Top Heels In The States From 76-81

[Al]

Sergeant Slaughter. A bit late in the time period. He was working under the mask in the late 1970s, Dylan could tell us if he was any good. But by 1981 he's feuding with Bob Backlund and Pat Patterson headlining MSG.

[KrisZ]

Were Ladd vs Dusty matches awesome?

Matchwise was limited due to Ladd being limited in what he could do as a worker but they traded great promos and the deal where Ladd turned on Dusty in Florida was fantastic.

[KrisZ]

Ivan is definitely a solid choice. I don't know how well he drew but he was fucking awesome going back to '71, thru 1985 (at minimum), and all points in between, judging from what I've seen.

Ivan's best time during this period was the stints for Vince where he was treated as a top level singles heel because everywhere else during this time which was basically CWF & GCW he was either a tag guy or in another guy's shadow.

[KrisZ]

Greg "The Hammer" Valentine

 

- Placement on cards. Was the wrestler in question getting consistent main event or meaningful matches. Were they involved in feuds and storylines that seemed to have a real impact on the business during the period?

Greg was a constant main eventer for JCP & WWWF during this period and had legendary feuds with Wahoo & Strongbow breaking their legs then a feud with Flair after he returned from WWWF in 1980 which did good business.

 

- "Anchoring." Were promotions and territories built around them and/or were they in the lead heel spot in a promotion.

Greg was never an anchor and yeah he got shots at Backlund but wasn't what you would call a lead heel as WWWF really didn't have such a thing at this time. In JCP he had his best shot as a lead heel as US champ against Flair but Snuka was almost like an equal to him then Piper came in and took his spot.

 

- In Demand. Were promoters all over the country trying to get dates for them? If so were these big time spots, small time spots, or a combination of both.

Valentine did a couple of shots for GCW but that was about it. He very rarely traveled outside his home territory at the time.

 

- Opponents. Were they working big name opposition consistently? Were they getting title shots when and if they were brought into territories.

Oh definitely he worked all the top babyfaces of his era and held US, Mid-Atlantic, & NWA World Tag Titles.

 

- Titles. What titles did they hold if any and would they be considered important/relevant reigns?

See above....he was probably the greatest US Champ of his era.

 

- Drawing Power. Did the person in question pop attendance figures? If not were they working on top during hot periods that they were able to help sustain?

Hammer was always on the top of the cards and was solid in his role as a draw. He was a top heel for JCP in one of their best business runs of the late 70's plus drew very well against Backlund in both runs.

[Matt D]

Were Ladd vs Dusty matches awesome?

Matchwise was limited due to Ladd being limited in what he could do as a worker but they traded great promos and the deal where Ladd turned on Dusty in Florida was fantastic.

 

You think Ladd was limited? Really? I've see stuff with him from the early 80s where I wouldn't call him limited at all. The guy was really good in making the most out of what he had in the ring, much better at it than, let's say Dusty from the same era.

[KrisZ]

When I say he was limited I meant mobility wise. Psychologically he was very good and he could do some spots but later in his career he wasn't as mobile as he was when he was younger. It was impressive for him to come off the top rope though for sure.

[jdw]

I still like Valentine as a top pick.

Here's a question: does anyone think Valentine was a bigger heel than Harley Race in this period? Is there really an argument to support that?

It's tricky with Race, and Bock, because how much of it is the Title. No real easy answer on how to split wrestler-from-title in that case.

 

By extension if one ignored the Belt factor, "on paper" it would be Race. His NWA Champ dynasty (02/06/77 - 06/21/81) covered 72.8% of the period, and he remained a leading opponent for the title the balance of 1981, where in a fair number of them he would be the heel. NWA Champ covered the largest chunk of the country, was the most regular heel champ touring Japan.

 

Bock was on top "longer" since he was champ for most of 1976-81 sans Verne's year with it, and then a top heel even in that stretch. The AWA was a large territory, and Bock did travel outside of it a bit. Hard to say he covered the ground that the NWA Champ did in that stretch.

 

One could say that we should carve out the Champs into one bucket, ponder to what degree Bock was a "Promotional Champ" vs "Touring Champ", and then throw everyone else into a different bucket to compare. It's really hard to compare even someone like Valentine to those guys.

 

Graham was done in the 1976-81 period once he left the WWF in late 1978. Pretty much fell off the earth. A great peak, but a vacuum after. 3 of the 6 years... hard to overcome.

 

Valentine is an interesting one. Gets a boost from the 1979 series with Backlund, and then the 1981 return series with Bob... though it's a tricky one to try to pocket all into 1981:

 

10/19/81 Madison Square Garden

11/21/81 Baltimore Civic Cener

11/23/81 Madison Square Garden

12/12/81 Philadelphia Spectrum

 

01/09/82 Boston Garden

01/16/82 Philadelphia Spectrum

01/17/82 Maple Leaf Garden, Toronto

01/22/82 Pittsburgh Civic Center

01/23/82 Capital Centre (DC)

02/13/82 Providence Civic Center

03/07/82 New Haven Coliseum

04/13/82 Nassau Coliseum

 

That's are the 10K+ arenas that we have results so far for. There isn't a listing for it running in the Hartford Civic Center. I'm not sure if the Springfield Civic Center was 10K before it's renovations... think that I've seen the crowds top out at 9K. Anyway... It's one of those feuds that across the territory split across years.

 

JCP is interesting because he clearly was a star there, it's more of a question on the heel side where did he actually rank? When Ric was a heel, was he behind Ric? When Ric went face, was the top heel the guy who was opposite Ric... or was it Greg? No something that I know.

[KrisZ]

JCP never actually had a hierarchy system of just one guy on top during that period but sometimes 2-3 top faces and heels just switching off although when push came to shove it was Flair vs. Valentine with Steamer & Snuka right behind each of them. Now like I posted once Piper came in the game changed and he took over as the lead heel by January.

[JerryvonKramer]

What would be interesting, if a little tedious, is naming the top 1-2 heels per promotion per year. Something like a much more detailed, accurate version of the list I did on the first page.

 

However, I do wonder if that is even possible with proper "babyface promotions" though. Same question as jdw really: Is the top heel the guy who happens to be working the top face? Was Kamala the top WWF heel at any time in 1986 because he worked a program with Hogan? Or was "the top heel" simply put Piper? Or was it King Kong Bundy? Or actually was it Heenan? Or even Savage? It's hard to say isn't it. You could do that pretty much with every year from 88 to 90, assuming Andre is a lock for 87 (we can give 91-2 to Flair).

[KrisZ]

Angelo "King Kong" Mosca

 

- Placement on cards. Was the wrestler in question getting consistent main event or meaningful matches. Were they involved in feuds and storylines that seemed to have a real impact on the business during the period?

Mosca was always a main eventer wherever he went during this 5 year period starting in JCP where he took Flair's spot after the plane crash and through AWA where even though he wasn't the main heel he was right there in the 2-3 hole plus had big feuds with Larry Hennig & Peter Maivia. Mosca then went to GCW where he was the Georgia champ when that was the main title feuding with all the top faces of the promotion. Mosca then became one of the top heels for the newly founded Mid-South Wrestling where he had feuds with Orndorff, Robley, & Watts. 1980 is where you see Mosca working babyface most of the year in Toronto & Winnipeg before jumping to WWF in 1981 where he had maybe his best run in his career where he had runs at Backlund and a huge feud with Pat Patterson where he threw water in his face which was a big deal.

 

- "Anchoring." Were promotions and territories built around them and/or were they in the lead heel spot in a promotion.

Definitely a leadish type heel in Georgia in 1978 and WWF in 1981.

 

- In Demand. Were promoters all over the country trying to get dates for them? If so were these big time spots, small time spots, or a combination of both.

I gave the list of territories he worked above and he was a strong name.

 

- Opponents. Were they working big name opposition consistently? Were they getting title shots when and if they were brought into territories.

Worked all the top guys of his era and got title shots against them plus was a common Andre opponent.

 

- Titles. What titles did they hold if any and would they be considered important/relevant reigns?

Mid-Atlantic TV Title, Georgia Heavyweight Title, Canadian Heavyweight Title, & AWA British Empire Title.

 

- Drawing Power. Did the person in question pop attendance figures? If not were they working on top during hot periods that they were able to help sustain?

Mosca worked on top for territories that were doing good-great business so yeah he didn't take away from that. Mosca wasn't a good worker but he was very effective in his role.

[jdw]

JCP never actually had a hierarchy system of just one guy on top during that period but sometimes 2-3 top faces and heels just switching off although when push came to shove it was Flair vs. Valentine with Steamer & Snuka right behind each of them. Now like I posted once Piper came in the game changed and he took over as the lead heel by January.

I understand: JCP ran their two crews, and tended to have two strong programs on each i.e. drawing matches in the top two matches. They also kept Greg well endowed with titles in the 1976-81 stretches where he was in town:

 

12/26/76 - 05/08/77 WTT with Flair

06/11/77 - 04/02/78 Mid Atlantic Champ Title run

10/30/77 - 04/xx/78 WTT with Flair

06/07/78 - 12/26/78 WTT with Von Raschke

 

Then he went to the WWF.

 

Not long after he was back, he was back in business:

 

03/29/80 - 05/10/80 WTT with Stevens (this felt more like getting Stevens over, since Greg switched to the US Title)

07/26/80 - 11/24/80 US Title run (between Flair reigns)

 

Then had various TV title reigns in 1981 before heading back to the WWF. And of course was in the US Title after he returned in 1982.

 

The question more was in the sense of whether he was consistently pushed Super Strong (as Flair pretty much was from a certain point on), or if he ebb'd and flowed a bit. Blackjack clearly got a huge push in 1976 through mid-77s. Hard to say that Greg was above him. I don't know how much we know about the Flair & Valentine team to know if it was total equals, or if Ric was just a bit more of the draw in it.

[KrisZ]

Flair & Valentine was the classic case of the charismatic guy and the workhorse but different as the charismatic guy was a workhorse also. They tried to make Valentine into Flair after Flair turned face even doing the same angle they did with Steamer & Flair 3 years earlier as Flair would strip Valentine in the ring.

 

Valentine's main weakness was his charisma outside the ring as yeah he was good enough on the stick he wasn't Flair, Mulligan, Piper, or Patera. Regarding his push Valentine was a main eventer in all of his JCP runs.....he was a made man.

[jdw]

Not questioning that he worked mains in all of those runs. Was more asking: are we giving him credit for main eventing through the Entire period of those runs?

 

Harley was a main eventer pretty every night he held the title and challenged for the title. There were exceptions, but it would be well under 10% of the time where he clearly wasn't Main Event or part of a Co-Main Event.

 

It use to be easier to find posters / clippings on the Mid-Atlantic gateway, but I don't know if they got a cease & desist or ran into server space or someone got "creative" and buried it. It's a bitch now to find stuff.

 

Anyway, here are two from 1981:

 

GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA

April 18, 1981

 

That was in his TV Title run, and after his US Title run with Flair.

 

CINCINNATI, OHIO

October 16, 1981

 

That one was as he was finishing up before heading back to the WWF. Makes sense that he's down there.

 

I'm never one to say that the Top of the Poster or "Goes On Last" is always the Main Event or the Only Main Event. We've seen enough over the years to know of co-Mains or a semi-final that's as much of a draw. I'm more interested in: while we know that Greg was "pushed" and "made" throughout his JCP runs, is it correct to see a 24 month period and credit Greg for being a main eventer for those entire 24 months?

 

Hogan from 1984-88 was a main eventer in the WWF.

 

Once we move beyond Hogan in that period, it gets tough. :/

[Dylan Waco]

Looking at Greensboro results often gives you a decent idea of the MACW depth chart, though not even that is always reliable. It is a pretty tough, especially relative to other spots.

[KrisZ]

See that's where the 3 state system comes in as they ran almost every night and Valentine was in a position to be a main eventer most of the time. Yeah those cards you put up where during the period where Greg slid down the card to advance Piper, Andersons, & Ivan.

 

My 70's results are far from being complete as I don't have the time to really devote myself to filling all the holes but I'm fairly solid on 1980 and Valentine was in 101 main events that year and the semi-main event 37 times.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think one of the things that has become pretty clear from this thread if it wasn't already is that in the era Dylan has outlined, there were really two different types of heels: a heel staple for a given territory or promotion, and then your top heel who was brought in for runs.

 

I think it's quite hard to compare them because the second variety is almost always going to be drawing against top babyfaces where ever they go. If you say "well, Hogan was the main eventer for WWF 84-88", then isn't this essentially the same thing on a smaller scale? Every Mosca run or Ivan Koloff run or whoever's run is similar to your Hogan vs. Kamala or King Kong Bundy feuds. Only they move on and do their act in a different place against another top babyface once the run is done.

 

How much do you credit doing that vs. the sort of thing Valentine was doing on these cards?

 

How many top heels outside of Rose and Bockwinkel had lengthy (as in 3+ year) runs in a given place?

[Dylan Waco]

Another thing with MACW is that it's not even easy to tell by size of market because the arena sizes in some of the smaller markets were bigger than they were in some of the bigger market areas.

[JerryvonKramer]

Before I disappear for a day or so, I was just looking at some title histories for different territories and couldn't help but notice that The Spoiler held just about every territorial singles title going in the 76-81 period:

 

Georgia Heavyweight Championship (Jan-Feb 76, vs. Dusty and Dick Slater)

Florida Heavyweight Champ (May-September 78 vs Brisco, Dusty and Keirn, Nov-Dec 81 vs. Mr. Wrestling II)

NWA American Heavyweight Championship (Texas) (April-August 79, vs. Wahoo, El Halcon, and Brody)

NWA North American Heavyweight Championship (Mid-South area) (Nov. 76, vs. DiBiase, but seems to have skipped town or otherwise been unable to defend since "The Brute" defended on his behalf)

 

Also feuded with The Crusher in AWA as Super Destroyer, plus numerous challenges for the NWA World title.

 

He surely has to be "up there" with Mosca in this period.

[KrisZ]

Yeah Don Jardine was definitely high in the list for this era.

[Dylan Waco]

Jardine is someone I really think should be on the WON ballot to be honest and I'm glad he came up in this thread as he is worth thinking about

[Superstar Sleeze]

Honestly, I have nothing to contribute, but it is these threads that make me love this place. I have just filled in my gaps between 83-88 and I think this thread will help me reach even further back. Just a great, great thread topic, I know I am going to learn a lot from it. Thanks.

[thebrainfollower]

I agree wholeheartedly. I feel like pwo is the Ernie Ladd of wrestling sites. "Come on and sit under the learning tree son".

 

 

 

Honestly, I have nothing to contribute, but it is these threads that make me love this place. I have just filled in my gaps between 83-88 and I think this thread will help me reach even further back. Just a great, great thread topic, I know I am going to learn a lot from it. Thanks.

[Matt D]

When and where was Ox Baker on top the most?

[khawk20]

Bruiser's WWA would be my guess.

[KrisZ]

Ox had his best runs in WWA & ICW (Poffo)