If Not Race Then Who?

[soup23]

Does anyone have any more attendance figures from NWA 1983. I scanned historyofwwe.com and was alarmed at how many times youngblood/Steamboat vs. Briscos were on top previous to Starrcade including 5 times in Greensboro.

[jdw]

Mid Atlantic Gateway has clips. Don't know if they ever got to 1983 in all the key towns, nor if they listed attendance in clips into the 80s.

[JerryvonKramer]

You thought it was a good idea if Race wasn't there.

 

The claim that you consistently said it would have been terrible is a canard. A cover up. A crock. Deceit. Dishonesty. A dodge. Double-talk. A fable. A fabrication. A falsehood. A fib. Pure fiction. A flip-flop. A fraud. Inaccurate. You're giving us the run around. It's jive. A misstatement. A total myth. Subterfuge. A tall tale. An untruth. A whopper. Telling a yarn.

 

You're being a weasel.

 

Yep... it's a lie.

 

Did I miss any?

A little carried away tonight aren't we? Can you actually read though?

 

"I don't think Ivan is a great choice"

 

"that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade"

 

"I'm not saying it's a great scenario"

 

Then later after several pages where we're not really talking about Ivan: "We've established that the Ivan option isn't a good one. Let's not beat a dead horse."

 

You're flat out calling me some sort of charlatan now? Is this really about how many wrestling books I've read? Why don't you just take a picture of yourself beating your chest like Dino Bravo and be done with it?

 

I take Bix's point. I've read quite a few of the books he lists, but clearly I could read some more and don't know early 80s stuff inside out. But I'm a liar now too? Come on dude. I do a mild bit of fantasy booking -- and granted, it was based on a mistake: the idea that Ivan was based in the NWA in 83 (I didn't know he was in WWF in that timeframe) -- and the end result is that you're calling me a liar? Seriously WTF? Are you drunk this evening jdw?

[BrickHithouse]

My pick is Bulldog Bob Brown. All other options are shit.

 

 

[KrisZ]

OH SHIT you have started something now.........We now need many posters

[jdw]

Awesome!

 

Actually, look further down the poster. Angelo Mosca was available and in the territory. NWA Champ Mosca vs Flair would have rocked!

[BrickHithouse]

pondering who might have fit into Andre's spot at Mania III if his health went to shit

Again, I'd have to go with Bulldog Bob Brown

 

[jdw]

You thought it was a good idea if Race wasn't there.

 

The claim that you consistently said it would have been terrible is a canard. A cover up. A crock. Deceit. Dishonesty. A dodge. Double-talk. A fable. A fabrication. A falsehood. A fib. Pure fiction. A flip-flop. A fraud. Inaccurate. You're giving us the run around. It's jive. A misstatement. A total myth. Subterfuge. A tall tale. An untruth. A whopper. Telling a yarn.

 

You're being a weasel.

 

Yep... it's a lie.

 

Did I miss any?

A little carried away tonight aren't we? Can you actually read though?

 

"I don't think Ivan is a great choice"

That's not saying it's a terrible choice, Jerry. You were comparing it favorably to Hansen, DiBiase and Brisco.

 

"that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade"

 

"I'm not saying it's a great scenario"

And you're not saying it's a terrible scenario. You're offering it up as the #2 choice behind Race vs Flair.

 

 

Then later after several pages where we're not really talking about Ivan: "We've established that the Ivan option isn't a good one. Let's not beat a dead horse."

That's not the same thing as "I've consistently said it would have been terrible." You actually thought it was a good idea from the start, then changed your tune when people hammered you.

 

 

You're flat out calling me some sort of charlatan now?

Yes.

 

 

Is this really about how many wrestling books I've read?

Where did I talk about how many wrestling books you've read?

 

 

Why don't you just take a picture of yourself beating your chest like Dino Bravo and be done with it?

I don't like Dino Bravo, so I'm not likely to do anything Dino Bravoish.

 

 

Are you drunk this evening jdw?

I've been sober for 25 years.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

Between the BrickHithouse Photoshops and the continuation of the Jerry/jdw feud, this thread is loaded. It's the Wrestlemania X-7 of threads.

[JerryvonKramer]

You were comparing it favorably to Hansen, DiBiase and Brisco.

Not at all. I listed them as being unavailable or difficult to obtain in this scenario. I never presented Ivan as anything more than a desperate and last-ditch scramble. I even said Valentine was more likely.

 

Whatever though, believe what you want to believe. I don't take kindly to being called a liar but things have moved on.

 

I want to see more posters.

[BrickHithouse]

I want to see more posters.

I'm supposed to be airbrushing the spider veins and stretch marks out of Jennifer Hudson's legs right now for a certain weight-loss company that she represents.

 

I'd rather be airbrushing singlets onto Bulldog Bob Brown.

[jdw]

You were comparing it favorably to Hansen, DiBiase and Brisco.

Not at all. I listed them as being unavailable or difficult to obtain in this scenario.

 

Wait... what the fuck? Brisco was in JCP at the time and on fucking

STARCADE '83!

 

I don't take kindly to being called a liar but things have moved on.

Well, given the Brisco-JCP-Starcade thing, would you prefer that I call you "Woefully Ignorant" rather than a liar?

 

And before you comeback to say that the thread debased people of the idea of Brisco at the time you posted that, that would be a lie as well:

 

* Al suggested Brisco in Post 5

* your Ivan > Brisco comment was in Post 10

* Loss thought Brisco was a good choice in Post 12

* Kriz pointed out Brisco was too "JCP" in Post 16, but didn't totally debase it

* Jack didn't come up again until Post 34, where I took a few pokes at the concept

 

So when you posted about Brisco, he was still a viable candidate and one suggested by Al. You thought he was difficult to obtain or unavailable while working in JCP. Which was wrong.

[Death From Above]

Paris: "I give up."

Chakotay: "After only two minutes? Tuvok, how do you do it?"

Tuvok: "I wait until his own illogic overwhelms him."

[JerryvonKramer]

Just been having a look through 1983 results to see if anyone else might have been viable. Who was headlining shows etc.

 

Couldn't help but notice that Ivan seems to have spent the first half of 83 working for GCW. Somewhat ironically given what happened earlier in this thread, look who he was tagging with:

 

GCW @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - April 17, 1983

Brian Blair defeated Pat Rose

Brett Wayne defeated Chick Donovan

Paul Ellering defeated Tito Santana

Ron Garvin defeated Killer Brooks

Arn Anderson & Matt Borne defeated Ray Candy & Joe Lightfoot

Tony Atlas defeated Buzz Sawyer via disqualification

National Heavyweight Champion Larry Zbyszko defeated Tommy Rich

Dusty Rhodes & Dick Murdoch defeated Ivan Koloff & the Iron Sheik (w/ Homer O'Dell) in a bullrope & chain match; Murdoch was handcuffed to Koloff and Rhodes tied to the Iron Sheik for the contest

 

He was working for Vince at the same time:

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 25, 1983

Included Gorilla Monsoon & Pat Patterson on commentary:

Eddie Gilbert defeated Jose Estrada at 5:58

Salvatore Bellomo defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna at 9:43

Mr. Fuji pinned SD Jones at 11:34 with a belly to belly suplex as Jones ran off the ropes

Iron Mike Sharpe defeated Johnny Rodz at 9:31

Pedro Morales defeated Swede Hanson at 4:39

Prime Time Wrestling - 1/20/86: Ray Stevens pinned Tony Garea at 10:17 when the momentum of a crossbody by Garea put Stevens on top; after the bout, Garea cleared Stevens from the ring

Jimmy Snuka defeated Superstar Billy Graham at 3:28 (Graham's last match at MSG for 4 years)

Rocky Johnson defeated WWF IC Champion Don Muraco via count-out at 14:20

WWF Tag Team Champions Afa & Samula (sub. for Sika) defeated Chief Jay & Jules Strongbow at 11:55

Andre the Giant defeated Big John Studd via count-out at 8:22 when Studd left ringside after narrowly avoiding a bodyslam from Andre (WWE Hall of Fame 2004)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) defeated Ivan Koloff via submission at 28:36 with the Crossface Chickenwing

 

Seems to have been in JCP until late 82 and he was back in JCP by January 1984.

 

What's the deal with those Omni shows in 83? They seem to have guys from every other territory working there that year. WWF guys, AWA guys, Mid-South guys. Were Georgia Omni shows like a "free-for-all"? Were they co-promoted? Or was it just that GCW had all these guys on their roster simultaneously with other companies in working agreements? Would be grateful for any elucidation on this.

 

Couldn't help notice this either:

 

GCW @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - November 6, 1983 (4,000)

Pat Rose vs. Les Thornton

Brad Armstrong vs. Joe Lightfoot

Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated National TV Champion Ron Garvin to win the title

Jimmy Valiant defeated the Great Kabuki

Buzz Sawyer fought Abdullah the Butcher to a no contest

National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) fought Dusty Rhodes & Brett Sawyer to a no contest

Tommy Rich defeated Ted Dibiase (sub. for NWA World Champion Harley Race) via disqualification

 

Don't know if there's anything to be read into it and it is probably entirely circumstantial, but Ted was subbing for Race there. Could this mean they might have turned to him if Race had been out for some reason?

[JerryvonKramer]

So when you posted about Brisco, he was still a viable candidate and one suggested by Al. You thought he was difficult to obtain or unavailable while working in JCP. Which was wrong.

Not unavailable so much as unwilling. This was established in the thread too. That he didn't want to travel.

[JerryvonKramer]

Look what happens if you actually go back and read what I said rather than creating straw-man arguments:

 

- Jack Brisco had complications, jdw has outlined them

"Woefully ignorant"

 

I love it. Innocent bystanders swayed by the sheer force of the jdw hurricane PROVING time and time again how "illogical" I've been.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Paris: "I give up."

Chakotay: "After only two minutes? Tuvok, how do you do it?"

Tuvok: "I wait until his own illogic overwhelms him."

 

Awesome.

 

Hey, here's a little coincidental tidbit that may factor into whatever this thread is. I was just rereading Meltzer's Tributes 2 book during dinner. While reading Hawk's obit again I noticed this. Dave was talking about how hot the AWA was in 82. So hot that Bockwinkel turned down a chance to be the NWA champion, because he felt the money was better in Minneapolis.

[Loss]

This is all making my head hurt. Let us return to the fundamental question: If not Race, then who?

 

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what it is about this thread title that is SO hilarious to me, but I'm almost in tears as I type this.

[jdw]

Look what happens if you actually go back and read what I said rather than creating straw-man arguments:

 

- Jack Brisco had complications, jdw has outlined them

 

Jerry: why do you keep misrepresenting your original Ivan Theory with stuff that came later?

 

You originally offered Ivan as the best choice if Race wasn't available:

 

Post 10:

 

In that case, for the time being, I will offer the name Ivan Koloff, the man who defeated Bruno. He was around and still positioned quite highly on the Crockett roster.

 

Fewer complications than securing Hansen, DiBiase or Jack Brisco at that point. Sets things up for Nikita's debut too.

 

Where I talked about Brisco was 7 hours later:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5546406

 

Which you later lifted to support your New Ivan Theory:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5546418

 

 

"Woefully ignorant"

Let's add:

 

"Intentionally Misrepresenting What's Been Said In The Thread"

 

 

I love it. Innocent bystanders swayed by the sheer force of the jdw hurricane PROVING time and time again how "illogical" I've been.

I thought it was a nice way for him to say Lying and Ignorant, etc.

 

* * * * *

 

While we're at it because this was turning over in my head as another complete cockup on your part, let's go back to this:

 

You were comparing it favorably to Hansen, DiBiase and Brisco.

Not at all. I listed them as being unavailable or difficult to obtain in this scenario.

Emphasis added.

 

Ted was "available" to be NWA Champ at that time, and very easy to obtain. If asked, he would have done it. There's little doubt that Watts would have been happy as well.

 

Hansen was available. If asked, he almost certainly would have done it. He wasn't working every All Japan series, and for the NWA Title, Baba would have been more than willing to cut back his schedule, and even booked the Tag League so that Hansen's matches could be back loaded (it started on 11/25/1983 and ran through 12/12/1983). For fuck's sake... Baba bought Hansen the AWA Title when the AWA was dying. He would have gotten a massive boner of Hansen had been offered the NWA Title and given a 160+ day run with it, including defenses in Japan.

 

So...

 

Bricso was in the territory.

 

Ted, and Ted's promoter, would have taken it in a second.

 

Baba's promoter would have taken it in a second, and if Stan was hesitant would have talked him into it.

 

The only person who wasn't available in your original post?

 

Bob Backlund vs Ivan Koloff, MSG, 1983

 

Yeah...

 

"Woefully Ignorant"

[JerryvonKramer]

I did say that I thought Ivan was in Crockett and have admitted this was a mistake. Woe betide the day that you'd ever admit that the "complications" I had in mind for Brisco were the same ones you mentioned yourself later. But whatever man. The Red Sea will freeze before that happens.

 

If we can turn the topic around back to wrestling rather than "is Jerry an idiot" I did make a post here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5546659

 

In that post I asked about how Ivan and others were working for GCW and WWF at the same time. He worked for GCW days before taking that chickenwing at MSG. That's a nice opportunity to educate me with your undoubted knowledge.

[jdw]

Couldn't help notice this either:

 

GCW @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - November 6, 1983 (4,000)

Pat Rose vs. Les Thornton

Brad Armstrong vs. Joe Lightfoot

Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated National TV Champion Ron Garvin to win the title

Jimmy Valiant defeated the Great Kabuki

Buzz Sawyer fought Abdullah the Butcher to a no contest

National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) fought Dusty Rhodes & Brett Sawyer to a no contest

Tommy Rich defeated Ted Dibiase (sub. for NWA World Champion Harley Race) via disqualification

 

Don't know if there's anything to be read into it and it is probably entirely circumstantial, but Ted was subbing for Race there. Could this mean they might have turned to him if Race had been out for some reason?

Harley claims he wasn't booked, and it was Ole lying.

 

As far as Ted, he started in GCW around that point, and worked there a lot through October 1984. Seems like it was Ole's way of introducing Ted back to GCW.

[jdw]

If we can turn the topic around back to wrestling rather than "is Jerry an idiot" I did make a post here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5546659

 

In that post I asked about how Ivan and others were working for GCW and WWF at the same time. He worked for GCW days before taking that chickenwing at MSG. That's a nice opportunity to educate me with your undoubted knowledge.

Because guys often went in to work TV tapings in one promotion while wrapping up their bookings in another territory.

 

Ivan worked TV tappings in the WWF in January, February and March to build him up. He almost certainly gave his notice to GCW, and was booked a schedule that allowed it. The Omni in April was his blow off. He worked the April 19 & 20th WWF tapings, then appears to have gone around the horn with Backlund before sliding down the card.

 

You see this with a number of people. Patera was working tapings in later 1979 before coming fully back to the WWF in 1980.

[JerryvonKramer]

How about the MSW guys working on those shows? Wrestling II, Bob Roop, Duggan, JYD?

 

Also, Tito Santana, a guy I thought was WWF through and through in that timeframe is on a lot of those cards. Did he leave WWF for a spell in 83 and then go back?

 

Some of those Omni cards look amazing.

[jdw]

On Tito:

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/80.htm

 

Ctrl+F = Tito + select up (for last entry)

 

WWF @ Bristol, CT - April 16, 1980

WWF Tag Team Champions the Wild Samoans defeated Ivan Putski & Tito Santana via disqualification

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/81.htm

 

No Tito

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/82.htm

 

No Tito

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/83.htm

 

WWF @ Allentown, PA - Agricultural Hall - May 10, 1983

Championship Wrestling taping:

Tito Santana defeated Jose Estrada via submission with the figure-four at 3:44 (Santana's return after a 3-year absence)

 

Worked just tapings until early July.

 

You can sift through 1983 to get a clearer sense of how regular he was for the balance of the year.

 

The Omni was a big arena. At times Georgia would bring guys in from out of town for quickies, similar to Mid South with the Super Domes.

[JerryvonKramer]

Of course he was with AWA for most of that time. I did see him and Martel vs. The Highflyers on the AWA set.

 

Found this interview: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2008/08/27/6592661.html

 

Santana's time in the AWA, run by Verne Gagne , may have been valuable for his career as a whole, but his experience was greatly soured when, after a solid two years, he was let go at a vulnerable time in his personal life. Thankfully for him, he was able to find work quickly, back in the rechristened World Wrestling Federation, after another disastrous stint in Georgia with Ole Anderson.

 

"I ended up being released from the AWA at a time when my wife was six or seven months pregnant, and that's something that I never forgave Verne for. It made things very difficult for me and my family. So because of that, we had to move for me to find work, which Jim Barnett offered me back in Georgia. But Ole Anderson was still booking, and made it clear he didn't want me there. Luckily, Vince McMahon was willing to use me again in the WWF."

Looks like an unhappy time for him.

 

I'll let things get back on topic.