JerryvonKramer Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 That match from Clash 4 is really good and feels like a dream match, I actually preferred Fantastics vs. Gilbert and Simmons from the same show, but along with the Clash 1 match, would probably be the best Barry match I've seen to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I didn't see guys saying Technical Ted was "saddled" with Rotunda in that thread. I feel Windham is a guy who is given a lot more passes than people allow to others. Then again, it seems that mostly everyone prefers Windham matches than me -- people are really talking about that Sting match from Clash 3 and that Luger match from Chi-Town? I didn't think much of either of them, although did think Barry's individual performance in the Clash 3 match was very good. I didn't even think Windham/Flair was the best match on the card for Crockett Cup 87. And how come it's Bigelow's fault that that match isn't much cop? We've talked so much in recent times about why smoothness and execution and those sorts of things aren't the be all and end all, but Barry to me always seems like a guy who is just smooth, just really natural and good, but not much more. I don't see, for example, what his case for being a top-20 80s US worker would be over Technical Ted. To me, Ted can overcome some of the shortcomings and limitations of the WWF style through character work. A consummate heel through and through. He can work almost as well in that setting as he did back in Mid-South. I don't see Barry being strong in the character stakes. I don't see him being great at much beyond smoothness and execution. People are invited to tell me why I'm wrong, that's what the microscope is all about. I will also get round to seeing some of the TV matches soon. Honestly though, as Chad and I are wrapping up the 80s going through the PPVs and Clashes, I'd easily rate Ron Garvin over him. Windham v. Luger is better than any WWF Ted match I've seen. Easily. I like Ron Garvin a lot so you won't see me shit on that, but Windham was a great wrestler in my view and I like a lot of the matches you haven't. At that point what are you gonna do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'd say Ted is hurt more by the "Big Events Only" window than Windham is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Man, that is harsh on Rotundo. When Windham left and Spivey came in, Rotundo carried that team, which is a heck of a lot more challenging than being saddled with Rotundo. Rotundo is the most boring wrestler I've ever seen. No one I'd rather watch less. Bring on Mike George and Mike Rapada. Anyone but him Rotundo was boring, I'll give you that, but he was boring on a bleh guys who can supposedly work level. I wouldn't exactly call him offensive. John Naylor, Mal Sanders and Danny Collins piss me off, but they're not Big Daddy bad. I actually think Barry Windham is overrated in the same way that Owen Hart is overrated or Dustin Rhodes, guys I really like, but late 80s WWF Dibiase being better than late 80s Barry Windham holds no truck with me. No truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I didn't even think Windham/Flair was the best match on the card for Crockett Cup 87. Were you watching the commercial copy or the unedited raw footage? And how come it's Bigelow's fault that that match isn't much cop? Because he doesn't know how to sell the leg work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I really really don't think Windham vs. Luger is better than any of the Savage vs. DiBiase matches, including the one at Wrestlemania 4. I really don't. Each to his own I guess. I thought Clash 3 was really quite a shitty show all in all. No truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I would note that I am a mark for guys with multiple finishes. I am a mark for guys who can work big or small depending on need, especially if they are big. I am a mark for guys that bump big. This is Windham. I also will say that when I think about a lot of the Windham I like it's in the 90's. I love the team with Garvin for the brief period they had. I love the Flair matches and honestly think in many ways he was Flair's best opponent. I love the Lex match. I love Barry v. Eddie Gilbert. I love Barry v. Bobby Jaggers. I love the Ron Bass match. I love the match from Clash I. But I also really love the Pillman feud, the Scorp match, the various awesome tag performances in the 90's, et. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Christ, I didn't listen to the podcast but what was your thoughts on Nikita/Doc vs. Sheepherders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I really really don't think Windham vs. Luger is better than any of the Savage vs. DiBiase matches, including the one at Wrestlemania 4. I really don't. Each to his own I guess. I thought Clash 3 was really quite a shitty show all in all. No truck. I enjoy at least one of the Savage-Dibiase cage matches a good bit but the WrestleMania match was an occurrence last time I watched it. It happened and was okay really only because of the moment. However, saying those matches are better than Barry-Luger at Chi-Town 89 is something I can't see at all. Barry's selling of the hand in that match is really excellent and one of my favorite Barry performances in a singles match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I really really don't think Windham vs. Luger is better than any of the Savage vs. DiBiase matches, including the one at Wrestlemania 4. I really don't. Each to his own I guess. I thought Clash 3 was really quite a shitty show all in all. No truck. The WM IV match really wasn't that good last time I saw it. I remember thinking the Wrestlefest match was the best of their matches, but maybe I'm imagining things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I didn't even think Windham/Flair was the best match on the card for Crockett Cup 87. Were you watching the commercial copy or the unedited raw footage? We watched the commercial copy. I went back and watched the unedited raw footage and it improved the match a lot in my eyes. I still really love that Blanchard/Luger vs. Nikita/Rhodes match for Nikitas sell job but if I had watched the unedited raw footage of the Flair/Windham match it would have been my MOTN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 The Dibiase/Savage Wrestlefest match is pointless after watching the cage match blowoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Christ, I didn't listen to the podcast but what was your thoughts on Nikita/Doc vs. Sheepherders? Does this match have a reputation of being good? I thought it was slow and plodding. Parv absolutely hated it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I really really don't think Windham vs. Luger is better than any of the Savage vs. DiBiase matches, including the one at Wrestlemania 4. I really don't. Each to his own I guess. I thought Clash 3 was really quite a shitty show all in all. No truck. I enjoy at least one of the Savage-Dibiase cage matches a good bit but the WrestleMania match was an occurrence last time I watched it. It happened and was okay really only because of the moment. However, saying those matches are better than Barry-Luger at Chi-Town 89 is something I can't see at all. Barry's selling of the hand in that match is really excellent and one of my favorite Barry performances in a singles match. I really am surprised at the amount of love for Luger/Barry at chi-town. Good match with great selling by Barry but abrupt finish which made the story incomplete. Savage vs. Dibiase cage match at MSG was also under 15 minutes but told a comprehensive story and mixed in great desperation from both men and some unique cage spots. I would rank it easily above Luger/Windham from Chi-Town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Christ, I didn't listen to the podcast but what was your thoughts on Nikita/Doc vs. Sheepherders? Does this match have a reputation of being good? I thought it was slow and plodding. Parv absolutely hated it. I don't think it has a reputation at all. I just know when i watched it for the 80s nominations this is what I wrote... Nikita Koloff & Steve Williams vs. The Sheepherders - Does anyone know the backstory on why Doc and Nikita are tagging? Shit, I am going to come out and say it... this match is much better than the Fans-Sheeps match from Clash II. I think it comes down to matchups. In the Fans matches, the Sheeps are supposed to be the aggressors. However, in this matchup, Doc and Nikita are clearly the stronger duo so when the Sheeps get an advantage, they attack like wolves because if they don't, they get their asses handed to them. There is actually a sense of desperation on the heel side. Also, the Nikita FIP section was pretty damn good with some good Sheeps offense and false hope spots. The ending came out of nowhere but was pretty cool as well. Thumbs up from me and a nomination. And Bix with his follow up... These teams matched up really surprisingly well, especially given the match went pretty long at 17+ minutesl. I like all four guys but I did not expect this to be so good. The faces sold really well in their respective FIP segments while maintaining their aura, Doc's Superman comeback was a lot of fun, and the Sheepherders both brought their A-games, even breaking out big moves like the diving headbutt (one from the second rope that was on the safer side of that move and a swandive from the top rope). Plus you add Doc's ridiculous ponytailed mullet thing and you get some really enjoyable tag team professional wrestling. Definitely worth a nomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Christ, I didn't listen to the podcast but what was your thoughts on Nikita/Doc vs. Sheepherders?Hated it Will, to the extent where I gave Williams my worst worker of the night "Billy Graham" award. Flat-haired skinny Koloff might be my all-time least favourite worker. I might need to re-watch Luger vs. Windham some time because I really don't remember it being all that good -- and it was only last week I watched it. Also, if I recall correctly, Windham wasn't selling a hand job there but he'd actually injured it. Meltzer gave that match ***3/4 and I don't think that's too far off. I would probably go slightly less at ***1/2 if I had to give a rating. I do take my comment back about the Mania IV match, obviously that isn't a ***3/4 match. But I do think those two have better matches to offer. Certainly I don't think it's true that Ted has no better WWF matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Another Barry review: Barry Windham vs. Brian Pillman (3/23/91 WCW Main Event) This was a hell of feud in my opinion and I'm a fan of all their matches during this period. Pillman is wearing a brace for an injured shoulder and Barry immediately targets it to start. There's some really cool stuff in here like Pillman getting a crucifix pin early but on the way down shaking his injured shoulder in pain. Pillman's aggressiveness on Barry's knee was great and Barry sold it like a champion for the rest of the match. Pillman eventually gets slammed shoulder first into the turnbuckle and Barry gets a hold of the hurt shoulder and beats on it senselessly. At one point he stretches Pillman's bad shoulder out and does a bulldog to it. That was awesome. The match soon turns to chaos and their having a wild brawl on the floor which results in Arn coming out and further damaging Pillman's shoulder. The match ends in a double count out and the Steiners come to the aid of Pillman. The selling and pacing of this was really good stuff. The heated brawl at the end was a lot of fun too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Just rewatched the Sheeps vs. Doc/Nikita match and still not a fan. I will say on the onset that I'm not usually a fan of extended shine sequences. The first five minutes is just that. It is cool that Dr. Death and Nikita are so powerful but after a while, why don't the Sheepherders try a different strategy. They take the advantage by Death ramming himself in the post and immediately we go to commercial. Terrible timing on commercial because when we come back Doc is hulking up and sticking out his tongue. He tags in Nikita who has a quick sequence but quickly gets caught. He then gets fired into the guardrail rib first. How do the Sheepherders capitalize on this, by attacking his head and back. Huh. I also sensed no "wolves" mentality from them as it seemed like pretty generic double teaming and they were stooging a good bit in between pinfalls. I can sort of forgive Doc for going after Morgan but it was stupid nonetheless. Nikita makes hot tag and Doc fires off a decent sequence but then gets caught with double teaming. Rip Morgan is inside the ring in plain sight of Tommy Young. Doc is able to tag Nikita who fires off a fluke sickle for the pin in a spot I actually liked. I would at best call this match decent and saw some significant flaws structure wise and strategy wise on the behalf of the Sheepherders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Barry Windham vs. Dustin Rhodes (12/29/92 Philadelphia Handheld) This is shortly after Barry’s heel turn on Dustin but the crowd doesn’t care. They’re all for Barry, chanting his name and wishing for Dustin’s arm to be broken. I love Philadelphia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I stumbled on this in the March 27th 1989 Observer and thought it was topical: Interesting to see how much consensus changes over time, but I posted it because even Dave thought Windham was better than DiBiase in 89. I stress in 89 because 80-88 it's clear that he prefers Ted. I am amazed to see Bossman ranked above Hansen there, not that it is explained anywhere exactly what this list is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'd argue that Bossman has better matches in WWF than Dibiase does. He probably has better matches with Hogan, there's the Barbarian PPV match. Twin Towers vs Demos series is better than all but maybe the top top end Money Inc vs Nasties or Natural Disasters matches (and i feel like we don't have most of the latter on tape). He has a few really good matches with Earthquake in 91-92. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 That Observer list is so fantastically authentic as a time capsule of 1989 Dave. I love it. Where's all that 1989 Negro Casas and how we get it for the lucha set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'd argue that Bossman has better matches in WWF than Dibiase does. He probably has better matches with Hogan, there's the Barbarian PPV match. Twin Towers vs Demos series is better than all but maybe the top top end Money Inc vs Nasties or Natural Disasters matches (and i feel like we don't have most of the latter on tape). He has a few really good matches with Earthquake in 91-92. Are you on the windup Matt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'd argue that Bossman has better matches in WWF than Dibiase does. He probably has better matches with Hogan, there's the Barbarian PPV match. Twin Towers vs Demos series is better than all but maybe the top top end Money Inc vs Nasties or Natural Disasters matches (and i feel like we don't have most of the latter on tape). He has a few really good matches with Earthquake in 91-92. Are you on the windup Matt? I have no windup truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I draw the line at Bossman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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