Smackdown Six Era

[Migs]

I blew through all this stuff a few months ago and I just don't get the hate. I think the Royal Rumble match hasn't aged perfectly, but the meat of that era is all those awesome tag matches, and they're all still awesome.

[fxnj]

I blew through all this stuff a few months ago and I just don't get the hate. I think the Royal Rumble match hasn't aged perfectly, but the meat of that era is all those awesome tag matches, and they're all still awesome.

Yeah, I have no idea why people are focusing at Angle/Benoit RR when that came after all the stuff that gave the era its name. If people are in the mood to be revisionists and call it a "failed Heyman project" it might be a better idea to instead tell me how shitty the No Mercy and Survivor Series tags are.

[Jimmy Redman]

I do not agree that the Angle vs Benoit match at the Rumble was garbage. It is an excellent match that stands out from the pack and has excellent psychology. Like or dislike the match according to one's current thoughts and feelings but the match itself is excellent psychology for Angle/Benoit/numerous fans/myself and stands out from the pack from about 99% of the matches out there in every department in what makes wrestling great. This is wrestling the way I love it.

 

Unforgiven was also genius. Wrestlemania was very smart too.

What was so great about the psychology of Angle-Benoit? I fact, what even was the psychology of Angle-Benoit? Apart from "two über workrate guys workrate the fuck out of each other."

 

My memory of the match is that the psychology is non-existent. They just take turns doing moves, lots of moves. There's no story involved in any of it, and even the moves themselves werent that novel or interesting. they just did stuff. Going into my most recent viewing of it, I figured the overkill finisher-fest would piss me off the most. In fact, that was the best part of the match because at least it was exciting. Everything up until that point was just...doing moves, and not in a very interesting way.

 

I get liking the match, and I especially get liking the match if you're into the Kurt Angle, go go go, let's do lots of MOVES style, and liking it for its athleticism. I do not get the claim that the match has excellent psychology.

 

3)The beginning of the Rumble match was pretty good although not as legendary as say Unforgiven's starting., etc.

 

I just watched Unforgiven and yeah, the opening is really good. The first half of this match is probably the best thing they've managed to do in the ring as opponents.

 

Unforgiven for me fell off from a really strong opening into a...good second half. There was a point where they kind of went "BAM, let's start trading triple Germans!" (as there always seems to be in these matches) and it kind of took me down a little. There was also a point where Angle took the flipping German on his head (for the first time? one of the first times anyway sure) and died...and then was sprinting up the ropes to do his "surprise" top rope throw literally seconds later, which is the kind of thing that takes me out of a match. There are times when I don't mind that spot where it's clear that he's either had ample time to recover from whatever move it was, or he's playing possum until they get up there. Here where he blows off a death move far too quickly to pop up and do it, no thanks.

 

The second half was fine, again, but you talk about escalation and to me the way they escalate in matches...there's a veneer of artificiality to it. It's too simple, too...neat and tidy. It's like they have a checklist of The States of Escalation that they tick off as they go along:

 

- matwork

- start punching/brawling

- BAM German suplexes!

- diving headbutt/top rope leap/Angle Slam

- Crossface/Ankle Lock trading

- finish

 

It was just too organised, like their moves were ordered in a line from smallest to biggest. Matwork leads to clotheslines leads to Germans leads to headbutt/Angle Slam leads to submission finishers. I mean I'm not really leaving any moves or stretches of time out of this description, once you reach the BAM Germans threshold that's all there was, they just went from A to B to C in a line. If you look at a really good match that has a good sense of escalation about it, they're not so linear. Of course generally they make the same progression from opening stuff to bigger moves to finishers, but it's fleshed out a lot more, there are transitions. And when they get it right, they can hit a big move, then follow it up with something simple like a punch or chop or clothesline or rollup or whatever, and still make it feel like an escalation, through selling exhaustion, struggle and the impact of the move.

 

Angle just seems incapable of that. He hits a move and thinks the only way to top it and escalate the match is to hit a BIGGER one. Thats why you get those bad Angle matches with 37 finishers, because he uses a finisher mid-match for a pop, and then the only way he thinks he can go is up, so he hits 36 more.

 

The escalation is artificial, is what I'm saying. They're not telling the story of a match escalating through their body language or selling or anything else. They're telling it by hitting bigger moves now, so it MUST have escalated, right? I just find it a little manufactured, and the later Angle "TOP THIS" finisher-fests are just an extension of that.

 

I'm sure I'm coming off as more down on the match itself than I was. I liked it, and liked it more than the last time I watched it. I think last time I didn't really like the finish with the ropes for some reason, but seeing it again I think it was pretty clever and very well done, aside from Angle's shoulders visibly not being down for the pin. I liked the match on the whole, particularly the opening matwork, I just don't think it was a particularly great match. I agree the psychology of one-upmanship works, but I also think the psychology of the way they built the match was lacking. It's just not what I want out of a match.

 

I am going to end up watching the Rumble match soon as well. There are also TV matches from October, December and February, so I may just watch them all to see the match-to-match stuff.

[Kevin Ridge]

Like Matt D, I was also in attendance for Benoit versus Angle at Royal Rumble. I was going absolutely nuts while watching it live. It has to be my favorite match I've ever seen live from an excitement level. Can't remember thinking about Benoit's sharpshooter or there being too many German suplexes at the time. I'll admit it wasn't as outstanding on multiple viewings after but still a pretty darn good match to me. Strangely, I also don't have the desire to re-watch it at this time and been a few years since I've seen it last. The match might have been the last real time I was into a WWE match as my interest in the product lessened from 2003 on.

[Troy]

I recommend getting with Will on this topic. I will be soon if you know what I mean..

[rzombie1988]

I will never understand the criticism of the Smackdown Six era. I quit watching before that era began and when I went back and watched it for the Smarkschoice poll it was like "fuck, here is the kind of wrestling I was desperate for in '99." That era was better ring-wise than anything from the Monday Night Wars era and was probably the best TV wrestling since 1992 WCW. I don't get looking a gift horse in the mouth.

This place is the only place where I have ever seen criticism on it. It's just one of those, "let's shit on something that was popular to prove our wrestling smark superiority" deals.

 

I always considered Brock a member of the SD6. He was in too much good stuff not to be. He did good stuff with Benny, Rey, A-Train and Show.

[goodhelmet]

It's just one of those, "let's shit on something that was popular to prove our wrestling smark superiority" deals.

This is complete bullshit. There are plenty of detailed examples in here of why people do not like Kurt Angle. This is also a place where tons of people do not like Edge. Add the stink of Benoit and why would people praise it? That is three of the six guys who people may not enjoy. When they are in the majority of the matches, people are going to be cold to the product.

[Matt D]

This is the land of no dogma.

[rzombie1988]

It's just one of those, "let's shit on something that was popular to prove our wrestling smark superiority" deals.

This is complete bullshit. There are plenty of detailed examples in here of why people do not like Kurt Angle. This is also a place where tons of people do not like Edge. Add the stink of Benoit and why would people praise it? That is three of the six guys who people may not enjoy. When they are in the majority of the matches, people are going to be cold to the product.

 

Again, I've never seen hate for the SD6 until this thread. Even if you didn't like some of them for whatever oversmarked out reason, you still had Brock, Hardy, Show, Taijiri and others mixing with them to put on good performances.

 

What's the stink of Benoit in ring? That's the first I've ever heard of it.

 

I never liked Edge until the end of his run and even he performed very well in his role.

 

And on to Angle, the hate for him is honestly overblown and half there because of Meltzer's love for him. Pretty sure most of the people who rip on him haven't even watched him regularly for years, if ever. Reminds me a lot of the infamous HBK DVDVR thread where people were saying Snitsky was a better worker or the Tiger Mask is the worst wrestler ever propaganda.

[NintendoLogic]

I do not agree that the Angle vs Benoit match at the Rumble was garbage. It is an excellent match that stands out from the pack and has excellent psychology. Like or dislike the match according to one's current thoughts and feelings but the match itself is excellent psychology for Angle/Benoit/numerous fans/myself and stands out from the pack from about 99% of the matches out there in every department in what makes wrestling great. This is wrestling the way I love it.

 

Unforgiven was also genius. Wrestlemania was very smart too.

What was so great about the psychology of Angle-Benoit? I fact, what even was the psychology of Angle-Benoit? Apart from "two über workrate guys workrate the fuck out of each other."

 

My memory of the match is that the psychology is non-existent. They just take turns doing moves, lots of moves. There's no story involved in any of it, and even the moves themselves werent that novel or interesting. they just did stuff. Going into my most recent viewing of it, I figured the overkill finisher-fest would piss me off the most. In fact, that was the best part of the match because at least it was exciting. Everything up until that point was just...doing moves, and not in a very interesting way.

 

I get liking the match, and I especially get liking the match if you're into the Kurt Angle, go go go, let's do lots of MOVES style, and liking it for its athleticism. I do not get the claim that the match has excellent psychology.

 

I've talked a lot about this match in the past and I like to now just watch wrestling or put time into my other interests instead of just getting too much into analysis and psychology talk. Thinking this way eventually hurts the enjoyment of wrestling imo and I've seen this happen to fans. I like thinking of matches as legit when you get lost in the moment, kind of like how an announcer would view it. I also don't like being a critic at times so my talk gets limited. I even delete posts after writing a good amount of words at times. But since you asked, I'll be respectful and try to remember some of my thoughts and feelings on the match.

I've seen this match a good amount but haven't seen it in awhile so I'm forgetting some stuff.

Some things I'd like to point out .....

The sharpshooter wether used by Benoit or not at this time was not a Bret Hart end of match type finisher. Benoit's had some power and some danger and although used some (It was actually after wrestling Benoit that the Rock started using it) it was definitely not a finisher. I would say this match actually upped the danger of Benoit's sharpshooter in the WWF because the importance this match gave it. It wasn't until the A-Train match at No Mercy 2003 that the sharpshooter became a lethal finisher for Benoit. This was when its value upped.

 

 

Psychology to me exists in every single match that has ever occurred. It is the why. It can be "good", "ok" or "bad" psychology but it is there. Everything is psychology.

 

Benoit felt the beginning of the match could have been more intense. Although very proud of this match, he wanted it to be better.

 

 

Okay, so back to why this match works. I will try to remember.

 

`1)The flow is terrific and flow to me is essential in enjoying a wrestling match. And this one has it. The beginning part of the match is not as strong in this department but is fine. The second part of the match has an A+ flow and is totally congruent to the type of match they were going for. Great timing, rhythm and escalation here. Overall, I say Unforgiven has a better flow as that is A+ from start to finish in that department. Wrestlemania has flow too and is a great match but is not as strong as the Unforgiven and Rumble classics. Also, the match after the Rumble on Smackdown was fantastic for flow. Flow to me is a humongous part of psychology and absolutely essential on how I enjoy and rate wrestling matches.

2)To make this point, I want to take a look at the 3 most well known Angle vs Benoit matches. Mania, Unforgiven and the Rumble. All wrestled the way they should've been at the time they should have been. This actually shows restraint on Angle vs Benoit's part which is something some of their critics say they don't have against each other. You can't wrestle Unforgiven's match at the Rumble or Mania's match at Unforgiven etc. And that is smart psychology.

From the very get go Angle vs Benoit was all about one upmnaship technically with two guys innovatively and passionately going at it. From the very first Raw when the match was announced? when Benoit one upped Angle in a technical exchange that had me marking out of my mind this was what this was all about. From all their backstage segments and interviews and talks to their actions in the ring it was what this was all about. And they wrestled the matches like this which is why the clear examples of trading germans and submission spots for example are absolutely freaking brilliant psychology. A clear demonstration on what Benoit and Angle were fighting hmm I should say wrestling about.

When you look at Mania, it was exactly the match they were supposed to have at the time. It said a lot about who they were, where they were at and sets the groundwork for the future. Unforgiven is about total one-upmanship and nothing else. The whole match is wrestled that way and is absolutely freaking genius in doing so. Almost a perfect match and would've been if it weren't for a slip there with the Peterson Roll before Angle got Benoit into the Angle Lock. If they were going for what I think they were going for. The ending itself is beyond epicness and fits unbelievably well with what they were doing. An all time fav ending and super strong psychology. Rumble was about epicness combined with one-upmanship which was what they were building to beforehand. That's the match they had to wrestle, that's the match they did wrestle and kudos to them for it. Excellent psychology. The ending with the AngleLock03 was also seemingly meant for an epic rematch which would've had Benoit winning and overcoming the AngleLock 03 but alas that never happened. Smart wrestling. They did have an excellent match on Smackdown shortly afterwards.

3)The beginning of the Rumble match was pretty good although not as legendary as say Unforgiven's starting. The positives of it is that it keeps your interest, is compelling and allows the 2nd half of the match to feel more special for the big lengthy climax. The sharpshooter stuff was strong overall with it being worked with every time Benoit trying a new way to lock it on. It also puts some danger into the match but at the same time not too, too much as the sharpshooter as aluded to before only had a certain level of strength here. It also allows the stronger level of submissions later on to stand out more.

What works with the sharpshooter also works with the flying headbutt. Benoit has to work hard to nail his always over flying headbutt finisher so by the time he hits it the third time the fans are literally drooling for it. This is something that always works in pro wrestling but what makes it even grander here is how on the 3rd time Benoit through his body language makes sure to draw every single bit of emotion, tension and emotion out of the audience. Cole picked up on this and was great announcing at this moment. Couple this with one of his best looking long distance headbutts ever after a smart one-upmanship spot that ends with the flip over german and it puts goosebumps on the audiences arms. People see that actual real life effort and it draws them in allowing them to get lost in the moment even more. Strong psychology and not random psychology.

4)There is counter learning from match to match to match which is shown in the Rumble here. Also, there is in ring learning countering as well which I remember being done in a heated, emotional moment of the match. At the end there I belive where Benoit goes for a crossface reversal that he had used earlier but Angle holds on. There is also long counter learning submission wrestling in the Smackdown match after the Rumble.

5)Going back, I remember the double clothesline spot being great for a wakeup call for the audience to get more into the match which is what they needed at the time

6) The match escalates well which I mentioned before with the flow. They never go overboard but toll the line exactly like they should which is impressive considering that they do a lot and are wrestling an epic one-upmanship match storyline wise. Smart.

7)I just love the smart, innovative countering they do which fits so well into their personalities and stores at the time. Afterwards, all escapes from going to your back from an angle lock attempt to a lot of other moves would be used again by others but at the time they were brand new.

 

I enjoy the match a lot and believe it's smart and not random wrestling. It works on the majority of fans from my perspective. It's not perfect but it is tremendous. I think Unforgiven is almost perfect but you can't compare the two totally fairly because the objectives of the matches were different. This is what I personally get from Benoit vs Angle.

 

 

I can't wait for RE to start contributing to the Memphis thread.

[goodhelmet]

It's just one of those, "let's shit on something that was popular to prove our wrestling smark superiority" deals.

This is complete bullshit. There are plenty of detailed examples in here of why people do not like Kurt Angle. This is also a place where tons of people do not like Edge. Add the stink of Benoit and why would people praise it? That is three of the six guys who people may not enjoy. When they are in the majority of the matches, people are going to be cold to the product.

 

Again, I've never seen hate for the SD6 until this thread. Even if you didn't like some of them for whatever oversmarked out reason, you still had Brock, Hardy, Show, Taijiri and others mixing with them to put on good performances.

 

What's the stink of Benoit in ring? That's the first I've ever heard of it.

 

I never liked Edge until the end of his run and even he performed very well in his role.

 

And on to Angle, the hate for him is honestly overblown and half there because of Meltzer's love for him. Pretty sure most of the people who rip on him haven't even watched him regularly for years, if ever. Reminds me a lot of the infamous HBK DVDVR thread where people were saying Snitsky was a better worker or the Tiger Mask is the worst wrestler ever propaganda.

 

The stink on Benoit is that he killed his family and some people do not enjoy watching him in the ring.

 

Again... I call bullshit. You have several criticisms of the Benoit-Angle match where people had revisited this match recently. This thread opens up discussion of the SD6 and it gives people reason to post when they didn't feel the need prior to the thread being started.

 

As for Angle, people started hating him because Meltzer loves him? Do you really think a Phil Schneider or Dylan Waco or whatever other Angle hater is out there gives two shits if Meltzer has a hard on for Angle?

[rzombie1988]

It's just one of those, "let's shit on something that was popular to prove our wrestling smark superiority" deals.

This is complete bullshit. There are plenty of detailed examples in here of why people do not like Kurt Angle. This is also a place where tons of people do not like Edge. Add the stink of Benoit and why would people praise it? That is three of the six guys who people may not enjoy. When they are in the majority of the matches, people are going to be cold to the product.

 

Again, I've never seen hate for the SD6 until this thread. Even if you didn't like some of them for whatever oversmarked out reason, you still had Brock, Hardy, Show, Taijiri and others mixing with them to put on good performances.

 

What's the stink of Benoit in ring? That's the first I've ever heard of it.

 

I never liked Edge until the end of his run and even he performed very well in his role.

 

And on to Angle, the hate for him is honestly overblown and half there because of Meltzer's love for him. Pretty sure most of the people who rip on him haven't even watched him regularly for years, if ever. Reminds me a lot of the infamous HBK DVDVR thread where people were saying Snitsky was a better worker or the Tiger Mask is the worst wrestler ever propaganda.

 

The stink on Benoit is that he killed his family and some people do not enjoy watching him in the ring.

 

Again... I call bullshit. You have several criticisms of the Benoit-Angle match where people had revisited this match recently. This thread opens up discussion of the SD6 and it gives people reason to post when they didn't feel the need prior to the thread being started.

 

As for Angle, people started hating him because Meltzer loves him? Do you really think a Phil Schneider or Dylan Waco or whatever other Angle hater is out there gives two shits if Meltzer has a hard on for Angle?

 

Chris Benoit the wrestler and Christopher Michael Benoit the person are two different people. It would be like hating Michael Jackson's music because of his issues with kids. We all know what Benoit did but none us will ever know the full story.

 

Angle/Benoit is one match. If everyone loved or hated a wrestler forever due to one match, there would be no wrestlers left to like. Can't think of one wrestler who didn't have an opponent or match that I didn't hate.

 

I said the Meltzer love was a piece of it with the other half being people joining in on the sheep mentality. He would definitely get less heat if Meltzer didn't pimp his as much. Any anti-Angle thread has a Meltzer HOF mention in there somewhere. If Angle is half as bad as everyone claims he is, wrestling has gotten better.

[goodhelmet]

Oh fuck.. there is a Benoit thread here so I don't want to reopen the Benoit case again but because he killed his family, some of us can never watch a Benoit match the same way again. I like the Michael Jackson comparison because there are a shitload of people who probably don't listen to his music because of his pedophilia.

 

The Angle-Benoit match is one example of the things that Angle tends to do regularly that people don't like about Angle.

 

Final point.. the people who don't like Angle either Hate Meltzer or are sheep... not because they think he does annoying shit that makes people roll their eyes and quickly go looking for better wrestling.

[rzombie1988]

Oh fuck.. there is a Benoit thread here so I don't want to reopen the Benoit case again but because he killed his family, some of us can never watch a Benoit match the same way again. I like the Michael Jackson comparison because there are a shitload of people who probably don't listen to his music because of his pedophilia.

 

The Angle-Benoit match is one example of the things that Angle tends to do regularly that people don't like about Angle.

 

Final point.. the people who don't like Angle either Hate Meltzer or are sheep... not because they think he does annoying shit that makes people roll their eyes and quickly go looking for better wrestling.

You just have to seperate reality and wrestling. Finlay and Arn were giant assholes towards me and I still really enjoy their work. I think they are shitty people but I'll watch their matches.

 

I'm sure there are some people who just don't like Angle, but a lot of it is sheep thinking or anti-Meltzer stuff. Again, I'd have to ask, how many people watch Angle on a regular basis? I know it's a low number because I see the weekly Impact threads.

[Dylan Waco]

I can't get through modern TNA shows as a rule and I watch virtually everything. So I have not seen a bunch of recent Angle. But I have seen enough to know that I don't think he's any good.

 

Also the "sheep" argument works both ways. How many people would talk about Angle as an all time great if Dave wasn't beating the drum for him? The answer? We don't know, which is why I would rather discuss the particulars

[goodhelmet]

I created a thread for you to argue how great Angle is and what he does that makes you such a fan.

 

As for the Smackdown Six... there is an eight disc comp people can pick up in the MMT folder for those who want to relive that era.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I can't get through modern TNA shows as a rule and I watch virtually everything. So I have not seen a bunch of recent Angle. But I have seen enough to know that I don't think he's any good.

 

Also the "sheep" argument works both ways. How many people would talk about Angle as an all time great if Dave wasn't beating the drum for him? The answer? We don't know, which is why I would rather discuss the particulars

I thought the standard argument was that people only thought Angle was a great worker because of his Gold medals, not because Meltzer loved him.

 

But, anyway, I don't think most of the audience were Meltzer readers at the Royal Rumble match that is being discussed, yet it got a massive reaction in the building. Most people like the go-go-go ubersuplex and finisher burning style that Angle wrestled. Even non-Meltzer readers.

[rzombie1988]

As for the Smackdown Six... there is an eight disc comp people can pick up in the MMT folder for those who want to relive that era.

I get it and all, but ugh.

[goodhelmet]

As for the Smackdown Six... there is an eight disc comp people can pick up in the MMT folder for those who want to relive that era.

Ugh.

 

I think you are on the wrong board if you think I am not getting a shill in.

[rzombie1988]

As for the Smackdown Six... there is an eight disc comp people can pick up in the MMT folder for those who want to relive that era.

Ugh.

 

I think you are on the wrong board if you think I am not getting a shill in.

 

So is this what the thread and our discussion were all about?

[Dylan Waco]

As for the Smackdown Six... there is an eight disc comp people can pick up in the MMT folder for those who want to relive that era.

Ugh.

 

I think you are on the wrong board if you think I am not getting a shill in.

 

So is this what the thread and our discussion were all about?

 

From what I can tell the discussion was basically about your believing people only disliked Kurt Angle because Meltzer likes him, which isn't exactly the best way to drive serious debate

[rzombie1988]

As for the Smackdown Six... there is an eight disc comp people can pick up in the MMT folder for those who want to relive that era.

Ugh.

 

I think you are on the wrong board if you think I am not getting a shill in.

 

So is this what the thread and our discussion were all about?

 

From what I can tell the discussion was basically about your believing people only disliked Kurt Angle because Meltzer likes him, which isn't exactly the best way to drive serious debate

 

Please see my original post:

And on to Angle, the hate for him is honestly overblown and half there because of Meltzer's love for him. Pretty sure most of the people who rip on him haven't even watched him regularly for years, if ever. Reminds me a lot of the infamous HBK DVDVR thread where people were saying Snitsky was a better worker or the Tiger Mask is the worst wrestler ever propaganda.

 

Keyword = half.

[goodhelmet]

Dude, our discussion was over the moment you called the people here sheep. It's time to move on. I am more interested in hearing from people who actually want to discuss the matches and explain why they are good, bad or whatever. You have done nothing but criticize the very board and posters you are posting on and haven't done anything to further the topic itself. At least I am offering people a chance to view the stuff that is in the thread.

[rzombie1988]

At least I am offering people a chance to view the stuff that is in the thread.

How can they discuss it if they haven't seen it?

 

It's your site, so you can shill as much as you want, just I don't think the timing was appropriate.

[Dylan Waco]

You say most of the people haven't watched him regularly in years if ever, right after the "half" line. So I took it to mean that those who don't think Angle is a great wrestler base their views in part on Dave's pro-Angle view, and partially on other unnamed things. Generally I would prefer to discuss the unnamed things, though I'm open to the notion of a bigger discussion about "trends" in wrestling so far as people are willing to discuss it seriously and not use it as method to insulate preferred people from criticism.