Hiroshi Tanahashi

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Anderson, 2/10/13

 

* This was pretty good. I don't know how good Anderson is usually, but this was the first time for me to see Tanahashi work a more traditional US pro-wrestling build. It's probably fair to say that Anderson provided most of the details since Tanahashi was really selling before launching into his signature stuff, but I'll say one thing for Tanahashi, he's versatile. Because he often gives the body of the match to his opponent he often winds up working his opponent's style and does a pretty good job of it most of the time.

 

* Where this fell apart for me a bit as the finishing stretch or what you might call the final quarter. I thought Anderson, who'd been pretty good up until this point, got caught up in the adrenaline rush of posing and forgot to sell fatigue. The New Japan style is predicated on move after move and close-ups of exhausted wrestlers gasping for air. It doesn't seem like Anderson has mastered that yet.

 

Tanahashi vs. Naito, 8/11/13

 

* Naito's a weird looking guy. I asked my wife if she knew what was up with this Naito guy and she said that she liked his style. His eyes remind me of Tatsuya Nakadai.

 

* This was a great match except for the part where they did forearm smash exchanges. Then they blew the spot directly after that. That as the first time I've thought that something in a Tanahashi match is awful.

 

* I would have marked out if Naito had won with that submission he had on Tanahashi, but it wasn't to be. There was a nice dragon suplex nearfall shortly afterwards that made up for it, but I would have praised Tanahashi to the moon if he'd tapped in that hold. The actual finish was good, mind you. Was that Kazuo Yamazaki marking out on commentary?

 

* Man, Tanahashi is not afraid to put people over. This was the first time I've seen Naito and I was sucked right in. I can't understand these people who say Tanahashi is a bad wrestler. His matches are almost always exciting. He can't work the mat, he doesn't have great strikes and he's not a details guy, but he's a good worker. A bit repetitive at times, but he's having an outstanding year in terms of maint events. This was a strong four and a half stars, MOTYC.

[tim]

Decided to rewatch that Tanahashi/Naito match because I had mixed thoughts coming out of it when I watched it live. I enjoyed aspects of the home stretch but 1. the G1 had kind of brought me back into the wrestling fold, I was liking it a whole lot and this was pretty much the last final matchup I wanted to see so I was sort of annoyed; and 2. Naito's truly egregious no selling of the leg annoyed me.

 

Watching it again knowing those two things are what they are, I liked it. I definitely don't think it's a MOTYC nor that it was really exceptional but it was fun main event New Japan stuff with a hot crowd and a big match feel. Naito's absurd level of no selling is still there though, definitely. I don't like to get too hung up on things like limb selling but when it's a very significant thematic feature of the match and you just don't sell at ALL unless the knee is just directly attacked then I think it's pretty bad. But for a long New Japan match I don't think this ever got dull. The opening stretch wasn't great or anything but it was fine, didn't seem to drag and they worked in a couple neat things.

 

One thing I think was actually impressive with this match was how long they went with that opening stretch before they really started throwing bombs; they threw enough stuff at each other so that you got the sense of fatigue and a hard fought match up, but it was like 15 minutes in before Tanahashi hit that first wrist clutch German and after that the big moves really came out and it felt like a big deal. Added a lot to the home stretch which again I enjoyed. Naito's no selling during it still annoyed me, especially how he puts his knees up to block the High Fly Flow in a huge spot and moments later is hitting a picture perfect bridging dragon suplex like it ain't a thing. Still, ignore that and it's a really fun finishing run.

 

Ignore the no selling (which this match really takes to another level) and it's very enjoyable but not any kind of MOTYC for me.

[ohtani's jacket]

The no selling doesn't really bother me as the limb work is only really there to fill in time and isn't that important. I suppose if Naito had consistently sold his injury the match may have been elevated to the kind of status that some people are giving Tanahashi's matches (i.e. all-time great match), but it doesn't bug me. I'm anti-limb work psychology to begin with, which is another reason why I don't care so much. I should also point out that I thought it was a MOTYC relative to 2013 and not some gold standard for MOTY. Since there has to be a MOTY for the concept to mean anything, I usually adjust my standards. Also, I only watched it once and will probably never watch it again and got caught up in the excitement along with the crowd. Tanahashi's not great at details. The only worker who's been any good at details so far has been Minoru Suzuki. Tanahashi and his contemporaries go for the big pop, but I think the layouts are generally good.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Ishii, 11/9/13

 

* I didn't care for this much. It seemed like they were trying to work a revenge/grudge match for Tanahashi's loss to Ishii in the G-1 as there was plenty of niggle and they "stiffed" each other a lot, but striking isn't Tanahashi's forte, and while he again showed his versatility by working a different style of match, it felt a bit forced, especially the crap they were saying to each other in Japanese.

 

* It didn't help that they started off with that forearm exchange spot. That is worse than any chop exchange ever. This one was particularly bad because it was blatant that Ishii was hitting Tanahashi's hair and not his jaw.

 

* Mostly, though, this suffered from not being as exciting as their G-1 match. There was no point in rehashing that bout, so they had the right idea with this match it just pointed too far in the direction of Tanahashi's limitations.

[Dylan Waco]

I love how this thread has developed, with OJ disliking the one Tanahashi match and performance that I actually thought was great.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'll watch it again in case I was in a funny mood.

[Mad Dog]

I don't know how good Anderson is usually

Anderson is good in a tag setting. As a singles wrestler he tends to be Mr. "I don't care if I only have 3 minutes, I'M GETTING ALL MY SHIT IN."

[NintendoLogic]

I find it interesting that OJ's thoughts on Tanahashi's matches are basically the same as my own. I'm pretty sure that's the first time he and I have seen eye to eye on a wrestler. It's also nice to see some pushback against the argument that Tanahashi/Suzuki was a carry job.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Okada, 10/13/13

 

* This had a solid albeit unspectacular build, but there were two things that were jarring for me. The first was that God awful spot where they were standing toe-to-toe and Tanahashi turned his head to face the crowd. Okada turned his head the same way and they soaked in the crowd applause, then they went right to left with the same synchronized bullshit. That was some weird Rock-like shit.

 

* The other spot that took me out of the match was when Tanahashi faked a knee injury for no discernible reason. Who plays possum that early in a match? It got a pop from the crowd and the commentator made a big deal out of it, but I don't think it came across the way Tanahashi intended because I sure as hell missed the point.

 

* This was a slow burner compared to some of their more highly rated bouts. Compared with their other slow burners (Tokyo Dome and the G-1 draw), I thought they made some headway on working a long bout. I appreciated that they tried new things. There was a greater focus on submissions as a possible finish and they teased both a countout and double knockout. There was the dreaded forearm exchange, but at least it led to some niggly armwork from Tanahashi.

 

* I liked that instead of putting his knees up to counter the High-Fly Flow Okada rolled to the outside (which led to Tanahashi's plancha), but they did the knees up counter later on. Yeah, it's pro-wrestling and all, but they use that spot too often, especially when Tanahashi never misses if his opponent is face down.

 

* I still love Okada's dropkicks and I liked that they factored into the finish. He looked pretty good in this match. Some of his stuff was a bit iffy, but the NJPW television production doesn't help at times. The finish was slightly botched, which stood out like a sore thumb since it was their counter sequence that a lot of people can't stomach, but setting that aside I thought the match did a really good job of presenting Okada as a worthy champion who withstood a strong challenge from the guy he's surpassed. It wasn't my favourite of their bouts, but I thought it achieved its goals. It was somewhere around the four star mark on my adjusted "this isn't as good as the stuff I grew up on, but I'm keeping an open mind about it" scale.

[jdw]

It was somewhere around the four star mark on my adjusted "this isn't as good as the stuff I grew up on, but I'm keeping an open mind about it" scale.

That might be my favorite line of the thread.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Ishii, 11/9/13

 

* I didn't care for this much. It seemed like they were trying to work a revenge/grudge match for Tanahashi's loss to Ishii in the G-1 as there was plenty of niggle and they "stiffed" each other a lot, but striking isn't Tanahashi's forte, and while he again showed his versatility by working a different style of match, it felt a bit forced, especially the crap they were saying to each other in Japanese.

 

* It didn't help that they started off with that forearm exchange spot. That is worse than any chop exchange ever. This one was particularly bad because it was blatant that Ishii was hitting Tanahashi's hair and not his jaw.

 

* Mostly, though, this suffered from not being as exciting as their G-1 match. There was no point in rehashing that bout, so they had the right idea with this match it just pointed too far in the direction of Tanahashi's limitations.

I liked this a good bit more on re-watch. I still think it didn't do Tanahashi any favours by exposing his striking, but the match moved on from strike exchanges and so will I. I'm not sure this was better than most of Tanahashi's matches psychology-wise. Ishii had some nice little touches where he'd cut off Tanahashi's signature stuff, much like Minoru Suzuki, and I liked his selling, particularly the way he took the bump off that released suplex, but if you're being a stickler then this was very much a bout where they went down one avenue, took a right and went down another. Tanahashi worked over Ishii's legs, got some purchase on the Texas Clover Leaf and then it was off doing suplexes and lariats and High Fly Flows where they'd sell the impact well but pop up to attempt their next finisher. I can ignore that sort of stuff if the crowd is into it and it's not like I'm watching this stuff to get anything of real substance, I just thought the finishing stretch wasn't much different than your standard Tanahashi match.

[Dylan Waco]

There is no way in hell I"m going to spend the next few weeks rewatching Tanahashi matches I thought were boring-to-okay on first watch, but what I liked about the second Ishii match was that it felt like an ace working like a true ace. I'm not sure that makes sense, but it was a case where i thought he gave his opponent just enough, without completely falling of the cliff into Angleism and/or without going full blown ridiculous in trying to sell how "equal" the obviously lesser opponent was. I think the pacing of the match was strong and his selling and timing felt like an essential part of what they were going for. I didn't really like the abandoning of the legwork, but I forgave it because the match had much less bad and/or annoying Tanahashi offense than his average match. I also sort of disagree with you on the strikes, because I thought the most disengaging moment of the entire year in a "big match" that I actually liked was in their first match where Tanahashi was throwing forearms in the corner that wouldn't crack an egg.

[ohtani's jacket]

I thought I'd say my final piece on Tanahashi.

 

If you compare him with a wrestler like Misawa he comes off second best in every category. Misawa had a command over his offence that allowed him to establish himself as the man both early in a match and in crunch time. And his selling went places Tanahashi doesn't go, as Misawa would take you right to the brink of an all-time great champion losing. If all the world's a stage then Misawa's was a bit more epic than most. Tanahashi doesn't have the aura of a New Japan legend either. He doesn't have the same fire as a Choshu or Hashimoto. You could argue that those workers' charisma wouldn't play to the kind of houses New Japan draws, but then again if Tanahashi had the aura of a Hashimoto perhaps they'd be drawing bigger houses. In any event, I can see the argument that he doesn't live up to past champions.

 

His lineage is more along the lines of a Fujinami or Mutoh than the guys who defined the ace role. But he is a decent worker. He can't work the mat, his strikes aren't very good and he's not a details guy, but he's good at moving a match forward. I think he realises he's nothing special on the mat, so instead of spending large chunks of the match in boring holds he tends to move briskly through the build to each match and get to the meat and potatoes of what he's good at, which is dropping bombs and working near falls. Some workers like to control a match and use the same patterns to the extent that a formula develops, but Tanahashi tends to give the build to his opponent so that if he's wrestling Okada it feels like he's working an Okada style match, and if he's working Suzuki it feels like he's working a Suzuki style match, and so on. That's very different to say an Akira Hokuto or Aja Kong. But I don't think this means he's getting carried in the matches that his critics like. It's just the way he works.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with his offence. He likes to work light, but apart from that I think his move set is fine. He doesn't have any one particular outstanding hold or maneuver, but he has enough suplex and dive variations to produce the kind of excitement he's shooting for. The only thing I really hate is the oft mentioned forearm exchange and his shitty posing. His lock up stance is a bit annoying at times as well.

 

The problem is that he's massively overrated by Meltzer and others. Why this is I'm not sure. For whatever reason, the timing is right for a new workrate fave. The things that are said about Tanahashi and the Okada series are like Meltzer being drunk on a cocktail of Kurt Angle and Edge. Unfortunately, this sort of championing creates a backlash against a guy who is basically working hard and trying to have good matches. I told myself I wouldn't hold the hype against him when I started this mini-project because it's ridiculously unfair to expect him to be one of the best workers ever. I can't say I became a fan, but I wouldn't turn my nose up at seeing him again or watching him live. Of all Dave's favourites with annoying traits like Toyota etc, I thought Tanahadhi was genuinely one of the least offensive. No he doesn't have brilliant psychology but neither do favourites like Cena, Daniel Bryan or CM Punk if we were to examine them a little harder. I mean I watched the Cena/Bryan SummerSlam match while watching these Tanahashi bouts and there were some cool spots, but it wasn't as dramatic as Tanahashi's biggest matches this year. The arc to Tanahashi's big matches is generally strong and you feel like you've watched a contest.

 

So, better than the pretty boy wannabe rock star he looks like but not an all-time great. I'd rather watch him than all but a few workers in the history of New Japan, but too much has been made of him as both a great worker and a poor one.

[ohtani's jacket]

There is no way in hell I"m going to spend the next few weeks rewatching Tanahashi matches I thought were boring-to-okay on first watch, but what I liked about the second Ishii match was that it felt like an ace working like a true ace.

When I think of aces, I think of guys who drew the loudest cheers on Dome shows like Tsuruta in 1990 and Misawa in '95. New Japan doesn't seem big enough to have an ace, at least not in the true drawing sense. To me he's just the best worker in the company, or the guy positioned as the best worker in the company. Calling him an ace is a bit like calling Dynamite Kansai or Kaoru Ito an ace. It doesn't really work without a big enough stage.

[Jimmy Redman]

The problem is that he's massively overrated by Meltzer and others. Why this is I'm not sure. For whatever reason, the timing is right for a new workrate fave. The things that are said about Tanahashi and the Okada series are like Meltzer being drunk on a cocktail of Kurt Angle and Edge. Unfortunately, this sort of championing creates a backlash against a guy who is basically working hard and trying to have good matches. I told myself I wouldn't hold the hype against him when I started this mini-project because it's ridiculously unfair to expect him to be one of the best workers ever.

Basically this. I doubt there would be nearly as much "backlash" to him if he weren't pimped all over the joint as being this amazing, best of all time worker having the greatest matches of all time. Saying things like that leads people to react because they have something to latch onto and disagree with. Me being one of them. I've said it numerous times but I don't have that much of a problem with Tanahashi. I think he's fine and is capable of having a great match. And if nobody was talking him up to ridiculous levels, I'd probably be content to say something like that and be done with it. But it's when you see people giving him such outlandish praise that you can't possibly agree with, it makes you examine him in greater detail to a) try and see what the fuss is about, and point out his flaws to explain why he isn't the greatest wrestler of all time. And then you end up as a "hater" because you're focusing on the negatives.

[NintendoLogic]

I think OJ's assessment is spot-on. Tanahashi's matches aren't going to have a bunch of cool moments, but they will have a well-structured and satisfying narrative arc. It seems to me that a lot of those who are anti-Tanahashi tend to be more interested in Stuff than in structure, which is where I think a lot of the disconnect comes from.

[Dylan Waco]

I think OJ's assessment is spot-on. Tanahashi's matches aren't going to have a bunch of cool moments, but they will have a well-structured and satisfying narrative arc. It seems to me that a lot of those who are anti-Tanahashi tend to be more interested in Stuff than in structure, which is where I think a lot of the disconnect comes from.

I would like for you to elaborate on this point.

[Matt D]

I'm not watching this stuff unless it's for a zany Crossfire podcast with Johnny.

[tim]

It seems to me that a lot of those who are anti-Tanahashi tend to be more interested in Stuff than in structure

I think this is to some degree the case. At the same time I'm sometimes at a loss in really understanding what Tanahashi fans mean by "structure" and how they ascribe some kind of highly positive quality to Tanahashi just for working the general "epic match" blueprint that has been around for ages. It's actually something that really struck me back when I started watching Tanahashi matches in 2009, especially his much lauded match v. Nakamura that year. It struck me as something I'd be impressed with if I were unfamiliar with main event style puroresu (which isn't meant to take a condescending tone or anything); it had the opening mat work into a longer but low key body of the match and then jumped off into the hot homestretch. But, I mean, a lot of matches do that. A lot of good matches do that, a lot of okay matches do that and a lot of boring matches do that. What matters is how those segments are worked, not that they're there. A lot of these super pimped New Japan matches feel to me like shells of epic main event style matches. They have that broad structure but they don't do anything interesting with it; the opening matwork isn't good, the middle move trading/control segments are just there and not worked in an interesting way and the home stretch is pretty by the numbers. I don't see what great quality there is in a guy working the basic structure of an epic main event if he can't do the "stuff" that makes it interesting. I guess some people can like "epic main event match" for the sake of it but I've seen it, and to me for something to be great it has to do something interesting.

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah I'm not really getting the idea of Tanahashi as some master of structure because he has main events that go opening exchanges-body part middle third-bomb throwing stretch. Like, all main events go like that. That's just getting things right on the most basic level.

 

When he has middle thirds that usually cause me to drift off in boredom, I'm not sure that is a great example of an effective structure. And, as has already been pointed out, let alone actually doing anything with it.

[ohtani's jacket]

They have that broad structure but they don't do anything interesting with it; the opening matwork isn't good, the middle move trading/control segments are just there and not worked in an interesting way and the home stretch is pretty by the numbers. I don't see what great quality there is in a guy working the basic structure of an epic main event if he can't do the "stuff" that makes it interesting. I guess some people can like "epic main event match" for the sake of it but I've seen it, and to me for something to be great it has to do something interesting.

I don't disagree with any of this, but I think the flipside to Tanahashi not doing anything interesting is that he doesn't really do anything poorly. He's wrestling a generic New Japan main event style for an audience that pops for that sort of thing.

 

One thing I'll say for him is that I think the "shell of an epic main event" may work in his favour. Towards the end of the 90s Japanese wrestling became far too dense. Workers were trying far too hard to fill in their matches with interesting "stuff." They'd set the bar so high that the only way to outdo themselves was to go longer and add more spots. I expected Tanahashi to take this to another extreme like modern indy workers, so I was pleasantly surprised by his pared back style. Mileage may vary on how exciting he is, but it wouldn't be fair to accuse him of excess.

 

As for his match layouts, the hardest thing to get right in any discipline are the basics. I think he has a good sense of match structure. It's really up to his opponent to fill in the details, because in the average Tanahashi build he's selling. And it's not like he's wrestling other all-time greats. When the best opponent you face is Minoru Suzuki that's not much of a receipe for greatness. Misawa wouldn't really be Misawa if he'd been feuding with Ogawa.

 

I get bored easily during wrestling, but for me Tanahashi has good rhythm and doesn't labour with elements he's no good at. If your matwork's no good, don't do it. Tanahashi's matwork is just standard, but he doesn't bore me to death with it like Mutoh or Chono, who had too much confidence in their wrestling ability. I'm not going to penalise a guy for recognising his weaknesses. Strikes are Tanahashi's weakest area. He should just stick to chops and slaps to the face.

 

Ultimately, I see him as a Bon Jovi song. Big chorus with a big outro. Gets stuck in your head from time to time and fun to sing at karaoke, but not something you're going to claim as your favourite music. The songwriting is solid, but musically uninteresting for the most part. There's a place for Tanahashi like there's a place for Ishikawa and Ikeda. Again, the trouble is his fans, who are arguing that Bon Jovi are The Beatles or The Rolling Stones or something.

[Timbo Slice]

What's the point of harping in "Stuff" when Tanahashi's "structure" isn't all that good in the first place?

[ohtani's jacket]

What's the point in harping on about structure when his structure's not that bad?

[NintendoLogic]

It seems to me that a lot of those who are anti-Tanahashi tend to be more interested in Stuff than in structure

I think this is to some degree the case. At the same time I'm sometimes at a loss in really understanding what Tanahashi fans mean by "structure" and how they ascribe some kind of highly positive quality to Tanahashi just for working the general "epic match" blueprint that has been around for ages. It's actually something that really struck me back when I started watching Tanahashi matches in 2009, especially his much lauded match v. Nakamura that year. It struck me as something I'd be impressed with if I were unfamiliar with main event style puroresu (which isn't meant to take a condescending tone or anything); it had the opening mat work into a longer but low key body of the match and then jumped off into the hot homestretch. But, I mean, a lot of matches do that. A lot of good matches do that, a lot of okay matches do that and a lot of boring matches do that. What matters is how those segments are worked, not that they're there. A lot of these super pimped New Japan matches feel to me like shells of epic main event style matches. They have that broad structure but they don't do anything interesting with it; the opening matwork isn't good, the middle move trading/control segments are just there and not worked in an interesting way and the home stretch is pretty by the numbers. I don't see what great quality there is in a guy working the basic structure of an epic main event if he can't do the "stuff" that makes it interesting. I guess some people can like "epic main event match" for the sake of it but I've seen it, and to me for something to be great it has to do something interesting.

 

I think you're really selling Tanahashi short here. If working the epic match blueprint is such a simple thing, why are so few wrestlers any good at it? My guess is that 90% or so of the guys currently working in Japan would be unwatchable if they were regularly working matches of 30 minutes or more. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, my experience mirrors OJ's. Based on where the praise was coming from and my experiences with modern Japanese wrestling, I expected Tanahashi's matches to be a ridiculous orgy of finisher kick-outs and head drops and fighting spirit no-selling. I was pleasantly surprised when that wasn't the case. Tanahashi's not an all-time great, but when the modern Japanese scene is littered with worthless loads like Suwama, he can't help but stand out.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura, 1/4/14

 

-- I liked this well enough. It wasn't one of the more memorable Tanahashi matches in recent times, but I liked how they went out and wrestled a normal match instead of trying to work some sort of drawn out Tokyo Dome epic. I can see how it mightn't have been special enough for a main event, but as a stand alone match it was an easy watch.

 

-- Nakamura is kind of weird. His entrance reminded me of Prince if Prince were a pro-wrestler, though I'm sure if Prince were a pro-wrestler he'd be a whole lot cooler. His pre-match schtick is almost like he's trying to do the weirdest poses he can think of. Still, it's better than Tanahashi's air guitar shit, I suppose.

 

-- The early going was the usual inoffensive stuff. Tanahashi sold his ribs for the majority of the match in so far as putting your hand in front of your ribs is selling them. They cut a good pace the opening stanza, which is typical for a Tanahashi match.

 

-- I actually didn't mind the forearm exchange here. I don't know if it's because it works better in a Tokyo Dome setting or because Nakamura was great at overpowering Tanahashi, but the best spot in the entire match was that knee to the back of the head.

 

-- That blown powerbomb spot really took me out of the match, but really the entire finishing stretch was muddled. Tanahashi had an unnecessary run of offence around that powerbomb sequence and went to the texas clover leaf too many times. It didn't help that Nakamura doesn't have a lot of big offence, but the finishing stretches are usually better in Tanahashi matches.

 

-- All told probably a three star match.