Steve Yohe's Top 100 Project

[NintendoLogic]

Wasn't business down in a lot of areas in the late 70s?

[KrisZ]

Chicana was on my list but didn't make the cut.

[JerryvonKramer]

Wasn't business down in a lot of areas in the late 70s?

Not in New York. Dory was early 70s.

[Dylan Waco]

Thesz was a huge star. He wasn't in the league of the guys I mentioned. Thesz hated Rogers and said himself (in thinly veiled ways) that Rogers was a bigger star than him. Thesz was more like his eras Flair, than his eras Hogan or Londos. He had great longevity and I think that's his best case for the top spot, but then it's not like Hogan or Londos were weak in that department.

 

On Bruno he was a driving force attraction. Rocca is the closest comparison in the New York market, but Bruno was hot all over the territory and was hot WAY later than people remember. Hell a lot of Backlund's run was co-featured with Bruno feuding against guys like Larry and Patera to sellout houses all over the territory. Bruno was a huge draw for decades.

[NintendoLogic]

Not in New York.

So why didn't New York experience the same decline in business that other parts of the country experienced? Was the WWWF title just that over? Or did Backlund bring something to the table? Or was it Bruno still being in the de facto main event? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think.

 

Dory was early 70s.

I wasn't talking about Dory.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bruno is still tremendously over in the shows I've seen and ... well fuck, he's made me a Bruno mark so his status as a draw during Backlund's reign can't be overstated.

 

But my feeling is that the reasons for NYC staying hot when other places were dying is about more than just wrestling. Without even getting into the economy, just the pool of people they are drawing from is that much bigger and more geographically dense than anywhere else. The impression I also get is that wrestling was built into people's routines. That's probably the ultimate a promoter can look to achieve.

 

I know about The Sheik killing Detroit, but why did LA die?

[jdw]

IMO Backlund was a bigger "star" than Dory because Bob was the main guy in the biggest markets for 6 years. That's a long run of working on top in New York City, Philly, Boston, DC, & Baltimore and I'm sure if you ask most guys that watched wrestling currently between 35-50 if they knew the names of Backlund or Dory...they would know Backlund.

 

Sure Dory was NWA champ for 4 years and went everywhere but I don't know if his penetration was as strong as Bob.

This is a bit tricky.

 

The states (and DC) that Bob regularly defended the title in accounted for 24.1% of the US population in the 1980 Census.

 

Dory's account for more than that in the 1970 Census. It's hard to put an exact finger on it since:

 

* we don't have close to a full record for Dory

* we have a pretty exact understanding of the WWF's territory pre-Expansion

 

Pretty obvious there

 

* things split up tricky

 

One defense in SF that's on the list, while more work in Los Angeles. So how do you split up those 19M in California.

 

Colorado is similar: the NWA seems to have a corner of the state in Colorado Springs, while Denver is AWA country.

 

Still, you don't have to work very hard to scale over the 24.1% of the WWF.

 

On top of that, Dory as Champ seemed to work quite a bit more of Canada than Backlund worked as Champ (pretty much Toronto).

 

Japan is interesting, but Dory was a bigger star.

[Dylan Waco]

Yohe just posted this at Classics:

 

I'm never going to do another project like this because I'll never be able to get top people like this to participate again. A lot of these voters were in it because they were my friends. I don't think I could ever pull strings like this again.

 

A large percentage of the really smart wrestling minds can't make the judgements need to do the list or be willing to strip themselves bare so people can criticize how they think...or think the idea of a list is...goofy...and not worth the time loss. There are a lot of reasons for not wanting to play with this list & it's understandable. Some are just not simple minded enough.

 

Before the project started and after, I believe that Jim Londos was the greatest wrestling star of all time. Nothing that took place changed my mind. Londos was #1 on 12 lists...but that wasn't enough support to over come one ballot having him at #63 and the respect people have for Lou Thesz.

 

Someone who learned there history thru the book FALLGUYS, may think the little pretty boy was #63 and didn't deserve support. But no one was going to list Lou Thesz #63 or #51. And people, who vote for Londos at #1, will have Thesz at #2 or #3.

 

That being said, it was a shock when I realized Londos wasn't going to be #1. But I set the rules & I was going to have to live with the limitations of the system. If we had a larger sample of voters, maybe it would have worked better...but you find the type people needed. They are hard to find.

 

I could have gotten some insiders...but lets face it...they would have been voting for their next door neighbor. I'll stick with fans. Or people I still consider as fans with objectivity intact.

 

I thought the voters I got were great. All major guys, who for the most part had done major work or showed they were worthy.

 

That being said...this was my project...and I made one judgement call...for the integrity of the list. I'm not going to say what that was...but I did it. If some math genius figures something out...sorry, but I'm not talking about it. Find another list. I made the rules and I picked the people and anything wrong is my fault.

 

All in all, it's a good list that incorporates all the country's, styles and time periods. Maybe it doesn't pin point the #1 spot like it should, but the top 10 or even 15 spots are pretty well defined. By the end, most of the lists had the same groupings of people thru out. To say it was impossible to put this type of list together is wrong. There does seem to be, if you have the knowledge, a way to figure or think it out. And a lot of the thinkers came to the same conclusions.

 

There are a number of names on the bottom part that I had to look up. Old time shooter and hookers from around the world. You can learn from it.

 

I'm a little upset that it didn't print as well as what I had on paper. The WC machine removes spaces. I'm sick of computers in general.

 

Very happy we got Dave. I can't post his list. He'd have to do it or tell me he wanted it posted. It's the same with everyone. It was normal. Well thought out. All the right names.

 

I was happy with the treatment of the Japanese wrestlers. If it was off, it wasn't by much. Lucha did well, but Mexico has a wide range of talent. Europe, I don't know...we tried. Present day is about right. It is, what it is.

 

Considering the age he wrestled in and his style. Muldoon did great. I didn't see anything wrong with #36.

 

Thanks to everyone. It was fun.

 

So as I said the ballots will not be made public unless someone wants their ballot to be public.

 

Also that comment about him making a judgment call for the "integrity" of the list is cryptic. I really hope Steve didn't take Hogan off of his own ballot to keep him from finishing first.

[jdw]

Steve wouldn't have had a problem with Hogan winning.

[Dylan Waco]

Steve wouldn't have had a problem with Hogan winning.

That was my initial thought to, but if you read the thread, it's an odd thing to say in the context of the conversation over there.

[jdw]

It is, but it's also Steve: he'll say something odd out of left field from time to time.

[mookeighana]

All Ballots

Lou Thesz (1), Jim Londos (2), Ed “Strangler” Lewis (4), Frank Gotch (5), Bruno Sammartino (6), Andre The Giant (8), Rikidozan (9)

 

85%+ of Ballots

Hulk Hogan (3), Ric Flair (7), Buddy Rogers (10), El Santo (11), Antonio Inoki (12), Steve Austin (13), Joe Stecher (14), Gorgeous George (16), Verne Gagne (17), The Rock (18), George Hackenschmidt (19), Harley Race (20), Antonino Rocca (21), Nick Bockwinkel (22), Dory Funk Jr (23), Mil Mascaras (24), Stanislaus Zbyszko (26), Terry Funk (27), The Destroyer (29), Edouard Carpentier (33), Freddie Blassie (37), Pat O’Connor (47), Johnny Valentine (52)

 

70-85% of Ballots

Shohei Baba (15), Dusty Rhodes (25), Gene Kiniski (28), Mitsuharu Misawa (30), Wild Bill Longson (31), Jack Brisco (32), Jumbo Tsuruta (34), Killer Kowalski (35), William Muldoon (36), Randy Savage (38), Stan Hansen (39), The Sheik (40), Bret Hart (42), Whipper Watson (43), Yvon Robert (44), John Cena (45), Dick The Bruiser (46), The Undertaker (50), Ray Stevens (55), Bobo Brazil (57), Bob Backlund (61), Keiji Muto (62), Danny Hodge (78)

 

55%-70% of Ballots

Farmer Burns (41), Gus Sonnenberg (48), Shawn Michaels (49), Kenta Kobashi (50), Blue Demon (53), John Pesek (54), Earl Caddock (56), Bruiser Brody (58), Tiger Mask I (Sayama) (59), Riki Choshu (60), Maurice Tillet (63), Genichiro Tenryu (64), Akira Maeda (66), Bronko Nagurski (67), Evan “Strangler” Lewis (68), Toshiaki Kawada (69), Fritz Von Erich (70), Perro Aguayo (72), Tatsumi Fujinami (73), Big Van Vader (76), Ed Don George (79), Abdullah The Butcher (81), Triple H (85)

 

40%-55% of Ballots

The Great Gama (65), Tom Jenkins (71), Don Leo Jonathan (74), Roddy Piper (75), Jerry Lawler (77), Dick Shikat (80), Billy Robinson (82), Kurt Angle (83), Ray Steele (84), El Hijo Del Santo (86), Shinya Hashimoto (89), Ricky Steamboat (90), Orville Brown (92), Mad Dog Vachon (92), Wladek Zbyszko (94), Billy Graham (95), Hans Schmidt (96), Rey Misterio Jr (98), Henri De Glane (100), Pat Patterson (103), Mildred Burke (106), Mick Foley (110), Wahoo McDaniel (140)

 

25%-40% of Ballots

El Solitario (87), Frank Sexton (88), El Canek (91), The Crusher (97), Gory Guerrero (101), Dara Singh (102), Karl Gotch (103), Bill Miller (105), Everett Marshall (107), Sandor Szabo (108), Jushin Liger (111), Dynamite Kid (113), Jim Browning (114), Danno O’Mahoney (116), Mick McManus (117), Eddie Guerrero (119), Nobuhiko Takada (120), Enrique Torres (121), Chris Benoit (122), Col. J. H. McLaughlin (123), Eddie Graham (125), Steve Casey (126), Brock Lesnar (133), Bert Assirati (137), Pedro Morales (147), Sting (163), Ted Dibiase (168)

 

15%-25% of Ballots

Ray Mendoza (99), Joe Savoldi (108), Ad Santel (112), Toots Mondt (115), Primo Carnera (118), Rene Guajardo (124), Negro Casas (127), Bobby Managoff (132), Villano III (133), Cavernario Galindo (137), Man Mountain Dean (139), Fred Beell (141), Atsushi Onita (142), Manami Toyota (142), Masahiro Chono (145), Wilbur Snyder (147), Danny Mc Shain (150), Duncan C. Ross (151), Big Daddy (Shirley Crabtree) (152), Dos Caras (153), Bill Watts (153), Cien Caras (157), Ivan Koloff (157), Joe Acton (159), Dr Ben Roller (161), Mark Lewin (163), Don Eagle (165), Ernie Ladd (167), Clarence Eklund (169), Chigusa Nagayo (173), Dump Matsumoto (181), CM Punk (184), Hiroshi Tanahashi (188), Pepper Gomez (194), Earl McCready (203)

[tofu_chipmunk]

The judgment call clearly was putting the points for a Giant Machine vote into Andre's total instead of Baba's.

[Al]

I really like this list. You're going to end up with a handful of screwy opinions, but that's the nature of the beast.

[Jmare007]

Do any of you all (Dylan? Kris Z?) have any big write-ups on Londos? I knew he was a big deal and all, but I'm (personally) kind of surprised to see him so high. Not at all saying he shouldn't be, I just haven't had any exposure to his career.

This. I knew Londos was big but not THAT big, would love to read more about him.

[Death From Above]

A lot of older names I'm honestly not that well versed on from this list, but still (or because of that maybe) interesting.

[pantherwagner]

Some thoughts:

 

I think it's a pretty good list. Lucha did better than I imagined.

I didn't vote for Gorgeous George or Antonino Rocca and that was an oversight. I tried to go through other people's lists to make sure I didn't leave out anybody but I guess I missed some.

I voted for Londos, Lewis and Gotch but no other early era guys because I don't know much about them. I have read about them but I can't rate them historically. I didn't feel like giving a random number to Stecher or whomever just for the sake of it.

 

I tried to be fair but ranking 100 people from different eras and styles is hard. I put some thought on the list and went back and forth for a few days on some names. To be honest there's very few people I'd have done this type of list for.

 

Whoever didn't vote for Hogan should have his vote eliminated from the final count. I mean, come on.

 

OJ: I didn't vote for Chicana because he is a great worker and I enjoyed watching him but there are a lot of lucha names I'd consider over him in a list of stars. I'd vote for him in a list of 100 workers or favourite wrestlers.

[mookeighana]

 

More data on the top 21 wrestlers (top 15 voting) was released.

I updated my website: https://sites.google.com/site/chrisharringt...P-FIFTEEN-RANKS

 

Jim Londos has 23 votes here; his remaining 3 votes yielded 124 points = 41 points/voter = 60th place. avg.

Hulk Hogan has 22 votes here; his remaining 3 votes yielded 175 points = 58 points/voter = 43rd place. avg.

Ed Lewis has 24 votes here; his remaining 2 votes yielded 45 points = 23 points/voter = 79th place. avg.

Frank Gotch has 23 votes here; his remaining 3 votes yielded 113 points = 38 points/voter = 63rd place avg.

Rikidozan has 22 votes here; his remaining 4 votes yielded 163 points = 41 points/voter = 60th place avg.

El Santo has 21 votes here; his remaining 2 votes yielded 130 points = 65 points/voter = 36th place avg.

Ric Flair has 20 votes here; his remaining 5 votes yielded 328 points = 66 points/voter = 35th place avg.

Andre The Giant has 21 votes here; his remaining 5 votes yielded 302 points = 60 points/voter = 41th place avg.

Bruno Sammartino has 20 votes here; his remaining 6 votes yielded 383 points = 64 points/voter = 37th place avg.

Buddy Rogers has 19 votes here; his remaining 6 votes yielded 359 points = 60 points/voter = 41th place avg.

Steve Austin has 17 votes here; his remaining 6 votes yielded 407 points = 68 points/voter = 33th place avg.

Joe Stecher has 15 votes here; his remaining 9 votes yielded 580 points = 64 points/voter = 37th place avg.

Antonio Inoki has 14 votes here; his remaining 10 votes yielded 701 points = 70 points/voter = 31th place avg.

George Hackenschmidt has 9 votes here; his remaining 15 votes yielded 913 points = 61 points/voter = 40th place avg.

Shohei Baba has 9 votes here; his remaining 13 votes yielded 991 points = 76 points/voter = 25th place avg.

Gorgeous George has 8 votes here; his remaining 15 votes yielded 1031 points = 69 points/voter = 32th place avg.

Verne Gagne has 8 votes here; his remaining 16 votes yielded 1049 points = 66 points/voter = 35th place avg.

The Rock has 7 votes here; his remaining 16 votes yielded 1143 points = 71 points/voter = 30th place avg.

Harley Race has 4 votes here; his remaining 19 votes yielded 1278 points = 67 points/voter = 34th place avg.

Antonino Rocca has 2 votes here; his remaining 22 votes yielded 1386 points = 63 points/voter = 38th place avg.

[Clayton Jones]

Just seeing this for the first time, and one back to back ranking that really sticks out like a sore thumb to me is Verne over the Rock. Maybe the bias of Verne being the top draw in his own sandbox is making me underrate his historic significance, but he seems a bit higher than I'd expect in general. What's the consensus around here?

[Ricky Jackson]

Verne was one of the bigger stars of the 50s, as US champ for Kohler in Chicago, which is often forgotten as he is usually just considered Mr. AWA.

[Dylan Waco]

I think there were also guys who clearly got extra points for promoting

[tofu_chipmunk]

The big head-scratcher for me in terms of wrestlers that didn't make the top 100 is Nobuhiko Takada, who didn't even finish very close to the top 100 despite being on 10 lists. Any explanation as to the rationale for his not making the list?