1980s Wrestling Party Podcast #6 aka No Rest for the Wicked

[goodhelmet]

Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. High Flyers (3/7/85)

Rick Martel vs. Jimmy Garvin (3/7/85)

The Road Warriors vs. High Flyers (3/28/85)

Mr. Saito vs. Curt Hennig (3/28/85)

Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (3/28/85)

Bob Backlund & Brad Rheingans vs. Butch Reed & Larry Zbyszko (4/21/85)

 

Johnny P said he was open for tonight so we go back to back and kill off Disc 4. Johnny Sorrow will be kicking it at the strip club so no Sorrow tonight. Everyone else is free to join in and grace us with your presence.

Once I have a definitive time, I'll post the time in this thread.

[Matt D]

Was it Johnny P who talked about going in between holds and action on the last one and how he digs that? The 3/28 Martel match is really built like that. Hold/Hope spot/Hold, so he ought to like that a lot. Also, Will, I know you listen with sound. The best moment on the entire set is in that match when Bock turns the boring chants on Martel.

[Exposer]

The best moment on the entire set is in that match when Bock turns the boring chants on Martel.

"Come on Martel! You're boring them! You're boring them!"

[soup23]

If it tops him pointing out to the crowd before Hennan puts on the weasel suit in the most condescending way, I will be impressed.

[goodhelmet]

Matt, I'll ask Johnny tonight if he said that. As for sound, I am with Phil Schneider when it comes to crowds... Who gives a shit if they like a match or not? What matters is if i like a match. I will pay attention to the boring chant though.

[Matt D]

It's not the boring chant. I agree with you guys on that. I don't generally care about the crowd either. It's one of those things that can add but not subtract, to me. Here, though it's all about how Bock responds to it, which is an element of performance and IS something I care about, and in this specific moment, something that's such a no-brainer but that I've also never, ever seen before.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I love that bit. I'd imagine Martel had a hard time not cracking up.

[goodhelmet]

Show starts in a little less than 2 hours. Have me and Johnny P confirmed for tonight. Everyone else is welcome to join along.

 

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...6382&cmd=tc

[goc]

I'm glad you guys are doing these because it gives me an excuse to put this set on the back burner until you guys catch up to me at Disc 10. My interest in later days AWA has quickly tapered off and maybe I'll join in at that point to help me get through. Now I can jump into the El Dandy set or maybe the Memphis Bulk stuff.

[goodhelmet]

You should join in.

[Johnny P]

Yeah, Matt D is right. It was me doing my whole "changing levels" spiel. Not the only type of match i like, but when it's a Bock match, and specifically against Martel, I'm a fan of the up and down, changing levels pacing as long as they give effort and really work the holds. Matt, i will most likely LOVE that match as those two have been my personal favorites so far (did disks 1 and 2, skipped ahead to disc 4 to do podcast with Will)

[Matt D]

The 9/30/84 one of theirs on disc 3 is my favorite, so double back for that, but I read my write up of the one for 3/28 and I specifically talked about them doing exactly what you were talking about, so I figure you'll dig it.

[Johnny P]

Just finished with Will. Wow, two man team and we didn't have more than 5 seconds of dead air ever. Really enjoyed doing the show with Will. We DID NOT agree on everything, and half of the disagreement didn't even have to do with matches we were watching at the time. Lots of style and presentation discussion, and all kinds of wrestling tropes we love or don't like as much, and basically a shit ton of talk about the little things in matches. Its a very different show from those you'll hear where a whole group is talking. Check it out. Give us feedback. Get some discussions started. I'll try and check back tomorrow to see if anyone listened. Friday and Saturday are looking like busy days in Philly and NYC respectively, so if I disappear on a conversation, I apologize in advance.

[goodhelmet]

Tonight's show is up and running. Just me and Johnny P tonight. The time just flew by as Johnny and I embarrass ourselves and mark out over a great night of wrestling. MAtt D gets multiple shout outs. Johnny forgets Paul Ellering's name. I forget the finish of half the matches right after watching them. We give deep, thought provoking analysis like trying to remember the name of the drop toe hold. Two back to back nights with Johnny P. Listen to the shows and let us know what you think.

 

 

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...6382&cmd=tc

 

 

We'll be back on Friday with Sorrow and Kris Z in the fold and anyone else who wants to join us.

[Matt D]

Right from the get go, I think Johnny P offers something different, because while he's an insider in a lot of ways he's not necessarily an active part of the board or DVDVR so it's an outside voice. And while I like the podcast and it's really highlighting matches I want to rewatch, what I really am a fan of is the project, because to me this is the bravest of the bunch and is moving the needle more than any other.

 

I think Saito/Bock vs High Flyers gets points because it's one of the most traditional tags on the set, but still highlights so much of the AWA-ness. Bock the bond villain (or Mary Tyler Moore supporting character) and Oddjob vs the world's most unlikely but still super over bj tag team. It has all that AWA struggle over holds. I think it had one of the best hot tags of the set, one of the best FIPs and a very good finish for the set. It's not the spectacle that some of the Rose/Somers stuff is but it's really solid. Also, I loved that crab spot too. It's sitting pretty at #13 on my proto ballot.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Bock the Mary Tyler Moore supporting character

I am so jealous of that joke. I'm totally stealing it.

[Matt D]

Martel is a really frustrating case. That said, he still has a good amount of really solid face matches in WWF, so maybe it was the heel turn that crippled him. THAT said, watching Hennig as heel in AWA and then as a heel in WWF and especially watching that Hennig/Martel tag match from Japan, you really see how they were neutered. There is drive and the cream rising to the top but when you're getting obviously paid a lot of money to do something a specific way, you do it a specific way.

 

The Garvin match is a little forgettable for me, and I think it was a fairly strong feud if you watch the PWUSA stuff setting it up. To me, the biggest takeaway was that Garvin should have jumped to Vince instead. He would have fit right into the Rock'n'Wrestling era.

 

High praise from me is the shine period of the Roadies match feeling like one of the really good Demolition vs Small Guys shines, where the faces would use quick and effective limbwork to CONTAIN the monsters, where you get the feel that one mistake and the heels will overwhelm. That's a huge majority of Demos vs Rougeaus/Bees/Bulldogs/Strike Force shines and that's one of the reason I enjoy them so much relative to other WWF tags of the era. There's a reason for why I like what I like dammit. Almost all of the Demos vs small, quick guys matches are worked that way but with enough resistance by the Demos that it doesn't feel like standard pointless WWF Heel in Peril. Ok enough of that. Sorry. I'm done, promise.

 

My guess is that the Warriors here are giving so much because it's Greg, but it really works and the Flyers DO have the credibility to make it work since they've survived through some of the wars earlier in the set. I hate the finish of that match. What's the point of making a big deal of sending Ellering away if he's just going to come back. It's one of my least favorite finishes on the whole set.

 

Saito vs Hennig is sitting at #27 for me. There was a lot I liked here but I pretty much hated the nerve hold. I thought Curt's intensity was great and Saito was so good in his role.

 

The side commentary about "giving the fans what they want" is important, but I don't think it has a lot to do with what we discuss. It's not really an argument that is useful to what we do here. We have our own norms here. They're not always the same. Some of them can be universally applied. I think all of us can have a discussion with each other. We talk the same language here and understand each other even if we're not always talking about the same things. And literally just as I was typing this, Will shoots out another shoutout to me saying something pretty damn similar, so that was weirdly timely.

 

I have the Martel match as the #2 Bock-Martel match on the set and it's in my top 10, though not as high as the first, though it does have probably my favorite moment on the entire set which pushes it up. I'm glad you guys caught it. It's just such a brilliant way to use a crowd to one's advantage and shows such an understanding of the art of pro wrestling. I probably have to rewatch stuff around it on my list.

[Exposer]

Saito vs Hennig is sitting at #27 for me. There was a lot I liked here but I pretty much hated the nerve hold.

Strangely enough, I actually enjoyed the nerve hold and thought Curt did a great job of it working underneath.

[Matt D]

I did like Curt's screaming. I did not like Saito just being a lump. And in general I might not have minded it but AWA was such a hold-based promotion and almost all of them were worked as a rule. It's one of maybe ten holds on the whole set I didn't feel was worked well.

 

Larry does really stall all the time, but it's great. It's a tool just like Lawler's heel chain stuff. He doesn't have to stall. He chooses to stall. And really, in these matches when he's a little bit younger than when a lot of people remember him from, he was like a shark who sensed blood when he got his opening.

 

The interesting thing in his matches is how the faces deal with it. Wait til the first Bock vs Larry match.

 

I'm guessing that's another match that was helped by watching in a group.

 

1. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (3/28/85)

2. Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. High Flyers (3/7/85)

3. Mr. Saito vs. Curt Hennig (3/28/85)

6. The Road Warriors vs. High Flyers (3/28/85)

7. Rick Martel vs. Jimmy Garvin (3/7/85)

8. Bob Backlund & Brad Rheingans vs. Butch Reed & Larry Zbyszko

[goodhelmet]

Both Johnny and I were marking out during the Larry Z match and were pretty specific about why we liked the match. Not the best tag on the set (the faces were not that strong) but much better than boring ass Steve O and Dino Bravo. Plus he heel team was awesome the whole way through. Thumbs up from me and Johnny. As for Hennig and Saito, I can rewatch it but I don't think my opinion will deviate much.

[Matt D]

I wasn't necessarily saying that in a negative way for that specific match. I know I zoned out during the bear hug while watching that alone, which might not have happened in a group setting. Me zoning out on a match doesn't necessarily mean that it was bad by any means, just that my brain went elsewhere.

[Johnny P]

I'm rewatching that Hennig vs Saito match for sure. BOTH Matt and and Dylan have that really high, and they've pointed out some things where i feel like maybe if i watch it alone, with sound, and not after a bunch of other stuff, I'll have a different opinion. I think in a group or tandem setting the tag matches are capturing me more than the singles, which is often the opposite when I'm left to watch this stuff as single servings alone. Might say more about me and my whims than that match, so I'm giving it another watch.

[Johnny P]

The giving people what they want versus what we do here debate/argument is interesting to me. I feel like a lot of us make allownances for "what gets over" and factor that in, but Matt also has a good point. i mean, in self evaluating my rankings, ratings, and overall likes, I'm often faced with the fact that when watching these sets I AM enjoying myself, but I'm critiquing from a point of looking for perfection, or finding a new favorite based on DRAMA and epic storytelling. I LOVe the hidden gems and neat little matches like that RNR match from all Japan, or the Roadies vs High Flyers match I admittedly have probably over-rated, but I've realized I tend to pick apart matches and split hair to get refined rankings, and A LOT of that is based on my personal leaning of what stories and match work emotionally involves me. A LOT of stuff that is over with the crowd just does nothing for me, or I'll get captured by something like the first hogan vs Bock (the consensus being its a good glorified squash) because I see some storytelling element that I personally love, and the rest of you be damned. Ya know?

 

So we are influences by crowds at times. we are influenced by each other. We all do bring a million leanings into these discussions. I LOVE the nuances of how we percieve this stuff, and that's what a lot of the conversations i wanted to have with Will last night were based on. Interesting stuff.

 

Just a little background on me, Matt: I'm a lurker here just because of lack of time (the threads are 2-4 pages deep before i find them), but I've been reading this board for a few years. I post on Death Valley, but only in the 80s section, and because of my film I'm way late with AWA (look at All Japan threads, I was one of the discussion molders, like you with AWA). So I've been around. I'm friends with a lot of the people on the boards and in the hobby on a personal level, so half the time i read stuff in a thread and I'll just call Dylan or Will. For whatever reason posting fell back in my mind

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I've enjoyed listening to these podcasts on my way to work. Now, in addition to spending too much of my free time watching wrestling, I also spend too much time listening to other people watching wrestling.

 

I like the organic format of this type of show better than the results podcasts that usually accompnay the end of an 80s project. The results pods are still fun, but these as-it-happens types of shows are easier to follow. It's hard to cram in thoughts on so many matches and wrestlers in one results podcast. Plus it can be hard remember exactly which matches are being talked about.

 

EDIT: If you're ever between 80s sets and still looking to feed people's wrestling podcast fix, I think it'd be fun to pick out a random disc from a yearbook or another comp and do a show on that.

[Cox]

I would be down for a Yearbook 90 podcast. With more things included on the Yearbook comps that are strictly for comedic value, I have to imagine that would play well in a group watching setting where people can shit all over it.