WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Dylan Waco]

I am extremely skeptical that Meltzer counts those X's as No votes.

[pantherwagner]

On Japan being over-represented in the HOF:

 

There are more women wrestlers from the 80s-90s than guys who made their name in Mexico in the 80s-90s. Think about how ridiculous that is. The two iconic Dump vs Chigusa hair matches drew what would be overly disappointing Toreo houses anywhere from 1975 to 1987. El Signo's left nut probably drew more fans than a lot of people who are in the HOF primarily as "draws". (Nothing against Matsumoto or Nagayo... they are true first-ballot no-brainer candidates. if I could only vote for two women to be in, they'd be the top two).

 

AJW: Kong, Nakano, Nagayo, Asuka, Masami, Matsumoto, Sato, Yokota, Toyota, Hokuto (10)

Lucha: Aguayo, Canek, Casas, Santo Jr., Dos Caras, Lizmark, Satanico, Konnan, Atlantis (9). If you count Eddy and Rey Jr. as lucha candidates then it's only 1 more lucha candidate than AJW. On the same token, Aguayo and Canek were solid main event stars before 1980, so you could argue they shouldn't be on my list.

 

To me it isn't that Japan is over-represented but other areas such as some territories and Mexico are under-represented.

[Timbo Slice]

I like Taue as a work candidate, personally. Problem is the perception of what he was compared to his peers. Misawa was the Ace. Kawada was the Ace's biggest rival. Kobashi had a rabid following and was a unique draw. Taue was the fourth wheel that made sure the car didn't run lopsided. "Glue guys" don't really get Hall of Fame mentions. Hase getting in was always weird to me. He's as close to Taue as you'll get from a comparison standpoint in the case of draw and stature and Taue kills him in the ring. If Hase is in, Taue has a better case.

 

I agree that this is kind of the chum of the Japanese candidates in many ways, but this is also that sliding scale I was talking about earlier. With Sasaki being in, Hase being in, guys like Akiyama and Taue will get a harder look and with more deep diving into their careers, there's a good chance both of them will get in simply due to Sasaki and Hase being in and being inferior candidates in many ways.

[Indikator]

The two iconic Dump vs Chigusa hair matches drew what would be overly disappointing Toreo houses anywhere from 1975 to 1987.

But they got more merch $$$ per head than Hulk and Austin iirc . I don't think the ticket prices in Toreo would make those shows more profitable than AJW.

[tofu_chipmunk]

El Signo's left nut probably drew more fans than a lot of people who are in the HOF primarily as "draws".

No doubt, but the right one is a weak candidate as it was just along for the ride.

[pantherwagner]

El Signo's left nut probably drew more fans than a lot of people who are in the HOF primarily as "draws".

No doubt, but the right one is a weak candidate as it was just along for the ride.

 

Don't you dare insult Negro Navarro.

[pantherwagner]

The two iconic Dump vs Chigusa hair matches drew what would be overly disappointing Toreo houses anywhere from 1975 to 1987.

But they got more merch $$$ per head than Hulk and Austin iirc . I don't think the ticket prices in Toreo would make those shows more profitable than AJW.

 

Of course, and I'm not taking anything down from their drawing power. It was a brilliant scheme. However I don't think it's fair to compare Tokyo "economic miracle/bubble" prices with early 80s Mexican economy prices. If you compare dollar amounts at the end of the day Mexican promotions will always fare poorly. At the height of the Mistico drawing power I got two decent Arena Mexico tickets for something like 25 bucks (from a scalper) and that's with a Spanish from Spain accent that I can't obviously hide from a Mexican. I have it somewhere at home but I'm pretty sure the Big Egg Wrestling Universe program was at least that much if not more.

[pantherwagner]

El Signo's left nut probably drew more fans than a lot of people who are in the HOF primarily as "draws".

No doubt, but the right one is a weak candidate as it was just along for the ride.

 

Don't you dare insult Negro Navarro.

 

By the way it sounds weird today but three decades ago Negro Navarro was considered the 3rd best worker from Los Misioneros de la Muerte. Who, by the way, should be in the WON HOF but I have never pushed for them because I know they have no chance of getting in. Maybe someday but right now it would only dilute the chances for the current crop.

[kjh]

Taue is unlikely to get in. Dave's not behind him, and the view that he's the lesser of the Big 4 is pretty much set in stone with the voters. While that view is also there for Sasaki, this is a problem for Taue relative to Sasaki:

 

Sasaki: 7 IWGP+TC+GHC reigns for 1070 days

Taue: 2 TC+GHC reigns for 139 days

 

Sasaki has the "honors", and one can portray his Domes/Big Halls "headlines" in a way that make him look very good. Taue... it's really tough. You're left trying to make the argument on Work, and it's always going to be a tough sell.

Does Taue get the big show retirement boost next year? By Dave's logic, enough voters may have forgotten or never knew that Taue was difficult to work with and just see his snowflake list of doom and vote him in. Think of him as the anti-Maeda.

 

I agree that he hasn't got the Dome shows, but he was in the semi-final/main event of close to 50 Budokan Hall shows, which could be spun positively if you wanted to.

 

The problem with Japan is that all the good candidates are already in and we're left with a lot of weak/borderline cases, and the only wrestler on the horizon who could develop into a strong HOF level wrestler is Kazuchika Okada who won't be eligible until 2023. If the rate of Japanese inductees stay the same (one a year on average over the last decade), then Taue actually has a pretty good shot at making it.

[pantherwagner]

Taue, Akiyama and Tamura will surely get in at some point. I think two of the three may get in next year. Maybe Suzuki, we will see. It's not like Japanese voters will stop voting altogether in 3 years.

[Al]

Apart from the Hall debate, I'd love to see someone do a historical Top 50 list for Mexican wrestlers. Or hell, a comprehensive book on Lucha for American audiences. There's footage from the last 25-30 years, but Lucha involves 80+ years of history, several weight classes and most of the information seems inaccessible.

[jdw]

I tend to think Taue is a vastly better worker than Koshinaka or Hase, but I get your point.

It was more a Taue-Akiyama and Kosh-Hase parallel, since you were making the Taue-Akiyama point. Kosh has positives that Hase doesn't, though I doubt the majority of voters see it. Taue has positives that Jun doesn't, though I doubt the majority of voters would agree with that at all. On the flip side, Jun has things Taue doesn't have, and I'm willing to bet even Taue supporters would agree on that. Hase has some positives that Kosh doesn't, which we'd agree on. Whether the positives that any of them have make for a HOF worthy candidate... I don't think so. And just as most voters would laugh off at Kosh as a candidate (which isn't unwarranted), they also tend to laugh off at Taue as a candidate... which again isn't unwarranted.

 

The greater problem is that they didn't laugh off the candidacy of Hase, and that they aren't not laughing off the one of Jun.

 

 

Having said that, if you think that's chum consider that KENTA is on the horizon.

I've considered that ever since he was one of the various "Best Worker In The World At This Minute" guys that have popped up in the past decade. Whether he sticks in people's mind, or fades like Kanemoto... who knows. But if Kenta gets in, I wouldn't be terribly surprised.

 

 

There are candidates in the Japan category I think are interesting to one degree or another (Han, Hamada, the Sharpes, admittedly Taue), but it also makes me wish there was a None of The Above option. As it is voters have to select someone they don't think should be in to vote against candidates they fear will get in.

There is a None of the Above option: vote for someone who isn't going to get in. Every region has a low risk candidate.

[jdw]

I like Taue as a work candidate, personally. Problem is the perception of what he was compared to his peers. Misawa was the Ace. Kawada was the Ace's biggest rival. Kobashi had a rabid following and was a unique draw. Taue was the fourth wheel that made sure the car didn't run lopsided. "Glue guys" don't really get Hall of Fame mentions.

Glue guys don't really get All Star Game mentions, or All NBA mentions.

 

When it was Pierce, KG and Allen at the Celtics winning the Title, none of them really were a "glue guy". That's a Shane Battier level.

 

About as good of a glue guy as there's been around in the recent era was Lamar Odom. But guys like Parker and Ginobili on San Antonio aren't glue guys: they've both made multiple All NBA teams, and both have been an All Star 2+ times.

 

I'm not sure Taue really is a glue guy in that trio. It feels more like Fuchi was a glue guy in the Misawa & Co vs Jumbo & Co feud. Taue is above that level in terms of push, was pushed as a "star", held up his end of the bargin at times, exceeded it at others, was subpar at other times. I don't know if I'd draw a direct analogy to Andrew Bynum... there's probably a better comp. But Bynum had some nights/stretches where he looked like an MVP candidate. Had some stretches where he was a good player for a really good team. Had some stretches where he was just kind of there. Bynum's ceiling was higher in terms of raw talent... Taue worked harder at it. Again, there's likely a better comp if we thought a bit about it.

 

Anyway...

 

 

Hase getting in was always weird to me. He's as close to Taue as you'll get from a comparison standpoint in the case of draw and stature and Taue kills him in the ring. If Hase is in, Taue has a better case.

I'm not sure Hase is a comp for Taue as a draw or stature. Taue was pushed within his promotion as a bigger star. Neither of them really were draws, and attempting to paint either at draws is just fluffing the stats.

 

As far as Taue being a better worker, while some might think that, it's a tough sell.

 

Beyond that, Hase has the bullshit "impact in the front offices" aspect that Taue doesn't have. It's pretty much the delusion that got Hase over the top, people bought into it, so there it is. One would need to come up with Taue's own version of that bullshit: that he was Misawa's right hand man in opening NOAH, helped steal NTV, came up with idea of letting Kobashi have a long run with the title, etc, etc, bullshit etc. Then maybe he's got some bullshit that people will buy like they did with Hase.

 

 

I agree that this is kind of the chum of the Japanese candidates in many ways, but this is also that sliding scale I was talking about earlier. With Sasaki being in, Hase being in, guys like Akiyama and Taue will get a harder look and with more deep diving into their careers, there's a good chance both of them will get in simply due to Sasaki and Hase being in and being inferior candidates in many ways.

Here's the problem with trying to work that and how the voters will likely look at it:

 

Jun vs Taue

- Jun main evented Dome Shows that Drew

- Taue didn't

- Jun went to New Japan and drew

- Taue didn't

- Jun held World Titles for long runs

- Taue did

 

That's even if you get voters to buy into the concept that Taue was a better worker for his career and/or at his peak than Jun... which I think is going to be hard to get 60% of the voters to come around to.

 

Sasaki vs Taue

- Kensuke main evented Dome Shows that Drew

- Taue didn't

- Kensuke went to NOAH and drew

- Taue didn't go to NJPW and draw

- Kensuke held World Titles for long runs

- Taue did

 

One can make the Work argument, but as folks have talked about in the thread, the standard (as seen by voters) for a Worker-centric Candidate to get in the HOF is really, really, really high. 60% of the voters don't think Taue was as good as Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi... who of course have more to their candidacy than work. They don't think Taue is a better worker than Liger. They don't think he was a better worker than Benoit or Eddy. They don't think he's a better worker than Hokuto or Toyota, assuming they got in for just work. I'm drawing a blank at a single Worker-only / Worker-centric candidate that 60% of the "Japanese Voters" would think Taue is better than.

 

The Hase vs Taue thing is above: voters thought he was a terrific worker, likely most of them thought he was better than Taue. They also bought into the out-of-the-ring bullshit.

 

Taue really doesn't look to them like a better candidate than those guys.

 

I don't think any of them warrant being in, so as I keep saying... the argument of Them vs Taue isn't compelling to me. Advocating weak candidates to me is an utter waste of time.

 

I tend to think the same thing on Old Timers picks, which is a reason I've never advocated Orville Brown. I don't put any effort into shooting him down, and luckily Dave never asked me during the whole Brown Debate what I thought. But if someone like Steve asked me whether he should be in, my comment was along the lines of not being enthused about him. I mean, maybe if someone had crafted the argument that he was the Jerry Lawler of the 40s, I might find it interesting to look at it on that level and think about it more. But that wasn't an argument being put forward: it was that he was a pretty major guy... and that doesn't really strike me as compelling at all. Please pimp some major guys to me.

 

John

[jdw]

By the way it sounds weird today but three decades ago Negro Navarro was considered the 3rd best worker from Los Misioneros de la Muerte. Who, by the way, should be in the WON HOF but I have never pushed for them because I know they have no chance of getting in. Maybe someday but right now it would only dilute the chances for the current crop.

Push them. You and Steve should put your heads together to start getting in some of the major Trios. There are at least three that should be considered hard: Misioneros de la Muerte, Dinamitas and Brazos.

 

I mean for fucks sake... if the Freebirds, MX and Road Warriors can get in, and the R'n'R are consistently high on the list, then Lucha trios need to get looked at.

[jdw]

Does Taue get the big show retirement boost next year? By Dave's logic, enough voters may have forgotten or never knew that Taue was difficult to work with and just see his snowflake list of doom and vote him in. Think of him as the anti-Maeda.

Maybe Dave does such a poor bio on him that people read it as a HOF Candidate bio, and in he goes!

 

 

I agree that he hasn't got the Dome shows, but he was in the semi-final/main event of close to 50 Budokan Hall shows, which could be spun positively if you wanted to.

It would be interesting spin. I doubt it would be successful, unless voters are really stupid. They weren't terribly bright on Sasaki's Dome & Big Arena shows, but it's the Dome aspect of that which people were goofy about. Taue just doesn't have that. It's a reason Jun has an major edge over Taue.

 

 

The problem with Japan is that all the good candidates are already in and we're left with a lot of weak/borderline cases, and the only wrestler on the horizon who could develop into a strong HOF level wrestler is Kazuchika Okada who won't be eligible until 2023. If the rate of Japanese inductees stay the same (one a year on average over the last decade), then Taue actually has a pretty good shot at making it.

I would be surprised to see it.

[Bix]

I am extremely skeptical that Meltzer counts those X's as No votes.

I asked very specifically: If there's a category I feel I'm suitably informed about but feel that nobody is worthy, can I choose to do a no vote? He said yes, just put a X next to it.

[pantherwagner]

Apart from the Hall debate, I'd love to see someone do a historical Top 50 list for Mexican wrestlers. Or hell, a comprehensive book on Lucha for American audiences. There's footage from the last 25-30 years, but Lucha involves 80+ years of history, several weight classes and most of the information seems inaccessible.

Steve Sims is working on a book in English.

[pantherwagner]

By the way it sounds weird today but three decades ago Negro Navarro was considered the 3rd best worker from Los Misioneros de la Muerte. Who, by the way, should be in the WON HOF but I have never pushed for them because I know they have no chance of getting in. Maybe someday but right now it would only dilute the chances for the current crop.

Push them. You and Steve should put your heads together to start getting in some of the major Trios. There are at least three that should be considered hard: Misioneros de la Muerte, Dinamitas and Brazos.

 

I mean for fucks sake... if the Freebirds, MX and Road Warriors can get in, and the R'n'R are consistently high on the list, then Lucha trios need to get looked at.

 

I agree and it's a project for the future but not necessarily next year. I have always thought about the Freebirds angle to make people easily understand the influence, only that Misioneros were a better working trio, probably drew bigger numbers and changed an entire industry by turning the card layout from mostly tags to mostly trios.

[jdw]

Okay... so if they changed the entire business, why not next year? Those are some dudes who collective should have been in back in 1996. Why wait for 2015 rather than start the push in 2014?

 

One of the things that pissed me off about Saito going in is that it was another blow to Ishingundan:

 

"We'll, Choshu is in and Saito is in. Those are the big stars."

 

*jdw bangs head against wall*

 

 

No one is slowing down Dave handing out ballots like candy. We shouldn't slow down getting good candidates on the ballot, and making arguments for them.

 

I mean...

 

THE FUCKING ASSASSINS?!?!

 

 

John

[pantherwagner]

Okay... so if they changed the entire business, why not next year? Those are some dudes who collective should have been in back in 1996. Why wait for 2015 rather than start the push in 2014?

For me it's about strategy. Next year may be the last year or next to last year for very deserving candidates like Cien Caras, Villano III or Blue Panther to get in. Karloff Lagarde will probably get a good push once people realize all the things he did. Adding more strong candidates isn't going to help anyone, I believe. Also, creating a compelling case takes time going through magazines to put together feuds and results.

 

I mean, John, on paper you are absolutely right. It makes no sense to wait. But we are dealing with a number of "lucha qualified voters" who need to be taught about Villano III. I'm not sure why'd anyone vote for Atlantis but not Villano or Cien Caras, but obviously there's some research and case presentation to be done to sway the vote.

[ohtani's jacket]

How good were the Misioneros supposed to be work wise? From the footage we have, they don't look as good as the Brazos or Infernales.

[pantherwagner]

They were supposed to be as good as Los Infernales. It was a common contention point in the magazines in the early 80s. I agree with you that they don't look nearly as good but we have little Misioneros footage (and we'll never get a lot of it anyway). It's hard to believe there could ever be any trio as good as the Infernales anyway.

[jdw]

I like Suzuki more than nearly any active wrestler in Japan right now, but that "argument" is unreal.

The argument got worse, and two of the three who thought Suzuki was a dunker or good candidate never bothered to explain why.

 

This is the level of thought people put into voting...

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Alvarez interview with Steve Sims from today is interesting not only for his discussion of Wagner Jr and LA Park as candidates, but also because Sims talks about an interesting and seemingly complicated system for getting Lucha wrestlers and figures to vote for the HoF which apparently involves Sims acting as a courier for their votes??

[Jesse Ewiak]

Alvarez interview with Steve Sims from today is interesting not only for his discussion of Wagner Jr and LA Park as candidates, but also because Sims talks about an interesting and seemingly complicated system for getting Lucha wrestlers and figures to vote for the HoF which apparently involves Sims acting as a courier for their votes??

To be fair, I trust Sims over the Mexican postal service.