Ranking the European workers

[ohtani's jacket]

Now that I've watched a couple of hundred European matches, I thought I'd set about trying to form some sort of hierarchy of workers.

 

To do this, I concentrated on workers whom I've seen at least five or so matches from. That means no Adrian Street, Masambula, Jackie Pallo, Dave Barrie, Peter Szakacs, Abe Ginsberg, Billy Robinson, and the like.

 

I also ignored strictly comedy workers such as Catweazle or Billy Torontos, as well as the super heavyweights whom I have no interest in. I tend to avoid the blue-eyed, boy apprentices like the plague, so you won't find too many of them listed either.

 

The time frame covers roughly 20 years from 1970-1990.

 

All-Time Greats

 

Jim Breaks, Mick McManus, Alan Sarjeant, Jon Cortez, Marty Jones, Steve Grey

 

Great Workers

 

Terry Rudge, Tibor Szacaks, Mike Marino

 

Excellent Workers

 

Bobby Barnes, Robby Baron, Franz van Buyten, Clive Myers, Steve Veidor, Sid Cooper, Alan Kilby, Pat Roach

 

Strong Hands

 

Johnny Czeslaw, John Elijah, Tiger Dalibar Singh, Pete Roberts, Keith Haward, Brian Maxine, Caswell Martin, Clay Thomson, Johnny Kwango, Steve Logan (Snr), Les Kellett, Chic Cullen, Romany Riley, Alan Wood, Pete Roberts, Axl Dieter, Bobby Ryan, Dave Finlay

 

Decent Hands

 

Tony St. Clair, Jim Moser, Peter La Paque, Colin Joynson, Ray Robinson, Johnny Kincaid, Vic Faulkner, John Kowalski, Johnny South, Ken Joyce, Tom Tyrone, Ivan Penzekoff, Ringo Rigby, Rocky Moran, Jeff Kaye, Johnny Kidd, Young David, Otto Wanz, John Quinn, Tony Walsh, Rene Lasartesse, Dynamite Kid, Steve Regal

 

Average

 

Kung Fu, Alan Dennison, Tony Charles, Mick McMichael, Bert Royal. Roy St. Clair, Court Baretlli, Lee Bronson, Tarzan Johnny Wilson, Honey Boy Zimba, Ray Steele, Bob Kirkwood, Kendo Nagasaki, Skull Murphy, Johnny England, Mike Jordan, Tally Ho Kaye, Kid Chocolate, Lenny Hurst, Dave Taylor

 

Overrated

 

Johnny Saint, Marc Rocco, Steve Wright, Zolton Boscik, Eddie Capelli, Wayne Bridges

 

Annoying As Fuck

 

John Naylor, Mal Sanders, Danny Collins, Chris Adams

[JerryvonKramer]

OJ, just out of interest, did you watch any European promotions outside of Britain? If so, what were they and what did you make of them? I can see you've listed Wanz there.

[Slasher]

The list would be better if you redistributed the overrated folks into the other brackets. Being overrated means nothing to me in terms of quality. It is like if I put Ric Flair in my overrated list... it doesn't tell the real story.

[Robert S]

OJ, just out of interest, did you watch any European promotions outside of Britain? If so, what were they and what did you make of them? I can see you've listed Wanz there.

There are other non-Brits on the list. From the names I recognize Axel Dieter is German, Franz Van Buyten is Belgian and René Lasartesse is Swiss.

[ohtani's jacket]

Jerry, I've watched a few matches from Belgium, Germany and Austria.

 

Overrated is worse than average in my view, though I suppose if I were to redistribute those names they would fall between decent and average. Saint and Rocco were capable of excellent matches against top opposition and occasionally they carried a lesser, inexperienced worker to something good, but I don't think they were excellent in and of themselves. The other guys are hurt by not living up to their reputations. Wright is just flat out average in nearly all his matches.

[Al]

Young David = Davey Boy Smith?

 

John Quinn always intrigued me as he had a significant WWWF run as Virgil the Kentucky Butcher.

 

And I don't see Big Daddy. I assume you meant to put him under all time greats, correct? (And yes, I'm joking)

[Slasher]

Jerry, I've watched a few matches from Belgium, Germany and Austria.

 

Overrated is worse than average in my view, though I suppose if I were to redistribute those names they would fall between decent and average. Saint and Rocco were capable of excellent matches against top opposition and occasionally they carried a lesser, inexperienced worker to something good, but I don't think they were excellent in and of themselves. The other guys are hurt by not living up to their reputations. Wright is just flat out average in nearly all his matches.

Well that's better. At least a clarification was needed, for me, to get a full picture. I am totally ignorant to British wrestling beyond the reputations of Breaks, McManus, Pallo and Saint.

 

Edit: and well Crabtree. I am not including the guys who made a big part of their careers in the US like Davey, DK, Regal, Adams, etc.

[ohtani's jacket]

Young David = Davey Boy Smith?

 

John Quinn always intrigued me as he had a significant WWWF run as Virgil the Kentucky Butcher.

 

And I don't see Big Daddy. I assume you meant to put him under all time greats, correct? (And yes, I'm joking)

Young David is a teenage Davey Boy Smith. We have footage of him from '78 through to '83.

 

John Quinn had a fun run as a loud mouth Yank, though he was actually Canadian. He was unceremoniously jobbed to the fat man, but it was a good run all the same. He cut promos before his matches, which was rare in the WoS format, and was so over he turned Pat Roach face, and Roach had been somewhere near the top of the tree of rule breakers. He ended up jumping to All-Star with one of the belts, if I remember right.

 

I ignored Daddy, Haystacks and the rest. I don't mind Kendo Nagasaki, but Daddy isn't something I seek out. He did have a really good technical match with John Elijah, though, which surprised me. If he'd worked like that more often he could have been as good as Otto Wanz.

[Bix]

What later Young David matches are there? I think he went to Calgary in '82.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think he went to Calgary in '81 then returned to the UK in '82 and '83 the way that Dynamite Kid would sometimes reappear.

 

These are the matches from after his move:

 

Young David vs. Dave Finlay (Hemel Hempstead, 13/3/1982)

Young David vs. Pete Roberts (Bolton, 17/4/1982)

Young David vs. Bernie Wright (Leamington Spa, 19/2/1983)

[ohtani's jacket]

OK, Bobby Ryan jumps all the way from overrated to strong hand, partially because I'm an idiot but also because the footage that existed of him previously wasn't a great showcase for his obvious ability.

[Indikator]

I recently got my hands on a French 5 DVD set (catch francais) which has some old New Catch/EWF on Eurosport tv shows that look like 2nd gen bootlegs. The first DVD has late 1988ish shows with "Mr. Wonderful" Dave Taylor vs Otto Wanz, Jacky Richard as the camp Marquis Richard de Fumolo de la Rossignolette , a great Dave Morgan vs Dave Taylor match, Finley and Dick Murdoch. Who is btw not that Dick Murdoch. But as he is French he clearly is the superior Dick Murdoch

Furthermore it has lots of Flesh Gordon, topless dancers for a babyface and on DVD 2 there is a decent Eddie Steinblock vs Indio Guajaro match. Yes, that match was decent, I shit you not. I would have bet everything I would ever own against this match being anything but mindblowingly bad. The power of Flesh Gordon I guess.

[ohtani's jacket]

Ranking the European workers v. 2 (Oct 2013)

 

All-Time Greats

 

Jim Breaks, Mick McManus, Alan Sarjeant, Jon Cortez, Marty Jones, Steve Grey

 

Great Workers

 

Terry Rudge, Tibor Szacaks, Mike Marino, Ken Joyce

 

Excellent Workers

 

Bobby Barnes, Robby Baron, Franz van Buyten, Clive Myers, Steve Veidor, Sid Cooper, Alan Kilby, Pat Roach, Pete Roberts, Caswell Martin

 

Strong Hands

 

Johnny Czeslaw, John Elijah, Tiger Dalibar Singh, Keith Haward, Tom Tyrone, Brian Maxine, Steve Logan (Snr), Les Kellett, Romany Riley, Alan Wood, Axl Dieter, Bobby Ryan, Dave Finlay

 

Decent Hands

 

Tony St. Clair, Jim Moser, Chic Cullen, Peter La Paque, Colin Joynson, Ray Robinson, Johnny Kincaid, Vic Faulkner, Tony Costas, Bert Royal, Roy St. Clair, John Kowalski, Johnny South, Ringo Rigby, Rocky Moran, Jeff Kaye, Johnny Kidd, Young David, Otto Wanz, John Quinn, Tony Walsh, Rene Lasartesse, Dynamite Kid, Steve Regal, Clay Thomson, Johnny Kwango, Black Jack Mulligan, Ray Steele, Bob Kirkwood, Prince Kumali, Dave Bond

 

Average

 

Kung Fu, Alan Dennison, Tony Charles, Mick McMichael, Count Baretlli, Lee Bronson, Tarzan Johnny Wilson, Honey Boy Zimba, Kendo Nagasaki, Skull Murphy, Johnny England, Mike Jordan, Tally Ho Kaye, Kid Chocolate, Lenny Hurst, Dave Taylor, Ivan Penzekoff, Billy Torontos

 

Overrated

 

Johnny Saint, Marc Rocco, Steve Wright, Zolton Boscik, Eddie Capelli, Wayne Bridges

 

Annoying as Fuck

 

John Naylor, Mal Sanders, Danny Collins, Chris Adams

[ohtani's jacket]

Stock picks

 

Stock going up -- Ken Joyce, Pete Roberts, Caswell Martin, Bert Royal, Roy St. Clair, Tom Tyrone, Ray Steele, Bob Kirkwood

 

Ken Joyce is the British maestro. He's like Blue Panther, Black Terry and Negro Navarro rolled into one. Roberts had no personality but too many good matches to ignore. Martin had great technique but no standout match. Royal I originally pinned as the Dory Funk to his brother's Terry, but on further watch he was a solid watch. St. Clair was another with no personality but rock solid. Tyrone got big points for his rivalry with Roach, and Steele had too many good matches against the Roach/Rudge/Singh workrate crew to ignore. Kirkwood wasn't a flashy worker, but he could do just about every role that was asked of him from putting other a green kid like Carlo to playing straight man and even comedian. Better than average.

 

Stock going down -- Chic Cullen, Clay Thomson, Ivan Penzekoff, Johnny Kwango

 

Haven't found any more good Cullen matches despite combing for them. Thomson was disappointing in his comeback, and Penzekoff had issues with his gimmick and basically his role on the cards. Kwango mailed in a lot of his performances before hanging it up.

 

New to the list -- Dave Bond, Black Jack Mulligan, Prince Kumali, Tony Costas, Billy Torontos

 

Bond was an oversight the first time. Never a great worker, but I love his late 70s heel run especially his feud against Tony St. Clair. Black Jack Mulligan was a solid pro. Kumali was a thick set heavyweight with some hard hitting strikes. Costas was a fun worker who I wish we had more of, and Torontos' comedy is amusing in small doses.

[jm29195]

Excuse me if I have completely missed him after reading both lists twice, but where does Fit Finlay place on your list?

[ohtani's jacket]

That's a very good question.

 

Judging him only on his European work, he was an excellent worker when he first debut as Dave Finlay. As he began morphing into "Fit Finlay" he was still capable of excellent performances, but after a while he became more interested in drawing heat and I'm not a fan of the Princess Paula years. Once they split up, I didn't really dig his wandering journeyman act either until he washed up in WCW. So overall, I'd call him a strong hand.

[pantherwagner]

OJ, where do you rank Mile Zrno?

 

I hope that someday you can work with somebody in getting European yearbook compilations put together.

[ohtani's jacket]

I've only seen a handful of his matches. Not even to judge really.

 

I'd like to put out some 70s sets.

[ohtani's jacket]

I realised that I haven't updated this in a year, so here we go...

 

Ranking the European workers v. 3 (Oct 2014)

 

All-Time Greats

Jim Breaks, Mick McManus, Alan Sarjeant, Jon Cortez, Marty Jones, Steve Grey

Great Workers

Terry Rudge, Tibor Szacaks, Mike Marino, Ken Joyce

Excellent Workers

Bobby Barnes, Robby Baron, Franz van Buyten, Clive Myers, Steve Veidor, Sid Cooper, Alan Kilby, Pat Roach, Pete Roberts, Caswell Martin

Strong Hands

Johnny Czeslaw, John Elijah, Tiger Dalibar Singh, Keith Haward, Tom Tyrone, Brian Maxine, Steve Logan (Snr), Les Kellett, Romany Riley, Alan Wood, Axl Dieter, Bobby Ryan, Dave Finlay, Ray Steele, Marc Rocco, Zolton Boscik

Decent Hands

Tony St. Clair, Jim Moser, Chic Cullen, Peter La Paque, Colin Joynson, Ray Robinson, Johnny Kincaid, Vic Faulkner, Tony Costas, Bert Royal, Roy St. Clair, John Kowalski, Johnny South, Ringo Rigby, Rocky Moran, Jeff Kaye, Johnny Kidd, Young David, Otto Wanz, John Quinn, Tony Walsh, Rene Lasartesse, Dynamite Kid, Steve Regal, Clay Thomson, Johnny Kwango, Bob Kirkwood, Prince Kumali, Dave Bond, Tarzan Johnny Wilson, Lenny Hurst, René Ben Chemoul, Gilbert Cesca, Bob Plantin, Mal Sanders, Tally Ho Kaye, Indio Guajaro, Klaus Wallas, Jackie Turpin, Klaus Kauroff, Count Vladimir, Pat Patton, Little Prince

Average

Kung Fu, Alan Dennison, Tony Charles, Mick McMichael, Count Baretlli, Lee Bronson, Honey Boy Zimba, Kendo Nagasaki, Skull Murphy, Johnny England, Mike Jordan, Kid Chocolate, Dave Taylor, Ivan Penzekoff, Billy Torontos, Colonel Brody, Bernie Wright, Peter Wilson, King Ben, Bruno Elrington, Black Jack Mulligan

Overrated

Johnny Saint, Steve Wright, Eddie Capelli, Wayne Bridges, John Naylor, Danny Collins, Chris Adams

[ohtani's jacket]

Note: I decided to do away with the Annoying as Fuck category as I found it obnoxious. There were minor changes here and there, but Ray Steele, Marc Rocco, Zolton Boscik and Mal Sanders were the big movers.

[Childs]

Would Myers rank any higher for you if the Iron Fist gimmick had never happened? Not that you don't rank him highly as is.

[ohtani's jacket]

Maybe. I do find his non-Steve Grey 70s work more interesting than the majority of his Iron Fist run. But it's more the case that as 'Iron Fist' he fails to deliver even against top talent. If he'd had better matches outside of the 80s Grey bouts and the Haward draw, I would rate him a tier above.

[JerryvonKramer]

Interested to see you have Saint in the overrated category. I thought he was really good in the two Breaks matches. Can you say any more on this?

[shoe]

I like Saint, but for me his matches can seem real samey. His matches if you say watch 10 in a row are all worked the same. People talk about Flair being very formula, Saint is way more formula. With that said, his formula is fun to watch. Match one or two it's like that's a coll escape, match 7 or 8 it's like oh he's doing the bouncing ball escape or the handshake spot.

[Badlittlekitten]

I like Saint a fair bit. I know OJ thinks he's bland but I think he has that odd, goofball, Backlund like charisma which is a plus in my books. I even enjoyed him as an old man popping up in random Indies the last 20 years. Perhaps not among the tip top WOS workers but then the likes of Grey, Breaks and Sarjeant are world fucking class. May get a nod in my GWE list.