What makes a spot believable/unbelievable?

[pol]

Recently had an argument on another forum about my dislike of fighting spirit no sell spots - the standard argument, made by many people, seems to be that everyone has specific things in wrestling that rankle them and disrupt their suspension of disbelief, but that these are essentially arbitrary pet peeves - that there's nothing fundamentally worse about a no-sell spot than, say, an Irish whip. Since I always like to believe I'm objectively correct and my opinions have a stronger basis than mere preference () I started thinking about this.

I think that a no-sell spot is a fundamentally different class of unbelievable than an Irish whip. An Irish whip is a move that's physically impossible in reality, but consistent with the exaggerated physics of pro wrestling. No-selling, on the other hand, is a disruption of the internal logic of pro wrestling - why can a guy who's been selling normally for the entire match suddenly pop right up after, say, a German suplex? I feel like spots that are physically unrealistic are far, far less egregious than spots that are logically inconsistent, and it's wrong to label having a problem with one class of 'unbelievable' spot and not the other as merely arbitrary preference.

Another factor to consider is what role context plays in determining what we consider unbelievable. I think it's safe to assume if you put a modern day WWE match in front of a 1960s crowd they would shit on it for the lack of realism. How big of a role do the established generic conventions of pro wrestling play in what we accept as believable? Is, say, running the ropes only accepted because we've seen it as such a ubiquitous element of wrestling matches for so long? And in that case - how did it ever come to be accepted in the first place?

Thoughts?

[fxnj]

It's kind of hard to reply without specific examples. I don't know if they do it differently on the US indies or whatever, but from the puro I watch it seems pretty inaccurate to characterize fighting spirit spots with no selling. It would be no selling if the guy just casually sat up, but when a guy makes it look he's digging as deep as he can to get up from a german, hits a quick counter move, and then collapses immediately afterwards, there is pretty clearly some selling going on. The only difference between that and just staying down is that it showcases another aspect of selling in addition to (not in place of) the damage of the move in the determination of the guy to fight through the pain. In the context of a match like Shibata/Gotoh 1/4/14 where it's clear neither guy wants to give the other an inch and they're willing to throw everything at each other to stop that from happening, I see nothing inconsistent in that the guys trading head drops is simply a larger scale version of them trading strikes.

 

As you kind of imply, the main reason for people disliking such spots seems mainly due to what they're used to watching. Most of the people who rag on fighting spirit also seem to be pretty big fans of WWE and I often have a really hard time getting into that style. Not just because a lack of things like stiffness and movez but even little things like punches getting spammed and sold like weak chops whereas I'm used to seeing them rarely used and treated like a big deal.

[khawk20]

I hate the hot tag/clothseline both opposing team members several times spot. Very unbelievable that guys get hit with a clothesline and then immediately spring back up for another one. Happens in singles matches too, of course.

 

I would guess the tag version sprung out of the expectation that the fans were going too apeshit about a good hot tag to notice it too much, and it caught on as a visual that looked fine in the immediacy of the match.

[Fantastic]

I hate the hot tag/clothseline both opposing team members several times spot. Very unbelievable that guys get hit with a clothesline and then immediately spring back up for another one. Happens in singles matches too, of course.

 

I would guess the tag version sprung out of the expectation that the fans were going too apeshit about a good hot tag to notice it too much, and it caught on as a visual that looked fine in the immediacy of the match.

 

Both these things.

 

I don't like WWE's signature comeback sequences that everyone seems to be doing, the whole "five moves of doom".

[Matt D]

To me wrestling has its own physics. It also has its own norms and rules. Something like both guys hitting the hot tag at the same time works for me for the same reason that (and this is a terrible, but pretty distinct example) a true love kiss can wake up a cursed princess in a fairy tale. That said, there are some rules or laws of physics I like more than others.

[Coffey]

Recently had an argument on another forum about my dislike of fighting spirit no sell spots

 

You watched the first day of the NJPW G1 Climax, didn't you? When that show was over, I was cussing up a storm about forearm trade-offs in the middle too. Every damn match had them.

[funkdoc]

fnxj: i suspect at least part of what pol is referring to is the US indies' aping of "Strong Style" or whatever you want to call it, and the people who like those workers. see: the infamous davey richards superplex GIF

 

not to say that japan would be off the hook either, kobashi at his worst fits this awfully well too

[pol]

 

Recently had an argument on another forum about my dislike of fighting spirit no sell spots

 

You watched the first day of the NJPW G1 Climax, didn't you? When that show was over, I was cussing up a storm about forearm trade-offs in the middle too. Every damn match had them.

 

 

Yeah, though it was the fact that the last three matches all had no-sells of suplexes... I'm almost prepared to accept that as a spot that may have its place, but maybe once every 6 months to a year, not three times on one show.

[Shining Wiz]

Attempting to use MMA submissions in wrestling drives me nuts. By using, for example, an armbar/cross arm breaker, you are acknowledging this is a legit move in MMA. However, in order to make it a move in wrestling, you have to not actually put it on, and the guy taking it can't react like someone really would in an armbar, which is to tap quickly. It just really takes me out of a match.

 

Worst all time example of this - the Undertakers embarrassingly bad gogoplata/Hell's Gate on Triple H at one if their Mania matches.

[pol]

People who are bringing up spots that grate: why do you think those spots bother you while others, that you could argue are equally unbelievable, don't? That's kinda what I was trying to get at.

[JNLister]

Irish Whip = fine. It's not something that would really happen, but it has a logic in that one guy uses his power to propel the other.

 

Canadian Destroyer = shit. When you see it, there's no logical explanation for what has happened other than the guy on defense has inexplicably decided to do a backflip onto his own head while holding on to the guy on offense.

 

As a general rule, a move sucks if the only way you can tell who was meant to have delivered the blow by which guy is selling.

[MJH]

Generally speaking, a spot is as believable as its execution.

 

Irish whips are fine, but it makes a world of difference if the guy delivering the whip follows through with his momentum. Benoit (sorry) would really follow through and make the move perfectly believable; Naomichi Marufuji half-arses it to a point where - and it must be worse live - it perfectly exemplifies the "fake shit!" aspect of wrestling people hound on about.

[dawho5]

I tend to put that kind of stuff away during wrestling matches as far as "could it happen?" sort of things. Execution is important, but you can't get too detail oriented on a lot of stuff or it ruins it. An example:

 

I was watching the Hayato vs. Kenou match from December 2009 earlier. During their faux-kickboxing I noticed very clearly that Hayato has not done a lot of sparring involving anybody even halfways throwing their kicks. If he had, he'd know that reaching for those incoming kicks without making a tight fist is a good way to at the very least get jammed fingers (if not broken ones, depending on how hard they are kicking). Shin vs. finger, you do the match.

 

So I tend to put away all "that's not how you do that" or "that's not possible" things because it's just gonna kill it for me. Another example:

 

Nakajima likes to do this kick where he turns a roundhouse completely vertical onto the back of a guy's head or neck. I notice watching it that it barely touches the guy, which is a good thing, because if there was any steam on it at all, that's big trouble for the guy taking it. If a guy trained to kick hits you with a vertical angled roundhouse, that's gonna have all kinds of force to it.

 

There are certainly spots that annoy me to no end, but it's not for lack of realism.

[Matt D]

Wrestling is really symbolic. It's all about selling and presentation. The Cobra can be as legitimate as Kawada kicking someone in the skull if it's sold strongly and consistently over time. That said, complicated moves that take a lot of obvious cooperation do sort of bother me. That's about it, past a lack of selling.

[sek69]

That's kind of why moves like the Cobra or the People's Elbow never bothered me. Sure, they're silly, but as long as they're sold as finishers they fit in the established world of pro wrestling physics and psychology, What gets on my nerves is when someone takes a bump in a way that just so happens to line them up perfectly for the top rope move their opponent is about to do to them. Bonus points if they notice after they bump that they're out of position and have to wiggle like they're making snow angels in the ring to get correctly positioned.

[cowboy hats]

Canadian Destroyer = shit. When you see it, there's no logical explanation for what has happened other than the guy on defense has inexplicably decided to do a backflip onto his own head while holding on to the guy on offense.

 

what did i just see:

 

[BillThompson]

For me it depends on the situation, the wrestlers, and the internal consistency of the match. No-selling can be believable because I've seen it happen in real fights, and unfortunately even to me. There's nothing quite like having a guy nearly dead and then from nowhere he gets a second wind and starts shrugging off shots right to the chin and throwing bombs of his own. I think it all goes back to wrestling having its own physics, but even more to individual matches having their own physics and stories to tell.

[Sidebottom]

You could make the logical argument that the entirety of a pro wrestling match is not believable.

[pol]

For me it depends on the situation, the wrestlers, and the internal consistency of the match. No-selling can be believable because I've seen it happen in real fights, and unfortunately even to me.

 

I think this (very common) defense is kind of interesting. I think wrestling logic has to be in some ways more believable than real life - the fact that something could viably happen in reality is irrelevant to me if the spot just strikes me as unbelievable. If I have to give extra thought to how believable something is I'm already taken out of the match, even if I end up concluding that it makes sense.

[fxnj]

I think this (very common) defense is kind of interesting. I think wrestling logic has to be in some ways more believable than real life - the fact that something could viably happen in reality is irrelevant to me if the spot just strikes me as unbelievable. If I have to give extra thought to how believable something is I'm already taken out of the match, even if I end up concluding that it makes sense.

 

So basically the only thing separating "believable" from "unbelievable" is one falls in line with what you're used to seeing while the other doesn't.

[pol]

 

I think this (very common) defense is kind of interesting. I think wrestling logic has to be in some ways more believable than real life - the fact that something could viably happen in reality is irrelevant to me if the spot just strikes me as unbelievable. If I have to give extra thought to how believable something is I'm already taken out of the match, even if I end up concluding that it makes sense.

 

So basically the only thing separating "believable" from "unbelievable" is one falls in line with what you're used to seeing while the other doesn't.

 

 

Maybe? After thinking about it more I kind of stated it poorly there. Plenty of people have stated that it doesn't matter if a spot is unrealistic, physically, if it makes sense within a wrestling's established rules, and I think this is simply the flipside of that - it doesn't matter if a spot is physically realistic if it isn't consistent with the established rules.

[Matt D]

It's all about narrative tools. Wrestling is storytelling and storytelling is neater and cleaner than real life most of the time.

[pol]

It's all about narrative tools. Wrestling is storytelling and storytelling is neater and cleaner than real life most of the time.

 

Yeah exactly. A narrative doesn't have to be realistic but it does have to be consistent with itself. At the same time I think there is an artistic value to confounding the expectations your narrative has created (thinking of the ending to Magnolia, the one scene in Funny Games...) though I'm not sure where that fits into wrestling.

[Matt D]

 

It's all about narrative tools. Wrestling is storytelling and storytelling is neater and cleaner than real life most of the time.

 

Yeah exactly. A narrative doesn't have to be realistic but it does have to be consistent with itself. At the same time I think there is an artistic value to confounding the expectations your narrative has created (thinking of the ending to Magnolia, the one scene in Funny Games...) though I'm not sure where that fits into wrestling.

 

 

That Triple H vs Orton Wrestlemania match where they started with the finishers?

[Shining Wiz]

As long as it doesn't take me out of my willing suspension of disbelief, I'm ok with it. Just like i don't enjoy slapstick comedy in the middle of serious action movie, I don't like certain things in the middle of a match that is out of place. I don't mind a Santino cobra, but if that was the finish to a 35 minute Lesnar brawl, I would have issues.