Vince McMahon - Reallly a "Genius"?

[Johnny Sorrow]

Again, the "inherit" term kind of implies Vince was given the promotion by his father along with money to boot. But there were all kinds of details about if Vince couldn't make the payments to his dad and his cronies, he would have lost ownership. By all accounts I've read, Vince and Linda had to scramble at times and take great risks to maintain ownership for awhile. People tend to forget that Vince grew up poor and barely knew his dad until he was a teenager. And that deal doesn't sound like some sort of "loving father who bequeathed the business to his son".

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd also like to talk about advantages. "He took daddy's money and bought out the talent, making him the only game in town".

 

Did that sell out Wembley in 92?

 

Let's think about advantages. Turner owned a TV station AND he's Ted Turner. They also bought out all the talent. Who won?

 

Think people are quick to sell Vince short.

Context. The former was a big part of the 80's push to be the main game. The later 90's and the WCW wars were different.

 

Right, and my point is that in two completely different contexts (there's actually 3, breaking the UK market and other European markets in the early 90s is a third context), he came out top both times.

 

The narrative of inheritance plays down what Vince actually did on his own merits (the stuff me and Loss are talking about) and plays up his advantages and the significance of the talent raids. There'll be some who say "it was all Hogan" too.

 

But when the tables were turned and it was the big boys coming after him -- with superior resources and a superior roster* -- he still won. The point is that the tools of success did not come down to Vince Sr's money or talent raids -- they helped sure, but they alone do not account for why Vince was successful in the 80s. And the 90s example demonstrates it.

 

* It's easy to say in hindsight of course that "yeah but with The Rock and Austin he could have taken anyone", but the reality was if you look from the other way he was going up against Flair, Hogan, Savage, Nash and Hall, Bret Hart, and basically any other major star you care to name with Stunning Steve, Rocky Johnson's son, Jean-Paul Lévesque and Ken Shamrock.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'd also like to talk about advantages. "He took daddy's money and bought out the talent, making him the only game in town".

 

Did that sell out Wembley in 92?

 

Let's think about advantages. Turner owned a TV station AND he's Ted Turner. They also bought out all the talent. Who won?

 

Think people are quick to sell Vince short.

Context. The former was a big part of the 80's push to be the main game. The later 90's and the WCW wars were different.

 

Right, and my point is that in two completely different contexts (there's actually 3, breaking the UK market and other European markets in the early 90s is a third context), he came out top both times.

 

The narrative of inheritance plays down what Vince actually did on his own merits (the stuff me and Loss are talking about) and plays up his advantages and the significance of the talent raids. There'll be some who say "it was all Hogan" too.

 

But when the tables were turned and it was the big boys coming after him -- with superior resources and a superior roster* -- he still won. The point is that the tools of success did not come down to Vince Sr's money or talent raids -- they helped sure, but they alone do not account for why Vince was successful in the 80s. And the 90s example demonstrates it.

 

* It's easy to say in hindsight of course that "yeah but with The Rock and Austin he could have taken anyone", but the reality was if you look from the other way he was going up against Flair, Hogan, Savage, Nash and Hall, Bret Hart, and basically any other major star you care to name with Stunning Steve, Rocky Johnson's son, Jean-Paul Lévesque and Ken Shamrock.

 

And Taker and Foley.

[JerryvonKramer]

This would take us too off-topic but there's an interesting question to ask about Taker's role for the company and when he really became a big megastar. How did he draw in 94? (awful angle I know) How did he draw vs. Diesel? If someone looked into that in detail I'd be interested.

 

I also don't think Cactus Jack is much of a name to be putting up against Hogan and co looking from BEFORE the Monday Night Wars. If you were a coach choosing draft picks without any hindsight, your 1 through 5 picks are probably all working for WCW.

[NintendoLogic]

Vince's success in the 90s was due more to luck than any kind of brilliant creative vision. He didn't win the Monday Night Wars with Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, he won them with The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin.

[JerryvonKramer]

Vince's success in the 90s was due more to luck than any kind of brilliant creative vision. He didn't win the Monday Night Wars with Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, he won them with The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin.

So he won in 80s with daddy's money and won in 90s through blind luck? I guess that's giving him credit where it is due isn't it.

[NintendoLogic]

Vince was successful in the 80s because of his creative vision. The 90s were more about things falling into place for him.

[Johnny Sorrow]

1. Again, he didn't have daddy's money, (for those who still say that.)

2. I included Foley as he was another WCW cast off along with Stunning Steve.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm stepping out of this before I get myself too worked up, but on the same board where some people thought I was a total idiot for thinking that external factors may have had a part in Bill Watts's downfall in Mid-South. That no, in fact, it was him alone and his product all along that was to blame.

 

I'm not going to take it from some of those same people who in this argument are going to argue that, whereas Watts was to blame for his failure, no in fact Vince actually isn't responsible for his own success.

[thebrainfollower]

As a former debate coach and teacher (and still the best record in MA as a debater, insert your own tired jokes) I gotta say I'd hand JVK the easy victory here on points. Some thoughts, comparing Vince to Goebbels brings up a point. A lot of people simply won't credit Vince because he either destroyed their beloved NWA or JCP or what have you, or they simply hate his product. Regardless of what you think of Goebbels he invented much of modern political propaganda and got a bunch of creeps (and I'm being generous) worshiped by a nation for 12 years. That's impressive. Sick but impressive. You can despise Vince and still consider him a genius. I don't like him as a person per se from everything I've read and seen but yes he is a genius clearly.

 

It's pretty obvious Vince is the most successful wrestling promoter in history. He did NOT do that with his father's money. He did that by using more successful business models than wrestling. He was the only promoter to think outside the wrestling box totally in decades and have the resources to pull it off. Memphis did a lot of stuff but at the end of the day Memphis was about making Jerry Lawler look great almost as much as being a successful business. Vince kept his own ego in check, never made himself a star (and when he did he was one of the greatest wrestling heels ever for a few years so credit that too) and created a massively successful company.

 

His run in the 90's? Well he was smart enough to admit thing weren't working and smart enough to find the right people to listen to and get things out of them NOBODY could (I'm looking at you Mr. Russo). So credit him for a lot of that too.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Memphis was successful in large part because Lawler looked great. And WAS great.

[evilclown]

1. Again, he didn't have daddy's money, (for those who still say that.)

Of course he did.

[Johnny Sorrow]

1. Again, he didn't have daddy's money, (for those who still say that.)

Of course he did.

 

Everything I've ever read said that Vince had to make payments to his old man or else the deal would die. If you know better, please fill me in. I'm not being a dick here, that's the story I've always known.

[tim]

I can't say I have a great deal of biographical information for many wrestling promoters but Vince seems like he stumbled upon being a uniquely propitious mix of businessman and promoter. He was an "insider" enough to, obviously, have been put into a position where he was managing a major promotion. If Vince McMahon Jr's father wasn't Vince McMahon Sr, this conversation wouldn't be happening, which matters a lot imo as far as how much "Vince McMahon as self made genius" is a reasonable thing to think. He was enough of an outsider to think "beyond" was wrestling was at the time and did have a business degree from a college, and although it's not like he went to Wharton or anything I don't know if any other major promoter of the time would have come at managing their promotion with a real "pure business" mindset.

 

That right mix of wrestling and business background/opportunity combined with his work ethic and some serious talents he does have was a recipe for big success. Is he a very capable businessman with a great mind for his product? Obviously. But I think it's too far to call him a genius. WWE has spewed out way too much downright garbage and has had too many extended periods of very poor overall quality to really think of him as a CREATIVE genius, and pretty wanting business success/popularity in an era where WWE is essentially a monopoly makes me question the idea of Vince as a Jobs-esque business/marketing genius.

[evilclown]

1. Again, he didn't have daddy's money, (for those who still say that.)

Of course he did.

 

Everything I've ever read said that Vince had to make payments to his old man or else the deal would die. If you know better, please fill me in. I'm not being a dick here, that's the story I've always known.

 

Vince McMahon Sr died in May, 1984.

[Johnny Sorrow]

1. Again, he didn't have daddy's money, (for those who still say that.)

Of course he did.

 

Everything I've ever read said that Vince had to make payments to his old man or else the deal would die. If you know better, please fill me in. I'm not being a dick here, that's the story I've always known.

 

Vince McMahon Sr died in May, 1984.

 

And Vince jr bought the WWF from his Dad in 1982. And didn't Sr. leave whatever he had to his old lady?

[Log]

One thing that Vince has to be credited for is his attention to detail. He cleaned up the wrestling product for national television. That (to me) was one of his biggest strengths.

 

Little things that don't seem like a big deal, but can hook a viewer. On all of the AWA I've seen from the Showboat, there are always four or five empty seats in the front row directly across from the hard camera. Vince would've never let empty front row seats appear on tv. Makes it look like you couldn't sell those seats.

[Smack2k]

I'm stepping out of this before I get myself too worked up, but on the same board where some people thought I was a total idiot for thinking that external factors may have had a part in Bill Watts's downfall in Mid-South. That no, in fact, it was him alone and his product all along that was to blame.

 

I'm not going to take it from some of those same people who in this argument are going to argue that, whereas Watts was to blame for his failure, no in fact Vince actually isn't responsible for his own success.

Parv, I am not part of the his own success argument...but my whole point was that everything he's done is around something he grew up with and was familiar with....that isnt a "genius" to me....I think he gets too much credit for doing one thing incredible well and fucking up countless others with money.....

[Johnny Sorrow]

One thing that Vince has to be credited for is his attention to detail. He cleaned up the wrestling product for national television. That (to me) was one of his biggest strengths.

 

Little things that don't seem like a big deal, but can hook a viewer. On all of the AWA I've seen from the Showboat, there are always four or five empty seats in the front row directly across from the hard camera. Vince would've never let empty front row seats appear on tv. Makes it look like you couldn't sell those seats.

You're right, but on the AWA party podcasts we figured that out. The Casino probably saved those seats for high rollers, and they kept them open In case some high roller at the failing casino wanted to take advantage of the offer of ringside seats that'll put you on TV.

 

Edit: And since it was AWA, no one really cared. I'm sure those empty seats pissed off Verne.

[evilclown]

And Vince jr bought the WWF from his Dad in 1982. And didn't Sr. leave whatever he had to his old lady?

I need to arrange a deal where I "buy" a company using that same company's future revenue as the source of payment. Pretty sweet deal!

[BrickHithouse]

And Vince jr bought the WWF from his Dad in 1982. And didn't Sr. leave whatever he had to his old lady?

I need to arrange a deal where I "buy" a company using that same company's future revenue as the source of payment. Pretty sweet deal!

 

Pretty sweet yes, almost "genius"!

[Johnny Sorrow]

And Vince jr bought the WWF from his Dad in 1982. And didn't Sr. leave whatever he had to his old lady?

I need to arrange a deal where I "buy" a company using that same company's future revenue as the source of payment. Pretty sweet deal!

 

Since I'm from Jersey, I can appreciate someone being a cock. But since I'm now a mellow Coloradan, try that again as I asked, minus the douchebaggery. Cause I've yet to read a thing about Junioir having to make his payments to dad, Monsoon, and the rest. Thanks, man.

[rainmakerrtv]

I'm stepping out of this before I get myself too worked up, but on the same board where some people thought I was a total idiot for thinking that external factors may have had a part in Bill Watts's downfall in Mid-South. That no, in fact, it was him alone and his product all along that was to blame.

 

I'm not going to take it from some of those same people who in this argument are going to argue that, whereas Watts was to blame for his failure, no in fact Vince actually isn't responsible for his own success.

Parv, I am not part of the his own success argument...but my whole point was that everything he's done is around something he grew up with and was familiar with....that isnt a "genius" to me....I think he gets too much credit for doing one thing incredible well and fucking up countless others with money.....

 

A genius can be a damned fool outside their field of specialization.

[Smack2k]

I havent read anything about paybacks either, outside guarantee's of jobs for life for those involved...but monetarily no...

[Sean Liska]

I'm OK with people not considering Vince a genius, but I don't see how anyone else in the history of the industry could be one then.

 

I hate the argument that Vince stumbled into Austin and the Attitude success. They set up Austin as Bret's opponent for his big first match back at SS96, they booked and executed a brilliant double turn at Mania - one of the great angles of all-time, with weeks of TV leading to that moment, they came up with the idea of the Harts being lead heels in America and lead faces in Canada and stuck Austin in the middle of this explosive dynamic, they had him stun Vince at MSG on RAW in a huge moment, they made a $3 million gamble on Tyson when money was much tighter and booked the whole scenario to perfection with DX playing great heels, Vince himself stepped up and became one of the greatest heels of all-time and Austin's perfect adversary, the Foley feud after Mania was perfect, the Highway to Hell with Undertaker for SummerSlam 98 was booked brilliantly and did huge business, they elevated Rock and turned him into a perfect heel foil for Austin.

 

That's like two full years of perfect booking for Austin. How do people still see that as something that was stumbled into?