Booking philosophies of match sequencing

[jdw]

As for peaks and troughs I don't know. If the filler matches weren't needed before Hogan vs. Warrior, why did they program that way?

 

I'm talking in the other direction: if it went Steamer-Savage then Hogan-Andre, back-to-back to close the card, do you really think Hogan-Andre... the most anticipated match of that entire generation... the one that sold 90K tickets couldn't have followed Steamer-Savage?

 

I actually do think having Hogan-Andre immediately follow Savage-Steamboat would have been a problem. For many WWF-centric fans, Savage-Steamboat was the greatest thing they'd ever seen and to have Hogan work an immobile Andre directly after did pose a legitimate risk of cooling the crowd. As it stood, I remember more fans talking about Savage-Steamboat when it was over. All anyone remembered about the main event was that Hogan bodyslammed the Giant.

 

 

Totally disagree with this. The crowd buzzed, and they opened "hot" with Andre's nearfall.

 

Some of us may think it's a boring, laying around match. I certain did at the time. But WWF fans ate the shit up. It was the biggest match in history to WWF fans at the time.

 

 

WM3 was well laid-out in terms of match sequencing. There were three main matches people want to see and WWF gave them Piper-Adonis in the first 3rd, Savage-Steamboat in the middle and Hogan-Andre at the end. Plenty of time for people to mark the fuck out for the matches in question and still recharge for the big finish.

Again, this is simply the way Vince and co like to do things. I think we all agree that Savage-Steamer could have followed Piper-Adonis, and in turn Hogan-Andre could have followed anything that day, including Jesus coming back in the semifinal.

 

John

[Dooley]

Totally disagree with this. The crowd buzzed, and they opened "hot" with Andre's nearfall.

 

Some of us may think it's a boring, laying around match. I certain did at the time. But WWF fans ate the shit up. It was the biggest match in history to WWF fans at the time.

Yes, but the crowd also had a long rest period from "holy shit that was the coolest thing I've ever seen" to gear back up for the mega-match. The same way they had time after Piper's "retirement" match to gear up for Savage-Steamboat. If they had to go straight from Savage and Steamboat tearing the house down and going a million miles an hour (by WWF standards at the time), they may not have been as kind to the lumbering Giant.

 

 

Again, this is simply the way Vince and co like to do things.

Yes it's the way Vince likes to do things. By that same token, it's what the WWF audience had been trained to expect. A deviation from that risks producing a different result.

 

I think we all agree that Savage-Steamer could have followed Piper-Adonis, and in turn Hogan-Andre could have followed anything that day, including Jesus coming back in the semifinal.

No we don't all agree, that's why we're having the discussion Even Meltzer speculated at the time that Hogan-Andre might go on in the middle to cover for what he figured was going to be a stinker of a match and to keep them from following something hot.

[jdw]

Totally disagree with this. The crowd buzzed, and they opened "hot" with Andre's nearfall.

 

Some of us may think it's a boring, laying around match. I certain did at the time. But WWF fans ate the shit up. It was the biggest match in history to WWF fans at the time.

Yes, but the crowd also had a long rest period from "holy shit that was the coolest thing I've ever seen" to gear back up for the mega-match. The same way they had time after Piper's "retirement" match to gear up for Savage-Steamboat. If they had to go straight from Savage and Steamboat tearing the house down and going a million miles an hour (by WWF standards at the time), they may not have been as kind to the lumbering Giant.

So never in the history of the WWF have there been two matches back-to-back that have gotten heat, especially when the second one was the most anticipated match of the year (decade / history) for the WWF?

 

Seriously... you're arguing that (i) Because There Was A Cooling Down Period that there (ii) Must Always Be A Cooling Down Period.

 

As far as the fans watching the lumbering Giant, despite him lumbering in that match, they paid to see him at Summer Slam, County Park, Survivors, and set a TV record to watch him lumber with Hogan on NBC with the Two Hebners. Just because you and I thought he was lumbering doesn't mean that WWF Fans at the time weren't losing their shit for him.

 

 

 

Again, this is simply the way Vince and co like to do things.

Yes it's the way Vince likes to do things. By that same token, it's what the WWF audience had been trained to expect. A deviation from that risks producing a different result.

What training?

 

Mania I

WWF Tag Title: Mike Rotundo & Barry Windham vs Nikolai Volkoff & Iron Sheik - title change

Andre the Giant vs Big John Studd (bodyslam match)

WWF Womens Title: Leilani Kai vs Wendi Richter (w/ Cyndi Lauper) - title change

Hulk Hogan & Mr. T vs Roddy Piper & Paul Orndorff

 

Those were the last four matches. They were the most pushed matches. The womens match was *massively* pushed because of Lauper. Was there a lack of heat for Hogan and the main event having to follow those three matches? Were there heat issues with any of them given that stack?

 

Mania II has a Double Main Event in Chicago, with the heavily pushed Battle Royal (with all the football players + Andre) followed by the Tag Title match. Clearly the Tag Title match didn't have any problems getting heat at the second half of the main event in that building.

 

So basically what happened at Mania III was that Vince "invented" a new way to lay out a PPV card. I don't think he had any fear of Hogan-Andre being able to follow *any* match in the WWF, that day or any other day. I think what he wanted by spreading out the three big matches was to keep the fans from being bored by the matches they cared far less about in the 3+ hours looooooooong card. The problem weren't the Big Matches, or putting them together. It's that it was a massive card filled with a lot of matches that the 90K fans didn't care remotely about relative to Hogan-Andre.

 

 

I think we all agree that Savage-Steamer could have followed Piper-Adonis, and in turn Hogan-Andre could have followed anything that day, including Jesus coming back in the semifinal.

No we don't all agree, that's why we're having the discussion Even Meltzer speculated at the time that Hogan-Andre might go on in the middle to cover for what he figured was going to be a stinker of a match and to keep them from following something hot.

Dave didn't like the WWF at the time, and didn't care for Hogan. Hell... he thought the match was a stinker anyway. But watch it: the fans ate the shit up. It's the match they came for, and they dug it. At the time... Dave wasn't very good at getting that. So him being wrong going in doesn't mean anything.

 

John

[Dooley]

Seriously... you're arguing that (i) Because There Was A Cooling Down Period that there (ii) Must Always Be A Cooling Down Period.

You were the one who said Vince has a certain way of doing things. I'm actually agreeing on that point. I'm also saying Vince did a good job of protecting Hogan-Andre by not having it follow Savage-Steamboat.

 

As far as the fans watching the lumbering Giant, despite him lumbering in that match, they paid to see him at Summer Slam, County Park, Survivors, and set a TV record to watch him lumber with Hogan on NBC with the Two Hebners. Just because you and I thought he was lumbering doesn't mean that WWF Fans at the time weren't losing their shit for him.

That's all fair. But you'll notice that in not a single one of those cards did he have to follow anything as good or even with the potential to be as good as something like Savage-Steamboat. Again, they were protected and no one got the feeling like they were outworked by the previous match or that the previous match felt more important.

 

Summerslam- followed Jake and Hercules and a Boss Man-Koko squash

Survivors - the entire show was basically a novelty

County Park- followed Bravo and Patera

Main Event - followed Savage-Honky, which had heat no doubt, but no one was ever going to mistake it for Savage-Steamboat

 

What training?

 

Mania I

WWF Tag Title: Mike Rotundo & Barry Windham vs Nikolai Volkoff & Iron Sheik - title change

Andre the Giant vs Big John Studd (bodyslam match)

WWF Womens Title: Leilani Kai vs Wendi Richter (w/ Cyndi Lauper) - title change

Hulk Hogan & Mr. T vs Roddy Piper & Paul Orndorff

 

Those were the last four matches. They were the most pushed matches. The womens match was *massively* pushed because of Lauper. Was there a lack of heat for Hogan and the main event having to follow those three matches? Were there heat issues with any of them given that stack?

You're really going to sit there with a straight face and compare Richter-Moolah to Savage-Steamboat?

 

While it got a push due to the celebrity tie-in, women's matches have always been novelty matches in the WWF, a distraction before they get back to business. I think that example actually helps my point more than hurting it.

 

Mania II has a Double Main Event in Chicago, with the heavily pushed Battle Royal (with all the football players + Andre) followed by the Tag Title match. Clearly the Tag Title match didn't have any problems getting heat at the second half of the main event in that building.

You think a crowd would ever be burned out after a battle royal? While I like them, a lot of it is just watching guys stand around a lot. Again, a novelty tie-in with the football players before they go to the title match.

 

So basically what happened at Mania III was that Vince "invented" a new way to lay out a PPV card. I don't think he had any fear of Hogan-Andre being able to follow *any* match in the WWF, that day or any other day. I think what he wanted by spreading out the three big matches was to keep the fans from being bored by the matches they cared far less about in the 3+ hours looooooooong card. The problem weren't the Big Matches, or putting them together. It's that it was a massive card filled with a lot of matches that the 90K fans didn't care remotely about relative to Hogan-Andre.

I actually don't think we're that far apart on this. I'm just saying Vince protects his main events from being overshadowed and gives his crowds time to recharge.

 

On that day, if Hogan-Andre had to follow Savage-Steamboat which was almost a consensus greatest WWF match ever among WWF fans at the time, Hogan-Andre might have suffered. Vince was smart to realize that and keep the two separated.

[JerryvonKramer]

I also watched Heenan/Warrior and the simple fact is it's just not that funny.

I didn't find it a hoot. But then again... how many people laughed at Mae Young's kid? We might not find it funny, but it clearly was a comedy spot.

 

The point was never about whether or not US shows have comedy spots, it was about whether or not US crowds laugh in the same way Japanese crowds do (and even more specifically how that comes across on TV).

 

Not really going to respond to the rest of what you had to say. Randomly and arbitrarily accusing me of binarism in my thinking just feels like jumping on the nearest and most convenient point -- to the extent where I suspect that had I not added the binary coda to that post, you wouldn't have mentioned it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I would too. I think it's a matter of how the matches are worked. I wouldn't even call that "good" or "bad". It's more about understanding what preceded the match and what is to follow, and working the right type of match for that spot on the card.

I'm interested in this point, Loss.

 

Here's a question: if Savage vs. Steamboat was scheduled right behind Hogan vs. Andre, would they have worked the match in the same way? Would that have been the right type of match for that spot on the card? Just a talking point.

[Loss]

In that case, I don't think they would have needed to change anything, because the matches were different enough. But putting a technical masterpiece immediately after a bloody brawl is usually a guarantee that the technical match won't have the heat that it should.

 

Still, there are exceptions to every rule, and I don't think there's one right way to create a wrestling show.

[ohtani's jacket]

It seems to me that this is the type of thing that gets judged in hindsight.

[Matt D]

One example:

 

Starcade 94.

 

Vader vs Duggan is a really peculiar match because there aren't a ton of Vader's big man spots. I'm not sure if there are any. It's much more of a brawl. I'm convinced the big reason for this was because they didn't want to dilute Sting vs Avalanche which was higher on the card.

[jdw]

Seriously... you're arguing that (i) Because There Was A Cooling Down Period that there (ii) Must Always Be A Cooling Down Period.

You were the one who said Vince has a certain way of doing things. I'm actually agreeing on that point. I'm also saying Vince did a good job of protecting Hogan-Andre by not having it follow Savage-Steamboat.

Again, there's no evidence that Vince thought like that:

 

"I'm worried about the biggest most anticipated match I've ever promoted following the IC Title match... because Hogan can never follow an action packed match and I never would allow that to happen..."

 

 

 

WWF @ Milwaukee, WI - Arena - October 23, 1986 (9,902)

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage fought Jake Roberts to a double disqualification

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & the Crusher defeated Big John Studd & King Kong Bundy

 

WWF @ Detroit, MI - October 25, 1986 (21,000; sell out)

Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage via count-out

Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification

 

WWF @ Providence, RI - Civic Center - October 31, 1986

Scott McGhee, WWF Tag Team Champions Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Greg Valentine, Brutus Beefcake, & Johnny V

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff in a steel cage match

 

WWF @ Long Island, NY - Nassau Coliseum - November 3, 1986 (12,000)

WWF Tag Team Champions Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake in a Texas Tornado Match

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff via count-out

 

That's less than a 10 stretch, with Hogan following two of the WWF's "hottest" workrate pairings of the period, along with the Savage-Jake match coming off their heated and terrific SNME match up. We can go back from there and find countless times where Hogan followed a Savage Match or a Bulldogs Match or other WWF Workrate Matches (such as the Harts vs Rougeau or Killer Bees.

 

They really didn't have issues running Hogan after workrate matches. #1 - the WWF didn't think that way as workrate meant shit to Vince. #2 - Hogan was more over than God with WWF fans, so Vince never worried about him following anything.

 

As far as the fans watching the lumbering Giant, despite him lumbering in that match, they paid to see him at Summer Slam, County Park, Survivors, and set a TV record to watch him lumber with Hogan on NBC with the Two Hebners. Just because you and I thought he was lumbering doesn't mean that WWF Fans at the time weren't losing their shit for him.

That's all fair. But you'll notice that in not a single one of those cards did he have to follow anything as good or even with the potential to be as good as something like Savage-Steamboat. Again, they were protected and no one got the feeling like they were outworked by the previous match or that the previous match felt more important.

This would mean something if WWF PPV's were regularly having matches pushed as hard as Steamer-Savage that were as good as Steamer-Savage and that Vince knew going in would be as good as Steamer-Savage (even if Vince knew that about Steamer-Savage). There were exactly Zero PPV matches like that in the Hogan Era. Even something that after-the-fact was as great as Savage-Warrior wasn't thought to be a lock to be as good as Steamer-Savage going in. That frankly was part of the buzz about that match: it was much better than anyone expected.

 

So saying that he never had to follow something like Steamer-Savage is meaningless. :/

 

Summerslam- followed Jake and Hercules and a Boss Man-Koko squash

I think that was part of my point: at III, Vince was developing his way of laying out PPV cards. It wasn't at all the case a I or II.

 

Survivors - the entire show was basically a novelty

Well... it's kind of funny that you mention Survivors since on the first one, Hogan followed the match that was most likely to be "good" and "heated" and "workrate" of the non-Hogan matches: the tag team survivor match. And it was the one that got most of the praise off the card.

 

County Park- followed Bravo and Patera

Which is a House Show rather than a PPV, and I can point to dozens of house shows where Hogan followed a workrate match.

 

 

Main Event - followed Savage-Honky, which had heat no doubt, but no one was ever going to mistake it for Savage-Steamboat

We actually don't know when at tapings the matches were filmed for SNME, nor the order they were filmed in relative to how they were edited for TV. It's probably best to just set them aside.

 

What training?

 

Mania I

WWF Tag Title: Mike Rotundo & Barry Windham vs Nikolai Volkoff & Iron Sheik - title change

Andre the Giant vs Big John Studd (bodyslam match)

WWF Womens Title: Leilani Kai vs Wendi Richter (w/ Cyndi Lauper) - title change

Hulk Hogan & Mr. T vs Roddy Piper & Paul Orndorff

 

Those were the last four matches. They were the most pushed matches. The womens match was *massively* pushed because of Lauper. Was there a lack of heat for Hogan and the main event having to follow those three matches? Were there heat issues with any of them given that stack?

You're really going to sit there with a straight face and compare Richter-Moolah to Savage-Steamboat?

In terms of push? It was *more* pushed than Steamer-Savage.

 

While it got a push due to the celebrity tie-in, women's matches have always been novelty matches in the WWF, a distraction before they get back to business. I think that example actually helps my point more than hurting it.

This actually wasn't a distraction. It would be like Vince vs Hogan being a "distraction" on the Mania card that it appeared on: it was pushed hard as a major part of the card.

 

 

 

Mania II has a Double Main Event in Chicago, with the heavily pushed Battle Royal (with all the football players + Andre) followed by the Tag Title match. Clearly the Tag Title match didn't have any problems getting heat at the second half of the main event in that building.

You think a crowd would ever be burned out after a battle royal? While I like them, a lot of it is just watching guys stand around a lot. Again, a novelty tie-in with the football players before they go to the title match.

Given the local tie in, where that match in Chicago was pushed even harder than the tag title, who knows. On top if it being well booked to come down to Andre and the Harts.

 

 

 

I actually don't think we're that far apart on this. I'm just saying Vince protects his main events from being overshadowed and gives his crowds time to recharge.

I'm saying Vince doesn't give a shit about protecting his main events. I mean... did he protect Trip-Jericho from Rock-Hogan? Vince doesn't think in those teams.

 

Instead, he thinks in terms of avoiding fans getting bored out of their minds by the undercard they didn't really pay to see, and instead likes to give them highpoints earlier in the card to pick them up. "Calming down before the next high" isn't what he worries about. It's them sitting there for two hours watching stuff they're less interested in before the Good Stuff comes out last.

 

 

On that day, if Hogan-Andre had to follow Savage-Steamboat which was almost a consensus greatest WWF match ever among WWF fans at the time, Hogan-Andre might have suffered. Vince was smart to realize that and keep the two separated.

I don't even think that WWF Fans at the time thought that. WWF Fans really didn't think in terms of workrate. Anymore than JCP fans thought that Flair-Garvin was better than the match where Dusty won the title from Ric.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

I have to back up JDW here. Richter/ Kai was in no way a novelty match. It was super-pushed and was the payoff for the entire MTV Rock n' Wrestling angle that started all of this. Women's wrestling may have been a novelty before Cyndi Lauper, and it may have dropped back down to novelty after Mania and Richter getting fucked out of the belt, but for the time period between...it was pushed as being almost as important as Hogan/ T vs Piper/ Orndorff, considering it was kinda married to it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the more interesting question to ask is why Vince changed his from regular match sequencing for Manias and (and Summerslams). But I guess we'll never know short of asking him. I mean whatever anyone says, jdw's take is just a guess, as is Dooley's, as is mine or anyone else's. There's not a lot we can extrapolate from looking at house shows or other big events prior to the Mania era. The PPVs were booked differently, the "why" we've been trying to figure out.

 

It's not something they stuck with for all that long. It was only for a 4-5 year stretch that Vince was booking his PPVs that way.

 

Look at Wrestlemania X. I wonder if Shawn vs. Razor ladder match hurt Bret vs. Yokozuna at all. Been over a decade since I watched that show but I don't recall it hurting, and most people in that crowd had probably never seen a ladder match. Wrestlemania XI stacked the card late (Bret vs. Backlund, Diesiel vs. Shawn, Bam Bam vs. Taylor).

 

As this thread documents, the WWF started booking their shows differently in general from about 1993 onwards. The match sequencing on big shows was yet another thing to change. Might Pat Patterson be the differentiator?