addicts who wake up their spouses every morning with a gun to their heads. Using morality/wrestlers being a potential danger to knock Lawler while supporting Dyno kinda bolsters my "no internal consistency" argument nicely.

 

And while I'm on a roll, "instinct" doesn't mean what you think it means, and human beings have - at most - one.

 

And while I'm still on a roll, if I didn't have the natural "instinct" that told me potentially dangerous people can't harm me just by observing them on TV or the internet, I'd stop reading or responding to your posts before I'd stop watching Jerry Lawler matches. The King's got his problems, but he's the picture of mental health compared to you.

 

Your mind and emotions also can't seem to comprehend what makes Sayama vs Kid so incredible for me and the fans back than. You're missing out and I feel bad for you over that. It is legit one of the best matches ever.

Aside from what Bix already said, of I can comprehend it. It was a crazy, sound-and-fury spectacle, the wrestling equivalent of a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich movie. Like many Bay/Emmerich movies, it was an effective crowd pleaser, but there wasn't much going on beyond the big explosions and fancy CGI effects, metaphorically speaking. You've disagreed with that assessment, and that's your right. But that's not enough for you. Every single time I've seen someone disagree with you about anything - from big socio/anthro/biological questions about how men and women operate in relation to one another to petty little issues like whether or not Judd Apatow is famous - you stubbornly insist that you are objectively, 100% right, regardless of how much evidence there is to the contrary. You do sometimes pay lip service to the idea that different people can see different things in different ways and form different opinions about them, but always with the coda that the way you see things is the unquestionable right way:

 

It all depends on the person watching it and his/her reactions to it. The emotions it generates. For some it can be great, for others it can be horrible. For me, yeah it is fact, I don't like Memphis wrestling because it is everything I hate about wrestling. For you, it's different.

However, with that being said it is pretty obvious that Memphis wrestling can come off as pretty corny when in comparison to other wrestling around the world.

And you feel sorry for me because of what my mind and my emotions can't grasp?

 

[goodhelmet]

OK, I am glad you guys care about Gabe's thoughts on Memphis enough to talk about it for two pages but this is turning into the wildpegasus thread. Should I create a Wild Pegasus thread for him to give his special comments?

[Jingus]

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Keep the contagion contained, move it all to an OAO WP Thread. This happens on a semi-regular basis, with him spouting off some weird theory and then getting gang-jumped by everyone else, and it's a thread derailer every time.

[Bix]

Didn't the DVDVR Memphis '80s poll do that? There was exactly one person among dozens posting who wasn't crazy about it.

I like DVDVR but let's be honost. It's well known to be the home of anti smarks and followers. It's contrarian to the max to the point where it is often made fun of at other boards. And I never paid any attention to that poll since I didn't care besides voting for Savage who I thought was awesome in Memphis. His speed, body language, intensity, promos, presence and punches were the best.

You voted in the poll for Savage's matches without watching anything?

 

 

All of these are staples of the north of Mexico North American wrestling. #6 is the concept of feeding, which I'm pretty sure is done everywhere in wrestling.

 

You're still yet to give any explanation why you're the only person to think that the territory full of guys that literally everyone else watching thinks is full of guys throwing the best working punches in wrestling was actually full of guys with terrible punches

It doesn't matter where they occur. It's still horrible. And I don't think that Memphis was full of guys with terrible punches. Savage for instance had awesome punches.

At least 2 of your pet peeves about the style/territory at large were "X thing with crappy punches."

 

And if this stuff bothers you so much, why are you only complaining about it when Memphis comes up?

 

Not actually true, but still: MI-SA-WA! MI-SA-WA!

You have something against Misawa's wrestling ability? Why? Guy was fantastic

He was. He also used forearm strikes a lot.

 

I have seen Owen Hart do this in Calgary and I'm pretty sure there may even be a photo floating around.

So? Big deal. It wasn't part of his regular like arsenal like Lawler's was. The move is one of the nonsensical moves in wrestling history

Yes, so much more nonsensical than the Franksteiner.

 

I thought you liked guys who take big bumps. I thought you liked swandive headbutts and somersault sentons.

It all depends. I am usually a fan of guys who take big bumps.

So why don't you like Lawler's big bumps?

 

hardcore NHL tough style like wrestling

?

 

Match structure doesn't take as much thought compared to anything else in the world

Don't know why you find that funny but Memphis style takes way less thought to do and as a result it is not as satisying to watch. I like matches where I can see the wreslers thinking and achieving.

Thinking and achieving what?

 

Another mythical survey! Awesome!

If you honostly do not think that people hold Bruce Lee fights and Piper vs David in They Live in higher regard than 99% of movie/TV fights out there than I do not what to say. They Live's fight is tributed and talked about to this day as one of the best, most realistic ever. Bruce Lee as everyone knows is beloved by all. Once again, people tribute Lee all the time. He is a legend.

You can't contrarian yourself out of this one. The difference between Lee and other fights is roughly the equivalent of Japanese wrestling to Memphis.

The fight in They Live is generally considered ridiculous and overly long. Everyone loves Bruce Lee but not because he's "realistic." I love Jackie Chan, too, but he sure isn't "realistic."

 

Your mind and emotions also can't seem to comprehend what makes Lawler vs Dundee so incredible for me and the fans back than. You're missing out and I feel bad for you over that. It is legit one of the best matches ever.

Yeah, you have brainwashed yourself to a degree in believing that. It doesn't say much about the viewers of Lawler if they can be so easily duped into believing what he is doing and letting themselves get emotionally tied to it. Lawler comes off as a dangerous phony conman in real life .I've seen one f the Lawler vs Dundee matches. Dundee intrigued me enough to want to see more of him. Wait,2 I actually watched because I watched their match from a year or 2 ago which maybe the worse wrestling match I have ever seen. I didn't blame them for it though because of their age and the match structure. I have seen Kobashi, Kawada and Misawa along with tons of others have a million matches better than Lawler vs Dundee.

Most wrestlers come off as dangerous phony conmen in real life.

 

I feel sorry for you here. You have no natural instinct to warn yourself of sexual predators or people that just come off as phony in life

You know how people give auras or vibes? Lawler is one that likes sexually underage kids or childeren which has been proven by commentary. His overall phoniness with everything has been exposed there too. Maybe Lawler doesn't sexually abuse children, maybe he does. I don't know but I do know he gives off that same vibe that I feel from others who I know are sexually evil.

There are lots of wrestlers who have done "sexually evil" things, including some of your favorites (going just by well-known stories, there's that flight where multiple WWE wrestlers including Shawn Michaels drugged and molested a young woman and Neidhart/Davey Boy drugging and raping their wives). Lawler's the only one who happens to have done a pervy old man gimmick.

[goodhelmet]

Bix, I started the RE thread. Unless you are commenting on the podcast, post in that thread.

[Bix]

I was typing my reply while you posted that and saw it after.

 

To make things easier, here's the link to the new thread. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=10623