Daniel Bryan

[Ma Stump Puller]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:26 AM, fxnj said:

I was watching the early part of the MJF iron man, the part where they run through a series of cooperative looking go-behind wrist locks and do a crappy Indieriffic Standoff headlock exchange that has the commentators marking out, and I think it finally clicked with me why I don't see him as a top 10 guy and am even kind of reluctant on him as a top 100 guy despite his volume of good-to-really-good stuff being undeniable. I'd long attributed it that, unlike his more innovative contemporaries like Low Ki, AJ Styles, and Necro Butcher, his matches didn't really have much of what I'd call his personal stamp. He was the ultimate cosplay wrestler, his moveset a massive hodgepodge of stuff from WoS/shoot-style/lucha/AJPW heavies/NJPW juniors, but when watching his stuff my mind tended to wander more towards how much better his stuff was done by the guys he was imitating rather than staying focused on his personal contribution. That is, unless we count his contribution in popularizing cosplay wrestling itself or annoying post-modern shit like the "I have till 5" thing.

Still, that's only part of the issue. The actual root of it all goes down to his presentation as some sort of genius mat wrestler when he just doesn't have the chops to make me buy into it. More than that, he's billed as being the Best in the World, when most of his skillset caps out as "competent" or "good." This is where his case falls apart when you compare him to Misawa or Fujiwara, setting aside the sheer volume argument of how those guys blow him away for all-time great level stuff. When I'm watching prime Misawa, pretty much everything he does is something he's either one of the best at or pretty damn great at. Insanely stiff elbows, breathtaking execution on dives and hurricanrana counters, selling that made me believe, even snug lock-ups and headlocks. Ditto Fujiwara with matches built around insane matwork, next-level charisma, and sickening headbutts. The only aspect of Bryan's game I really get that feel with is his cardio, which actually ends up being more of a net negative for me since he has a tendency of filling his matches with Stuff, where I'd often feel it better if things had a little bit more focus. The AJ Styles match from ROH 2002 is a good example of that I watched recently.

As an aside, having sampled a bit of his AEW stuff, I'm starting to think his prime might actually still be WWE. The over-produced style was actually the perfect environment for accentuating the "good" aspects of his game just enough to where I could actually buy into his gimmick for matches like vs. Kofi and Reigns, whilst also filtering out things like the ill-advised MJF exchange mentioned before.

I think this reflects my views on Bryan a fair bit. I've watched a good bit of his best work, just never really seen the "GOAT" out of him. He seems like a guy who especially in his earlier days felt like someone trying to copy better wrestlers without really putting his own ideas into how to make them better/unique. Like Necro/Low-Ki had MUCH shorter peaks but they were so wildly unique in their presentation that you couldn't help but acknowledge them, even if you thought Necro "couldn't wrestle" or Low-Ki "just stiffed people" (I disagree with both of these ofc) you were pretty much forced to confront what they brought to the table. With Bryan, I see so many of him out there that I can just kinda phase him out. His actual matches around the time are still pretty bloody great, but they aren't GOAT-contender material. I'm not that wowed by them at the end of the day.

With Bryan, I just kinda see that part of his career as a pseudo Minoru Tanaka where he's trying to do the "flashy Jr with kicks/submissions" style without actually drilling in what he wants to add on top of that. I feel like he got much better at realising his potential as a legendarily great babyface in his WWE/AEW material wherein he was forced to have shorter matches and so could not have the luxury of having 30+ Epics every time where he could just fill it as much as possible with stuff he wanted to throw in. This does start to creep into his AEW material again (especially with his hour long matches) but I think he handled it much better and I would say that by far that was his best balance. 

The other issue (and this is one I've talked with others about, including Joseph on this thread here!) is that I don't think Bryan cracked certain things that are required for a GOAT-status. He didn't really have stellar tag-team matches, for instance, only a short couple of showings in WWE where he was mostly using his incredible babyface energy for hot tags. One can't really find the carefully constructed masterpieces that the Pillars were involved in, or the incredible high intensity JWP-tags that defined those like Dynamite or Ozaki. They simply don't exist. I don't think he cracked being a heel either though that's a whole other bag of worms. Needless to say, I think he's still a pretty good performer, still say he was top 30/40, but the Platonic ideal that he represents just doesn't really click for me nor do I think was ever realised.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm a non-believer when it comes to Danielson, but he did have some high profile ROH tag matches outside of the WWE stuff. 

[Makai Club #1]

13 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I'm a non-believer when it comes to Danielson, but he did have some high profile ROH tag matches outside of the WWE stuff. 

Forgive me if you've explained this before in any detail (feel free the point me in that direction if you have), but I'm curious to know what makes you a non-believer and why? 

[ohtani's jacket]

On 6/20/2025 at 6:03 AM, Makai Club #1 said:

Forgive me if you've explained this before in any detail (feel free the point me in that direction if you have), but I'm curious to know what makes you a non-believer and why? 

I should preface my comments by saying that the largest number of Danielson matches I've seen to date have been from the first half of the 00s. I'm currently watching bits and pieces of his heel run in 2006. I like Danielson. I mean, you'd be hard pressed not to. However, I don't get why he was elevated above his peers from the same era. I don't think Danielson was any better than AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Low Ki, or Christopher Daniels, to name some of his fellow indy workers. I get that he was a hero to people the same way that Bret was a hero to me, but when people elevate a guy that high and you don't feel a connection with him then you start to pick holes. The same is true of any wrestler, I suppose, but Danielson struck a particular chord with fans who cared a lot about the wrestling that came after I stopped watching. When I watch Danielson, I see a guy who is highly influenced by the tape trading culture and who pieced together a bunch of cool shit from tapes, but had a hard time selling himself as legit. The other guys I named all feel like true versions of themselves. Danielson feels like a community theater actor at times. Perhaps I don't appreciate the irony of his heel act, but everything he does, someone else did better. It's kind of unfair in a way since the people he borrowed from were working on bigger stages in larger arenas, but it doesn't play that well when you're trying to be Nick Bockwinkel in front of a smart crowd. I wouldn't call myself anti-Danielson. I just wish people would chill out with the hyperbole. 

I'm also aware that the workers I mention all faded to one extent or another while Danielson had stronger runs in the big leagues. I'm not sure I care all that much about that, though. Some of the TNA stuff that Styles, Joe and Daniels have been doing is clearly better or on par with WWE/AEW Danielson. So yeah, great worker, in the mix, not head and shoulders above anyone. 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

20 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I should preface my comments by saying that the largest number of Danielson matches I've seen to date have been from the first half of the 00s. I'm currently watching bits and pieces of his heel run in 2006. I like Danielson. I mean, you'd be hard pressed not to. However, I don't get why he was elevated above his peers from the same era. I don't think Danielson was any better than AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Low Ki, or Christopher Daniels, to name some of his fellow indy workers. I get that he was a hero to people the same way that Bret was a hero to me, but when people elevate a guy that high and you don't feel a connection with him then you start to pick holes. The same is true of any wrestler, I suppose, but Danielson struck a particular chord with fans who cared a lot about the wrestling that came after I stopped watching. When I watch Danielson, I see a guy who is highly influenced by the tape trading culture and who pieced together a bunch of cool shit from tapes, but had a hard time selling himself as legit. The other guys I named all feel like true versions of themselves. Danielson feels like a community theater actor at times. Perhaps I don't appreciate the irony of his heel act, but everything he does, someone else did better. It's kind of unfair in a way since the people he borrowed from were working on bigger stages in larger arenas, but it doesn't play that well when you're trying to be Nick Bockwinkel in front of a smart crowd. I wouldn't call myself anti-Danielson. I just wish people would chill out with the hyperbole. 

I'm also aware that the workers I mention all faded to one extent or another while Danielson had stronger runs in the big leagues. I'm not sure I care all that much about that, though. Some of the TNA stuff that Styles, Joe and Daniels have been doing is clearly better or on par with WWE/AEW Danielson. So yeah, great worker, in the mix, not head and shoulders above anyone. 

I don't want you to think I'm being ironic in anyway ohtani's jacket. This is actually a pretty fascinating post. The lines that jump out at me being

20 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

When I watch Danielson, I see a guy who is highly influenced by the tape trading culture and who pieced together a bunch of cool shit from tapes, but had a hard time selling himself as legit. 

This is such an interesting point. Danielson certainly saw how a gimmick on being the "American Dragon" who wrestled in Japan and was a shoot grappler would get over in 2000s independent wrestling world. He was a "master technician" long before he was a master, much like Ric Flair was a living legend long before he actually was. Living the gimmick.

But yes, he had trouble selling himself as legit dangerous with his size and his lack of athleticism. Compare it with Kurt Angle or Brock Lesnar who also had the shooter gimmicks, but moved so differently in the ring.

21 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

 I don't get why he was elevated above his peers from the same era. I don't think Danielson was any better than AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Low Ki, or Christopher Daniels, to name some of his fellow indy workers

If you've haven't watched Wrestling Road Diaries in a while, please revisit it. It is just 90 minutes of camcorder footage showing that Bryan Danielson GETS the business. He is a worker in the old school sense. That's why he made it to WWE before so many of his peers, and why McMahon saw he would have a use for him.

How many people get fired for fucking up a major angle with a shoot necktie choke, and get hired back straight away?

I think he did his better stuff much later in his career, when he gave up trying to be "legit" and just worked as a canny, veteran wrestler who can take a beating. His Brock match is actually fantastic, he had some genuinely classy matches with Orton on Raw in 2013, and his AEW run has more hits than misses, which is rare for someone with as many miles on their body as he has.