WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Loss]

Why Gary Hart? On the strength of his run as a booker, as a manager or both? I've never really heard his case discussed, so I am curious. In general, I wish there was more discussion of the non-wrestler candidates.

[Bix]

Why Gary Hart? On the strength of his run as a booker, as a manager or both? I've never really heard his case discussed, so I am curious. In general, I wish there was more discussion of the non-wrestler candidates.

Both. I had been locked into the other four since I got my ballot so I reserved the last spot for the most "sentimental" pick of the other guys I was considering. At least for now. I'm willing to switch him out for Dave Brown or Gene Okerlund or Bill Apter or whoever if someone makes a persuasive argument.

[Hollinger.]

Speaking of Gary Hart... anybody got a line on borrowing a copy of his book?

[evilclown]

I don't understand the case for some of the non-wrestlers. Gary Hart? Really? Even in his own self flattering autobiography he doesn't come off as a HOF'er.

[Bix]

Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to be swayed there, but he was an anchor manager in Texas, big star in Australia, successful booker, etc.

[jdw]

When you watched the tapes every week from 1997-2001, it's hard to think about Sasaki as a Hall of Famer. He just wasn't pushed that way and the crowd didn't react to him that way.

This is my stumbling block with him. Deeper than that. I started watching the weekely stuff in 1989, actually with the tag league ending the prior year. I pretty much watched Chono, Hash, Mutoh and Sasaki grow up, with really only Mutoh getting a push of any note prior to the time I started watching. I started zoning out of the weekly TV at some point in 2001: AJPW split the year before, Hash-Ogawa just killed me for NJPW, and NOAH did little for me. Sasaki in that period just didn't do anything for me in a HOF fashion. The work was quite sub-Taue. The impact on drawing wasn't there. Quality feuds or rivalries wasn't there.

 

His big matches since then haven't done anything for me, and the business was in the tank in his alleged "peak".

 

What I tend to circle back in my mind is that I sat there in Sumo Hall five straight nights at the very peak of New Japan in the 90s. And these were the main events:

 

08/02/96 Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto

08/03/96 Shiro Koshinaka vs Kazuo Yamazaki

08/04/96 Shiro Koshinaka vs Masa Chono

08/05/96 Keiji Mutoh vs Shiro Koshinaka

08/06/96 G1 Final (Choshu vs Mutoh)

 

Right in the middle of it, Choshu trusted that Koshinaka could go on last three straight nights against tricky opponents and deliver matches that the fans felt were main event level. On 08/05/96, the second-to-last match was Choshu-Sasaki, which would decide the winner of that block since Choshu had a default the next night due to Hirata's injury. Deciding match of a block, with Choshu in it against his protege... and he chose Mutoh-Kosh to go on last.

 

It wasn't just the trust. It was that Kosh went out there and delivered matches that the fans did enjoy.

 

I get that Sasaki popped the fans in any number of later matches after that peak. But there are six names that got into main events those nights, and none of them were Sasaki. Two of them were guys pushed far less than he was, and those two happened to be against each other in one of the mains (Kosh and Yamazaki).

 

For all the "honors" that he bagged, Sasaki just hasn't been that huge of a wrestler.

[kjh]

Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to be swayed there, but he was an anchor manager in Texas, big star in Australia, successful booker, etc.

I'm considering voting for him too. He was the booker who sparked business in Texas in late 1983. He was instrumental in the successful babyface turn of Dusty Rhodes in Florida a decade earlier. Under his guidance he turned a lot of struggling journeymen into drawing stars (The Great Kabuki, The Spoiler, Pak Song, etc). I think the only arguments against him are that his record is too spotty and that the plane crash limited him as a performer, as from that point on he couldn't take any bumps.

[KrisZ]

Hart was a successful manager/booker in all the biggest territories except WWF. I think he should be in no doubt.

[Dylan Waco]

What does successful manager/booker mean? I understand that Hart was around and perhaps involved in a lot of big moments, but what about his career is historically significant, unique or outstanding? What people in for booking or managing would he be comparable too?

[evilclown]

Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to be swayed there, but he was an anchor manager in Texas, big star in Australia, successful booker, etc.

I'm considering voting for him too. He was the booker who sparked business in Texas in late 1983. He was instrumental in the successful babyface turn of Dusty Rhodes in Florida a decade earlier. Under his guidance he turned a lot of struggling journeymen into drawing stars (The Great Kabuki, The Spoiler, Pak Song, etc). I think the only arguments against him are that his record is too spotty and that the plane crash limited him as a performer, as from that point on he couldn't take any bumps.

 

The booker didn't spark business in Texas in 1983. The talent did. I think it's telling that the only one talking about Hart as some kind of booking genius was Hart himself.

 

Also, the fact he was terrible also has to be considered. What was special about him as a performer?

[KrisZ]

Ken Mantell got to book the bulk of the run but it was Gary Hart who put them there and it was Gary who booked the Christmas night turn that sparked the business.

 

Gary had successful runs in Australia,CWF, GCW, JCP, & WCCW where he created the American Dream, The Great Kabuki, King Kong Bundy, One Man Gang, The Samoan Swat Team, & The Great Muta gimmicks and helped season guys like Pak Song, Bob Orton Jr., Dick Slater, The Spoiler, Gino Hernandez, & Al Perez.

 

When he was in GCW in 1975-76 he was red hot managing Abby, Orton & Slater (who were one of the best teams in the world at this time), Brute Bernard, The Spoiler, Nikolai Volkoff and that was fresh from helping transform Florida the year earlier before the plane crash.

 

Hart also managed Rip Hawk & Swede Hanson when they were kings of the tag scene in Jim Crockett Promotions in 1970-71.

 

Hart's relationship with Mark Lewin spanned many territories and years and was very successful as well.

 

Before going to Florida, Hart & Spoiler helped Bill Watts start his new territory and the Watts/Spoiler feud made his territory giving it the chance to succeed which Watts said in his book that he owed mostly to Gary.

 

Hart also booked JCP around the time of the first Starrcade helping put that show together with his friend Dusty.

 

Just a few things about Gary.

[Dylan Waco]

How is Hart a better candidate then say Ole Anderson or is he not?

[Cox]

Also in Gary Hart's favor: dude lost a hair match, and never grew his hair back again. Now that's commitment!

[evilclown]

Gary had successful runs in Australia,CWF, GCW, JCP, & WCCW where he created the American Dream, The Great Kabuki, King Kong Bundy, One Man Gang, The Samoan Swat Team, & The Great Muta gimmicks and helped season guys like Pak Song, Bob Orton Jr., Dick Slater, The Spoiler, Gino Hernandez, & Al Perez.

While Hart was standing outside the ring, Sergeant Slaughter was drawing all over the country and wrestling in some pretty good matches. While Hart was the secret booker in Texas (per Hart), Ole Anderson was main eventing Georgia and Crockett. Not watching other people in the semi-main or midcard. Actually doing the thing.

 

Why would Hart be a Hall of Famer for his role managing talent that isn't in itself Hall of Fame worthy?

 

There's no doubt he had a full career. Was it a Hall of Fame career? It always kind of tickles me that he somehow gets credit for "creating" all the talent he worked with. We don't pretend that's the case with every manager. With any manager.

 

The wrestlers you mentioned he managed, almost to a man, did as well or better before and/or after Hart. I'm not sure he was integral to the success of good talent. They did well because they were good.

[KrisZ]

How is Hart a better candidate then say Ole Anderson or is he not?

Well for one they are in different categories.

 

Ole had success as a booker no doubt in GCW & JCP but he stayed in his comfort zones and didn't travel around like Gary did plus the biggest difference was Ole was actually wrestling and booking while Hart managed so Ole had more of a direct contact with his plans.

 

We can't discount Gary's creative mind in all of this as well and Ole well he created the Road Warriors but that's about it. Ole's booking stigma was he had a lot of failure post-1982.

 

The promoters trusted Gary like very few especially guys like Eddie Graham, Bill Watts, & Jim Barnett who were power players.

[Dylan Waco]

This is an honest question - how much of the Hart stuff is directly sourced to his book? If Buck Robley had written a well regarded book, instead of doing a series of "shoots" with Garby Cubeta would we be talking about him like we talk about Hart? I don't even mean that as a cheap shot, it's a serious question I have.

[evilclown]

This is an honest question - how much of the Hart stuff is directly sourced to his book? If Buck Robley had written a well regarded book, instead of doing a series of "shoots" with Garby Cubeta would we be talking about him like we talk about Hart? I don't even mean that as a cheap shot, it's a serious question I have.

His book was an extended self high five. Had he been Hogan or anyone else it would have been mocked mercilessly. He was the smartest and the toughest, with his razor blade, guy in the whole business. At least when he had the pen in hand.

[KrisZ]

I never read Hart's book so I wouldn't know

[Dylan Waco]

Well Hart had zero traction prior to his book/death. I don't recall his name ever coming up in HoF conversation prior to that point. Of course it's possible he was just overlooked, but it's not like he had a big cheering section prior to the book either.

[KrisZ]

Death does that to a lot of celebrities...especially in sports. There have been many guys in the MLB & NFL HOF's that didn't get in until after they died.

 

When it comes to the ballot hell look at the plight of Jimmy Hart.

[Dylan Waco]

Oh sure there are lots of guys who have been overlooked, but Hart feels unique to me because prior to his book you almost never saw him discussed as an all time great at anything.

[evilclown]

I can't recall any discussion of his secret booking genius before his book where he basically takes credit for any and everything that happened in his vicinity. I wonder about that.

[KrisZ]

Well to be honest how much of the old stuff was being talked about online before say 10 years ago.....most of your forums was Japanese or current wrestling centric.

 

Wrestling Classics & Kayfabe Memories were around but it catered to a niche audience. Not to pat ourselves on the back but the 80's project has been very key in getting discussion going about non-WWF/WCW American wrestling back in the day on forums non-WC or KM.

 

James Beard speaks on Gary here and if you look up Gary Hart stuff on WC you see a lot of the same in other posts.

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...ic;f=9;t=074110

 

Like I said I never read Hart's book but I did read Watts' and he glowed about him.

[Matt D]

Well to be honest how much of the old stuff was being talked about online before say 10 years ago.....most of your forums was Japanese or current wrestling centric.

 

Wrestling Classics & Kayfabe Memories were around but it catered to a niche audience. Not to pat ourselves on the back but the 80's project has been very key in getting discussion going about non-WWF/WCW American wrestling back in the day on forums non-WC or KM.

Footage being more easily available makes a big difference, not to downplay what you guys have done. The idea that I'd watch 150 AWA matches (and probably double that with all the extra watching I did) would have been outlandish five years ago.

 

Like I said I never read Hart's book but I did read Watts' and he glowed about him.

He has less positive things to say about Robley since he was brought up.

[KrisZ]

The deal about Robley was he helped popped Mid-South with Birds/JYD but as a whole his runs weren't as good as Hart's and he rode Brody's coattails for years.