Where the Big Boys Play #32

[JerryvonKramer]

In order to make comments more manageable, we've decided to run with a longer format so we'll no longer be splitting shows into two halves. This means shows might run long (this one is over 2 hours), if anyone would prefer the old two-part format for longer shows, let me know.

 

Where the Big Boys Play #32 - Clash of the Champions 5

 

 

Chad and Parv review Clash of the Champions 5: St. Valentine's Day Massacre. In this show, among other things: Dusty out - George Scott in, ranking JJ Dillon among the great managers, the psychology of the Steamboat vs. Flair feud: do you relate to Steamboat or do you want to be like Flair?, The BLACKMAILER! Worst gimmick ever?, ranking The Fantastics among all the 80s US tag teams (are they better than every single WWF team?), sports and the question of class, Chad aka AC Slater talks about some of his amateur wrestling experiences in high school, the Lyle Alzado update and a big roundup on listener comments.

 

The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

[shoe]

I'm impressed that you guys actually reviewed this horrible card. I would have told everyone that my dog ate my copy. Too bad your copies didn't have commercials so you would have something more interesting to talk about than that dreadful Clash.

 

A couple of points on the show. George Scott did the same angle with Flair and Steamboat in 77 or 78. In regards to the Fantastics/Varsity Club match. This was the swan song for the Fantastics. The Fantastics thought the Varsity Club was being uncooperative in the ring, and actually stiffing them. So Parv when you thought that Rotundo showed more agression and crispness it might be that he was stiffing the Fantastics.

[soup23]

Just relistened on the way to work and I think by my tone throughout the show it gives and indication of how bad the show was overall (also recorded this one early my time so I was a little groggy in the beginning). Still hopefully we tried to interject some interesting tidbits as I think the Flair vs. Steamboat feud is an interesting dynamic on the surface level, based on their real life personalities, and how it drew as an overall feud and what that says about the NWA viewer at the time. Also enjoyed being able to share my wrestling stories as me getting someone in the full nelson was one of the highlights of 7th grade that still is brought up sometimes to this day.

[soup23]

Shoe, what are your general thoughts on the Fantastics overall since it seems like this was it for Fulton and Rogers in North America essentially?

[thebrainfollower]

This is the greatest moment in the history of our great sport for me, after months of waiting and trying I have finally made it to the greatest forum for online wrestling discussion, prowrestlingonly.com. Knowing my luck I'll be future endeavored soon.

 

Anyway, this was a great great podcast and I hate to say that. Only because it makes me anticipate future god awful shows even more, since you two are clearly capable of being more entertaining than the shows themselves.

 

If any indy company ever has a masked Welsh born wrestler called the Blackmailer I'll know Parv has moved to the US and is pursuing his dream, the breaking up over how horrible Jack Victory was at this show was great stuff.

 

I would say that for once I do agree with Flair's comments in his autobiography that Ricky Steamboat had dated badly here and needed to update his image to remain the babyface in this feud. It wasn't a drastic overall, but I'd say 91-94 WCW Steamboat was more effective in this role, although it could have been simply by this point that fans weren't going to cheer for him against Flair.

 

Far as the Fantastics go I'd rank them below the Harts, Rockers and Bulldogs and maybe on par with the Rougeau Brothers and a little bit above the Islanders as far as Hogan WWF tag teams go. I'd argue the case for longevity is why, when fans have turned on you after less than 2 years, I don't think you can fairly be compared to the best teams the WWF had to offer in the glory years of its tag division even if you have had a few more great matches than said teams.

[soup23]

Thanks for the feedback brain and welcome aboard!

[Loss]

The Fantastics are likely better than every tag team in WWF history. So are the Midnight Express, Rock & Roll Express, Chavo & Hector Guerrero and the Fabulous Ones.

 

I don't think there was a single great WWF tag team match in the entire 1980s. The WWF tag team division meant nothing to the success of the promotion, and I think most fans saw the teams as interchangeable. Were any teams (except *maybe* Demolition) more noticeably over than others? They were the equivalent of cruiserweights in late 90s WCW -- they existed in a separate bubble from the rest of the promotion and sometimes their matches got over, but it wasn't often that people truly cared about the performers themselves. They didn't touch main events like the Rock & Rolls, MX and Road Warriors did in Crockett. They are only remembered fondly because (1) there were so many of them and (2) most of them had matching outfits. How's that for absolute and contentious statements? Sorry if I feel strongly about this.

 

To further elaborate, to blame blowjob tag teams for backlash after a couple of years is not to understand wrestling fans in the 80s. It happened to every blowjob tag team at the time. Teams like that fared better in territories where they could work for 1-2 years, then go somewhere else and be fresh. The backlash was a result of the pretty boy image, where male fans eventually start booing wrestlers marketed to women because they saw them as threatening. It didn't happen in the WWF because at the time, the WWF didn't market itself to your average 20-something guy who would take his girlfriend to watch wrestling. The wrestling infrastructure collapsed that allowed blowjob teams to have a run and move on (and possibly return for a second run after absence made the heart grow fonder), and I don't think it's fair to blame the teams themselves for that, especially not the Fantastics when it even happened to the Rock & Rolls by 1987 in Crockett.

[soup23]

To further elaborate, to blame blowjob tag teams for backlash after a couple of years is not to understand wrestling fans in the 80s. It happened to every blowjob tag team at the time. Teams like that fared better in territories where they could work for 1-2 years, then go somewhere else and be fresh. The backlash was a result of the pretty boy image, where male fans eventually start booing wrestlers marketed to women because they saw them as threatening. It didn't happen in the WWF because at the time, the WWF didn't market itself to your average 20-something guy who would take his girlfriend to watch wrestling. The wrestling infrastructure collapsed that allowed blowjob teams to have a run and move on (and possibly return for a second run after absence made the heart grow fonder), and I don't think it's fair to blame the teams themselves for that, especially not the Fantastics when it even happened to the Rock & Rolls by 1987 in Crockett.

 

In some ways reading this makes it more impressive to me how Cena has stayed on top for so long. Obviously a lot has changed with the way wrestling as a business is presented and run since the 80's and Cena has lost some steam in the past year but he is still unequivocably the #1 guy in his promotion and we are almost seven years past when he got booed like crazy against heel HHH in the Wrestlemania 22 main event.

 

I will need to rewatch both the Fans stuff from Midsouth and Texas and the Rockers from the AWA to decide for sure but I may have the Rockers slighly ahead of them. After the RNR, MX, Tully and Arn, maybe the Fabs, and maybe the Rockers though I would slot the Fantastics for tag teams of the 80's. I say this to as someone that has not seen the High Flyers stuff.

[shoe]

The Fantastics are likely better than every tag team in WWF history. So are the Midnight Express, Rock & Roll Express, Chavo & Hector Guerrero and the Fabulous Ones.

 

I don't think there was a single great WWF tag team match in the entire 1980s. The WWF tag team division meant nothing to the success of the promotion, and I think most fans saw the teams as interchangeable. Were any teams (except *maybe* Demolition) more noticeably over than others? They were the equivalent of cruiserweights in late 90s WCW -- they existed in a separate bubble from the rest of the promotion and sometimes their matches got over, but it wasn't often that people truly cared about the performers themselves. They didn't touch main events like the Rock & Rolls, MX and Road Warriors did in Crockett. They are only remembered fondly because (1) there were so many of them and (2) most of them had matching outfits. How's that for absolute and contentious statements? Sorry if I feel strongly about this.

 

The cruiserweight comparison is a pretty interesting take. Once I think about it that is a great example, except their were great cruiserweight matches. Though the nuts and bolts of the argument is spot on.

[Loss]

Of course, in fairness, the WWF also did a much better job booking their tag team division than WCW did booking the cruiserweight division.

[shoe]

Shoe, what are your general thoughts on the Fantastics overall since it seems like this was it for Fulton and Rogers in North America essentially?

 

For me I would have the MX, Rock N Roll Express, Tully and Arn, and The Rockers ahead of them. With the Rockers it's just by a hair. Teams like the Fabs, and Heavenly Bodies are right up there. If you consider Lawler and Dundee a team they would be up there too.

 

The Rockers and The Fantastics are an interesting comp. The Fantastics have the MX feuds as their crown jewel in 3 different promotions. The Rockers have the Rose/Sommers feud as their best feud.Then both teams have good matches with a variety of teams. The Fantastics have the Sheepherders,Rock N Roll RPM's, Varsity Club,Sting and Gilbert, Tully and Arn, Gilbert and Simmons, and plenty of others. The Rockers got a good match out of Demolition,Hart Foundation, Badd Company, Orton/Adonis, Tully and Arn, The Rougeaus,Powers of Pain, and plenty of others. I have the Rockers by a hair. Though one thing The Fantastics did that the Rockers didn't was have a good run in Japan. They were good enough to modify their style and work in Japan and have good matches that got over to a degree.

[thebrainfollower]

Okay that's an interesting point about the demographics causing a backlash. I don't really understand it though in all non WWF cases, which was how I took the comment. If that's the case why didn't WCCW fans turn on the Von Erichs in say 83-84 get a backlash based on how threatening they would be to the 20 something male fans going to their shows. Seems their backlash happened much later and was due to very different issues. You do state this happened to blowjob tag teams and yeah the Von Erichs weren't really just a tag team, but in what way would they not be just as threatening to a guy than say Ricky Morton?

 

So to say the Fantastics were better than the Harts you're interpreting that to mean they were more important where they worked. But if it's not the tag teams fault for the territories demise (and obviously it isn't), how is it their fault that they couldn't overcome Vince McMahon's (to name one promoter) anti tag team bias? The list of wrestlers who have failed to overcome his pre-conceived notions of what wrestling is is a fairly staggering list.

 

I guess for me better is simply "who do I enjoy watching more". Usually when I watch the best Fantastics matches they aren't the focus for me, but maybe that's a sign of how good they were, that they could put on great matches on a regular basis and make their opponents stand out so well.

 

I think in general it's really really hard to compare WWF and NWA tag teams because they served very different functions. Even when they do crossover the changes are staggering (I don't think even in his wildest dreams Dusty would have told Arn and Tully to job out to a newly turned face Sheepherders in comedy matches for 5 months straight)

[King Solomon]

In discussing the Flair\Steamboat dynamic where Ricky was booed by the fans, Flair in his book talks about that Bonnie Steamboat was really controlling Steamer at this time and insisted on being in front of the camera with little Ricky. Flair wanted Steamboat to be the sex symbol type wrestler that he was during their previous Mid Atlantic feud. I think I read that Flair even went to George Scott with his concerns but to no avail as Bonnie was running that relationship.

[soup23]

That is sort of what I was alluding to Solomon in talking about how facets of this feud in real life were paralleled on screen. I didn't want to say it with 100% certainty because I don't think Steamboat has ever publicly talked about it but the evidence is mounted that Bonnie really controlled Ricky during this time and heavily influenced his decision making.

[King Solomon]

I remember being shocked at the time in how Steamboat was getting booed. It reminded me of when Bob Backlund was in PRO USA and the fans weren't as kind to him as they were when Bob was in the WWF.

[King Solomon]

I found your discussion with Parv interesting about how some guys are Ric Flair's and some are Steamboats. I think I'm a tweener. I prefer to be in a relationship than sleep around but the problem is I suck at relationships and I don't have the sauve to be a player

[King Solomon]

Wasn't Bonnie involved in the original 1977-78 angle? I think she was one of Flair's girls on screen

[cheapshot]

Big fan of 1989, so I am going to go back and listen through these episodes.

 

Chad, Why were you such a fan of Al Perez's work, am I missing something?

[soup23]

Chad, Why were you such a fan of Al Perez's work, am I missing something?

Ha ha Al has become kind of a running joke of WTBBP fans. I will say that I think his WCW stuff is largely decent to good including the actual in -ring match of him under the hood as the Black Scorpion.

 

I decided to seek out some of his other stuff in World Class and Puerto Rico as a result and was less than impressed. I come away thinking that Al could have been a good worker and had the tools to be but wasn't willing to put the work in to achieve that.

[cheapshot]

Chad, Why were you such a fan of Al Perez's work, am I missing something?

Ha ha Al has become kind of a running joke of WTBBP fans. I will say that I think his WCW stuff is largely decent to good including the actual in -ring match of him under the hood as the Black Scorpion.

 

I decided to seek out some of his other stuff in World Class and Puerto Rico as a result and was less than impressed. I come away thinking that Al could have been a good worker and had the tools to be but wasn't willing to put the work in to achieve that.

 

In your opinion, what would you say is his best match in particular? I'd like to revist some of his work, as all I really remember of Al is jobbing in WWF.

 

A side note, it appears he is currently employed by UPS. I hope he delivers a parcel one day to someone on PWO.

[soup23]

He has a quick little spirited brawl with Abby in Puerto Rico that I enjoyed a good bit. I guess just from the glimpses in Corckett, I thought he could have **** matches in him when given the opportunity as he was good with some less than stellar competition. The footage I saw didn't really back that up.

[cheapshot]

He has a quick little spirited brawl with Abby in Puerto Rico that I enjoyed a good bit. I guess just from the glimpses in Corckett, I thought he could have **** matches in him when given the opportunity as he was good with some less than stellar competition. The footage I saw didn't really back that up.

Not sure if you've seen this ever so random matchup from 1989 FLORIDA~!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfqygTWOW0

 

Mike Awesome vs. Al Perez.

[JerryvonKramer]

Feel like Pete still brings up Chad's love for Al Perez on a weekly basis.

[shoe]

Feel like Pete still brings up Chad's love for Al Perez on a weekly basis.

 

See Parv wrong again. I think the only time it was referenced was when I said when Chad and you disagree I usually side with Chad 80% of the time. Not the time he thought Perez was a potentially lost great worker though.