07/17 - Thoughts on the following wrestlers

[Loss]

We haven't done one in a while, so let's do this.

 

Booker T

Tito Santana

Jun Akiyama

Necro Butcher

Hulk Hogan

Mike Awesome

Kyoko Inoue

Fuerza Guerrera

The Rock

Edge

[Tim Cooke]

Booker T - I liked his WCW work and his early WWF work. Haven't cared since he broke up with Dustin.

 

Tito Santana - don't like but haven't seen enough to really give a decent opinion.

 

Jun Akiyama - love his 1993-1997 work. Could care less afterwards.

 

Necro Butcher - his 6/11/05 match against Samoa Joe is a crazy brawl which sold me on Necro. His 6/25/04 KOTDM against Toby Klein is fun but the Joe match made me want to see the re-match instantly.

 

Hulk Hogan - the Backlund match from 4/12/80 in Philly is a favorite of mine but I could be the same without ever seeing a Hogan match again.

 

Mike Awesome - People always talk of the great Paul Heyman protecting people. I never see it except in Awesome's case. He made Awesome look 20x as good as he is and might have been the best working ECW Champion (well, he probably is after thinking about all list of champs)

 

Kyoko Inoue - she annoys me

 

Fuerza Guerrera - my FAVORITE luchador of all time right now as he bumps big, has a terrific schtick, and is the ultimate rudo.

 

The Rock - if only he had better punches...other than that, I have always liked the Rock.

 

Edge - Back in 2000 when he was fresh, I liked him, could care less now.

 

Tim

[Coffey]

I'm going to be honest, like was suggested in the feedback folder. I think ten at a time with this is way too much. I know I opened the thread anticipating a reply and then when I saw ten names instead of three-to-five, it sort of ran away my will.

 

Anyway, I'll still do a couple:

 

Booker T - It's interesting that you mention Booker after it's been a hot topic of conversation for me over the past couple of days. I believe that his best singles match to date is his burial loss to Triple H at Wrestlemania XIX. Not because it buried him, in fact, I think he should've went over. I just thought it was a really good match. I've never really been high on Booker. I don't think he's the best worker. I hated Harlem Heat. I wasn't impressed with the best of seven series with Benoit. He doesn't offend me when he's on TV (or at least he didn't before his wife showed up) and I wouldn't mind him winning gold. I've just never thought of him as anything special. I look at him the same way I look at people like Rick Martel and Paul Roma. I like them but they don't really do a lot.

 

Tito Santana ~ By the time I was able to start following Tito he was a glorified jobber. Not a lot can be said about him by me.

 

Hulk Hogan ~ Hogan was a big reason why I became a wrestling fan. I loved him in old WWF and I loved him in WCW when he was "Hollywood" and running the nWo. Hell, I even liked him when he came back to WWE for awhile because of the nostalgia. Now it's all wearing thin. It's old hat. I don't want to see him at Summerslam against Shawn Michaels because I don't care about either of them anymore. Hogan definitely had an impact and I respect that. Of course, you could argue about all the harm he did too. It's time for him to fade away. He's in the Hall of Fame, leave it at that.

 

Mike Awesome ~ He gave me some legitimate "holy shit" moments during his matches with Masato Tanaka. It was mainly because I didn't think things like that would happen in wrestling. A running powerbomb over the top rope through a table on the concrete floor? That's not wrestling, that's murder. It was some crazy shit. I think he's decent for his size but without weapons and tables he's painfully average. Everyone can do a frogsplash nowadays. WCW killed his career.

 

The Rock ~ I think he was the best thing to happen to wrestling since Hulk Hogan. Moreso than Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart putting on great wrestling matches. Moreso than Austin getting monsterous ratings. He made it fun to watch again. He was entertaining but in new ways. WWE needs him.

[goodhelmet]

Well, I am sure most people, myself included, have never even seen Necro Butcher wrestle. Then stars like Kyoko Inoue and Fuerza Guerrera have probably only been witnessed by a few also so no one is expecting you to post on them BUT for those who have seen them, it does give the other posters a chance to hear about someone they may have never been exposed to.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

 

Booker T - In GWF to early years in WCW, never thought much of him. He had intensity, but in the ring, he was athletic but not a great worker. From the mid 90s to about 2002 in WWF, he was a very good worker. Capable of putting on classic matches wiht the correct opposition. He's a better promo guy now, then I thought he could be.

 

Tito Santana - A all-time great worker. Not much in the way of charisma, or promo skills, but put on excellent matches with everyone. He's kind of a boring character, but hey, he was over enough for the era he was in.

 

 

Hulk Hogan - Probably the most charismatic and best self-promoters in wrestling history. Was one of the best promo guys of all-time, in terms of getting his character and the contest over. He really knows ring psychology and how to get the crowd involved in the match better than any wrestler I can think of, considering his inring limitations. His political history is what keep me from really liking him as a person, though. His run in WCW from 1996-1997 I enjoyed as much as his WWE work to be honest. His charcter came off more as an extention of his realife persona, IMO. And his promos were hilarious.

 

Mike Awesome - Good worker, I like his "Style" of work. Other than that, never really much interested me.

 

 

The Rock - Most entertaining wrestler of all-time, IMO. His promo skills are top-notch. His in ring work was excellent for a wrestler his size, and he allowed his athleticism carry his work. And never came off as a stiff. He did need another quality worker to get the best of out him, but he always came through in the big match, IMO.

 

 

Edge - Not a fan of his. His promos are all right, but Christian carried him when they were teamed together. His in working ability is good enough to were he can be carried to a quality or even classic match given the right circumstances. He isn't the most naturally gifted athlete either (Atleast it doesn't seem to me like he is, not sure about his background) but he's paid his dues over the years with all the TLC matches. Iwasn't sure about the WWE pushing him as the next big heel on their show, considering he hasn't won any marquee matches as a singles wrestler and still hasn't cut a money promo. I think this Matt Hardy feud could do wonders for his career. If he has one of those breakthrough classic matches/angles with Matt, I think he'll be well on his way to making himself a big star in the company. Cause the last few months he just seemed like an extra in the mainevent scene.

[Guest EastCoastJ]

Booker T: A wrestler who, much like Chris Jericho, has largely remained thought of as a good worker based almost solely on past reputation. A guy who's stock rose almost entirely due to Dustin Rhodes incredible performances on the mic and in the ring, and who has never quite panned out. Never a strong promo, never a guy you can count on to make others look better in the ring, and never someone who has displayed the attributes to be a serious draw in WWE, but consistently good though not great.

 

Tito Santana: Reminiscent of Ricky Steamboat in that he was a handsome, ethnic career babyface who never had a problem getting over and could really go off in the ring. I don't think history will remember him strongly, as he never made any waves out of the ring, and largely just smiled and wrestled, headlining B and C shows sometimes and getting lost in the shuffle the rest of the time.

 

Hulk Hogan: A grand delusionist who isn't fascinating to me because of the lies that he tells, but because of the fact that you get the sense that he actually believes them. The biggest manipulator that I have ever seen, who knows how to work a crowd and always ensure he is seen as the biggest babyface. A true legend in every since, and it never really mattered that he couldn't work, because the little things he could do to make a crowd care is something that the technical masters could never accomplish. The biggest star wrestling has produced since the cable era began who's big matches (Wrestlemania I, Andre, Savage, Warrior) seemed bigger than anything since.

 

Mike Awesome: I've seen his FMW stuff, I've seen his ECW stuff, and I've seen his WCW/WWE stuff, and I can safely say that I have never been impressed. He's most notable for getting over nearly killing Masato Tanaka over and over, something Sid or other big men could have done just as easily. Clumsy in the ring, almongst the worst promos in the business 95% of the time. Gets 50% of the credit for a series of matches that he deserves 10% of the credit for.

 

The Rock: The best performer in American wrestling history.

[Guest Some Guy]

Booker T - I loved Booker's 97-98 WCW work. He had some decent matches as WCW Champion and a few good months in WWE. I've always found him entertaining on the mic.

 

Tito Santana - He was pretty decent in the few matches I've seen from his prime but he was working with Savage or Valentine, who were very good workers in those. He was a good babyface.

 

Jun Akiyama - Never seen him.

 

Necro Butcher - Never seen him.

 

Hulk Hogan - Never seen him. Oh wait I guess I have. I liked Hogan as a kid, disliked the heel character in WCW and enjoyed the heel out of his WM match with Rock. Other than that I have no real use for him. Although his TV is perversly entertaining.

 

Mike Awesome - His bumpfests with Tanaka were fun. Other than that he sucks.

 

Kyoko Inoue - Never heard of her.

 

Fuerza Guerrera - Unless he was on RR 97 then I've never seen him. I assume he's Juvy's dad.

 

The Rock - Became a great worker in the year or two before he left. He was always great on the mic.

 

Edge - He had potential that he's let slip away. He's been given a ton of chances to get over and he's failed at virtually every turn. It took a real life situation to get him heel heat and even that was more directed at Lita.

[Guest cawthon777]

Booker T - Haven't really cared about him since Hunter killed his push at WrestleMania. Prior to that point, I think he could have survived, if only briefly, as a top guy. Sadly for him, that moment has passed.

 

Tito Santana - I think Tito is overlooked just because he wasn't on the winning side of things from 89 forward. Tito could always go and the fans took to him for 10 years straight.

 

Hulk Hogan - He must have done something right to sell out so many arenas. While his in-ring work varied in terms of quality, the fans didn't pay to see Hogan pull out a head scissors. They paid to see him Hulk up, drop the leg, and pose. And he was happy to oblige.

 

Mike Awesome - From what I've seen, I think he could go very well if used correctly. The ECW stuff I liked, I think that worked well for his style. His WCW run started well but went south quickly. The WWF run was nothing.

 

The Rock - Instant money. A better worker than Hogan and has probably surpassed Hogan in terms of connecting with the fans.

 

Edge - I still think his best chance of reaching that next level was late 2001 / early 2002. In the fall of 01, Edge was an established singles star, following the feud with Christian, and one of the most popular guys on the roster. Unfortunately for him, he was left to squander in the midcard for much of 02, save for the run against Angle. If it weren't for that injury in 03, I think he could have stepped up, but even then it might have been too late.

[Resident Evil]

I dont' feel like being negative at all today so everything here's going to be pretty positive

 

 

Booker T -- Can still go.

 

 

Tito Santana -- I've always been a fan of Santana. He brought energy to the ring and I just love the flying forearm. I loved cheering for him just because he lost so much of the time. One of the original wrestlers where I was frustrated with for having more talent than his push. See also Bret Hart although he escaped out of it.

 

 

Jun Akiyama -- Great wrestler. One of the top dogs in All Japan but a little bit below those aforementioned top dogs.

 

 

Necro Butcher -- Only seen him take some insane botched bumps against Samoa Joe. Has a look to him.

 

 

Hulk Hogan -- What more can be said?

 

Uh, I was always frustrated with Hogan growing up but in saying that I'm slightly a fan of his formula in the ring and will pop a Hulk Hogan tape in the VCR every once in awhile. I'll never forget being in the arena when he was putting his hand to his ear looking for crowd support. Everybody was up on their feet going insane except for me. Yup, I was the only one in the arena I could see sitting down. Tremendous charisma and the most well know name in wrestling history. Can work matches when he wants to.

 

 

 

Mike Awesome -- Like his power and his tope.

 

 

Kyoko Inoue -- Loaded with charisma and I'm a fan of that although that charisma is geared more to other people than to me. More energetic than most of the other wrestlers. "Panama" is a great song for her ring entrance.

 

 

Fuerza Guerrera -- Seen him wrestle but I'm not familiar enough with him to comment

 

 

The Rock -- Charisma is off the charts and he makes wrestling fun for the masses to watch. Hate that he mocks wrestling with the people's elbow for a cheap pop. Some of his moveset is annoying but besides that he's pretty good in the ring.

 

 

Edge -- Like the Rock he's a better wrestler as a face.

[sek69]

Booker T: He's been on autopilot since leaving WCW, despite showing signs of life recently with the program he had going w/ Angle. He was a great worker until it seemed he just came to terms with never getting a real chance in WWE and just started to coast.

 

Tito Santana: He's one of those guys who's prime came *just* before the big boom of the 80s. Most people remember him as the guy who was in a couple tag teams and jobbed at Wrestlemania every year. His matches with Greg Valentine over the IC title were usually excellent, and his feud with Savage helped launch the Macho Man into the upper tier of the WWF.

 

Jun Akiyama: I always saw him as like the Randy Savage of Japan in the sense that he was unfortunate enough to never get the full focus of the fans. He seemed to always be in someone else's shadow. Still, I always enjoy watching his work.

 

Hulk Hogan: It's funny, I never liked him growing up. Maybe I was just cynical at a young age, but I was never a Hulkamaniac. Hell, I even marked out when he got squished by the Earthquake. You can't deny that Hogan's probably the most brilliant politican ever in wrestling history, his heel turn and nWo run was a work of art until WCW let him get too much control. Ironically, I don't mind his nostalgia runs of the last couple years. As long as he's not being pushed as a title contender, I don't mind his occaisonal ego strokes.

 

Mike Awesome: Everyone gives Heyman credit for being so protective of Awesome, but he really didn't do anything that wasn't already done when Awesome was the Gladiator in Japan. I'm kinda surprised WWE didn't sign him, since he has the hoss credientals they like.

[Guest Some Guy]

Sek, WWE had Awesome and fired him because he sucks. He's about 6'4", which was huge in ECW but nothing special in WWE. In ECW he looked like a monster against all the midgets that populated that promotion. In WWE he looked like just another guy. He's essentially Tomko, except Awesome got a huge push despite not really being over in ECW.

[sek69]

Sek, WWE had Awesome and fired him because he sucks.  He's about 6'4", which was huge in ECW but nothing special in WWE.  In ECW he looked like a monster against all the midgets that populated that promotion.  In WWE he looked like just another guy.  He's essentially Tomko, except Awesome got a huge push despite not really being over in ECW.

My point was that Awesome (IMO at least) doesn't suck any more or less than the hosses they did keep, which is why it suprised me he didn't get signed since he was at least over at one point.

[Guest Some Guy]

Unless you are wondering why he wasn't signed after the ECW PPV, then you are ignoring the fact that he was signed (he was the first WCW guy to win a title during the Invasion, he powerbombed Rhyno on a ladder to win the HC title at MSG). He floundered for a while and after a few knee injuries he was cut.

 

He does suck more than the current crop of hosses if for no other reason than he's had a ton of knee injuries and is roughly 40. With the new hosses one could at least argue that they have an upside, with Awesome there is no upside.

[Loss]

Booker T - He doesn't totally get his due. He gets written off now as a bad worker, which I don't understand, because it's really the sort of thing that's out of his control. He was never a great worker, but he's always been able to be carried and hold up his end of big matches. There's no reason he couldn't have been a success *at least* on the level of a Sting, and he should have had about the same success as guys like Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho have had, *at least*. WWE has marketed him as a goofball where WCW, even when they didn't always push him to the top, consistently pushed him as a serious competitor who cared about winning and losing. In WCW, he was a respectable guy who wore suits and came across as classy and well-spoken. In WWE, he's been a bumbling, stereotypical black guy who loses all of his big matches and is too preoccupied with being funny. I think there's a great promo that's been buried in there for years that has yet to come out. The window is closed for him at this point, sadly, and now he's just another missed opportunity of the past few years, a list that is pretty long. Had he been Ahmed Johnson in 1995 instead of Ahmed Johnson, he would have been a huge superstar.

 

Tito Santana - Another guy that doesn't completely get his due. Ultra-likable babyface who peaked from about 1983-1987, just before a lot of this crowd started really following wrestling. Had a spirited feud with Greg Valentine over the IC title in 1984/1985 and had a fun run under Watts in Mid South before that. Probably the best working babyface the WWF had in the early days of Hulkamania, at least until they lured Steamboat in.

 

Jun Akiyama - Haven't seen him in years, but loved him in the glory days of All Japan.

 

Necro Butcher - Have yet to see any of his matches, but he's being talked about quite a bit lately. I'm anxious to see him.

 

Hulk Hogan - It's hard to sum up Hulk Hogan in a blurb-type post, but I'll try. In some ways, he's everything bad about wrestling and some of the things we see today that sacrifice the aesthetic value of wrestling but make the performers tons of money are directly related to him. He's helped make wrestling a great living for a lot of people, and he's probably the biggest star in the history of American wrestling. He's also one of the better performers I've ever seen and is amazing at working a crowd. Has always been able to work, but has picked and chosen how much to give and which crowds deserve his best for most of his career. He's not as horrible as he's made out to be -- you don't make it that far in wrestling without some semblance of talent. He's done just as much damage as he's done good, and he's brilliant at manipulating his surroundings to his advantage. Probably the biggest mixed bag on this list, and I don't feel like I really said what I wanted to say here properly.

 

Mike Awesome - Great heavyweight highspots - not much else.

 

Kyoko Inoue - Really awesome charisma and I love her ring outfits and her offense. I need to see more of her, though.

 

Fuerza Guerrera - Have yet to see one of his matches. I hopefully will soon.

 

The Rock - Everything good about wrestling -- great worker with a great attitude, and a superstar that transcends the business to boot.

 

Edge - He's been a "superstar in waiting" for close to a decade now, and if they don't finally pull the trigger in 2005 and if he doesn't get over as a bonafide top guy on the level of those around him, he's a lost cause and he'll never meet his potential.

[goodhelmet]

Booker T - I have always liked Booker T. Being the one sole fan who raised the roof after he beat the Undertaker on the 9/10/01 taping of RAW made me feel good. I think CJ may have had it right when he said he may be the best black wrestler to ever work in wrestling.

 

 

Tito Santana - I tell this story every time his name is mentioned, and every time it gets no-sold. Tito's Arriba! shirt is the only wrestling shirt I have ever owned.

 

Jun Akiyama - My least favorite of the All Japan big guns of the 90s. I like Taue about ten times more. His matches as singles were good but were never favorites.

 

Necro Butcher - Never seen him.

 

Hulk Hogan - I have seen hogan live twice in my life. Both times, he didn't wreslte. Once was in 1990 at a tv taping. The other was in 1997 at a Nitro.

 

Mike Awesome - I don't give a shit. I mark for Mike Awesome. Personally, I liek seeing him take other people and throw them around like rag dolls.

 

Kyoko Inoue - I love watching Kyoko wrestle. however, I like watching her sister more... not wrestling, just watching her.

 

Fuerza Guerrera - A surly old bastard. Watching the tags betwene the Mysterios and Guerreras the other day mad eme realize that this old fucker can fight.

 

The Rock - I remember the first time I thought the Rock was the shit... WM 14 and being interviewed by Gennifer Flowers. Been a fan ever since. However, I really wish he never have done the Sharpshooter.

 

Edge - Never a fan. Maybe the stuff he did with Foley and the gazoos. Can someone point the way to a GREAT Edge match that does not involve Eddie Guerrero? Anyone?

[Loss]

Booker T - I have always liked Booker T. Being the one sole fan who raised the roof after he beat the Undertaker on the 9/10/01 taping of RAW made me feel good. I think CJ may have had it right when he said he may be the best black wrestler to ever work in wrestling.

He's up there, but I might put Butch Reed ahead of him.

[Guest EastCoastJ]

I would put my man Larry Cameron above both Reed and Booker T. That guy was amazing when he was motivated and had a good opponent.

[goodhelmet]

Well, my exposuure to Butch Reed is limited to a few clips from Mid-South, the squash matches from early WWF tv, some non-descript WWF PPV matches and a few tag matches with Doom.

[Coffey]

What about Bad News Brown? I always liked him. Hell, Homicide in the indies seems better than all of them to me.

[Resident Evil]

[

Kyoko Inoue - I love watching Kyoko wrestle. however, I like watching her sister more... not wrestling, just watching her.

 

For the record, Kyoko and Takako aren't sisters. They just have the same last name.

[goodhelmet]

NO shit? I had no idea. Either way, give me some more Takako!

[Ray]

Booker T

 

I agree with Loss' comments on how he's been booked so poorly. I'm not his biggest fan, but he's a solid wrestler who knows his way around the ring. I saw him pull a watchable five minute match out of Heidenreich of all people.

 

Tito Santana

 

I haven't really seen enough to make a judgement.

 

Jun Akiyama

 

Like everyone I loved him in mid-90's AJPW. Awesome at playing his role in all those tags with Misawa. He can still have a great match when he wants.

 

Necro Butcher

 

Fun gargage wrestler. It's not my style, but I enjoyed his matches with Mr Insanity and Samoa Joe.

 

Hulk Hogan

 

Honestly, one of the most underrated wrestlers ever. He was never great or even close to it, but the amount of sheer hatred his ringwork gets is absurd. He knew what he was doing in that ring and he'll probably never get any credit for it. He could tell basic (but still engaging) stories, he was great with timing (especially on comebacks), and he's one of the best ever at working a crowd.

 

And one more thing that just popped into my head - people bash Hogan for being "too cartoony." Why is that such a bad thing? I'm a film fan. The other day I watched Ingmar Bergman's "The Seventh Seal." Then I watched "Harold & Kumar Go To White Castle." And I enjoyed both. Applying the same logic to wrestling - is it not possible to enjoy both serious, intelligent wrestling (such as Misawa vs Kawada) and cartoony fun wrestling (such as Hogan vs Warrior) ? Variety is a good thing.

 

Mike Awesome

 

Already been said - great for heavyweight spotfests.

 

Kyoko Inoue

Fuerza Guerrera

 

Haven't seen enough of either to make a judgement.

 

The Rock

 

Same thing I said about Hogan, only moreso. I think Rob Edwards said it - he's the ultimate version of Hogan. Rock knows far more about working matches than people ever give him credit for. The guy also brings an unparalleled level of energy and excitement to his matches. Just a shame he's so sloppy with his moves.

 

Edge

 

I like him. Basically the modern definition of a carriable wrestler. Put him with someone below h9im and you'll get nothing. Put him with Benoit/Eddie/Mysterio/Angle/Michaels and it's easy to get a very good match out of it.

[Guest ohtani's jacket]

Hi, hope you don't mind me posting.

 

Booker T

We used to get pretty bad coverage of WCW. At first it was just Worldwide and the Pro & then a one hour cut of Nitro, but they always showed WCW PPVs on free-to-air TV, and I have good memories of Booker T vs. Benoit, especially the GAB decider. I haven't watched the matches since they happened, and I have no real desire to track them down -- I'd rather live with the memory of watching late night WCW, hoping they'd show something good. IIRC, Finlay got involved in the Booker T/Benoit feud, and that's where my memories of Booker T stop, because I stopped watching WCW regularly and wasn't watching WWF when the invasion happened. I remember him being pretty game in his first singles push, with good athleticism.

 

Tito Santana

I never liked Tito. I watched a bit of early WWF recently. Adonis, Murdoch and Valentine were cool, but Tito was bland as hell.

 

Jun Akiyama

I never liked Jun, either. The Misawa/Akiyama team did nothing for me. He was a decent worker and played his role well, but it wasn't a role I connected with.

 

Hulk Hogan

Hogan's good for a laugh. I loved the way he'd always turn on his partner, then act all incredulous, as though he'd been betrayed. I loved Bad News' mini-push against Hogan, during the "You takin' favours from Elizabeth?" angle.

 

Kyoko Inoue

I love Kyoko. She's one of my all time favourites. Just an awesome personality. I admire the way she switches between comedy and drama. She's a brilliant wrestler & a joy to watch. I've seen a number of disappointing performances from her recently, but that's true of every Joshi wrestler. Her charisma was annoying early on, (especially in JGP '91), but once she grew into her role, it came more naturally. Great seller, too. Not as good as Mimi or Ozaki, but could create a decent story/narrative out of her selling/acting.

 

Fuerza Guerrera

Fuerza was my favourite rudo until I saw MS-1, who is the master rudo. Fuerza is great, though. Cracks me up time and time again. He's great in trios because of his spots, but to see what he's truly capable of check out his amazing carry of Octagon over three falls. It's a rudo tour de force. He even gets into a spat with an old woman at ringside.

 

The Rock

I liked the Rock when he first turned heel, promo-wise. I never understood what people saw in him as a worker, though. I hate his selling and moveset.

 

Edge

He's OK. He seems to have improved since I watched the WWF. I'm not sure that he can pull off a WWF gimmick, though. Seems to try hard.

[Loss]

Hey, welcome aboard!

[Guest Some Guy]

Tito Santana - I tell this story every time his name is mentioned, and every time it gets no-sold. Tito's Arriba! shirt is the only wrestling shirt I have ever owned.

::Sells the post::

 

I remember the shirt. It was white with a red collar and red cuff. It said "Arriba" with a Sombrero over the "A." The old shirts were great because they were so simple.