Giant Baba

[Guest si oem]

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[MJH]

I guess this is the perfect place to ask: where did the idea that Baba is/was the perfect wresting psychologist come from?

[Jingus]

Being the boss of the best-booked company in wrestling history?

[MJH]

Whilst that's an arguable/contentious point (to put it mildly), I was referring to him as an in-ring worker rather than as a booker.

[Jingus]

Well then, I guess the short version would be: I don't remember ever seeing Baba do anything in the ring that didn't make sense. (Not counting the irritating fuck-finishes which infested all of Japanese wrestling in the late 70s and early 80s, anyway.) Everything he did seemed to have a point, and to be going somewhere. Even if he was just killing time with an armbar, there was usually a fairly obvious reason why he was killing time with an armbar. He knew that most of his offense looked crappy in the later days of his career, so he was always very picky in choosing what to do and when. And how he would sell, oh Lordy his selling was just magnificent.

[jdw]

I guess this is the perfect place to ask: where did the idea that Baba is/was the perfect wresting psychologist come from?

 

Sounds like a quote. Who used it, and perhaps we can ask that person.

[elliott]

Being the boss of the best-booked company in wrestling history?

 

I think Baba was an incredibly smart worker. On the short list of smartest workers I've seen. But I would absolutely not point to the booking of All Japan as evidence of Baba's genius. He was an incredibly conservative and unimaginative booker. When AJ was hot it was due to outside forces like Choshu jumping and Tenryu leaving, not because Baba came up with some hot program.

[Jingus]

I think Baba was an incredibly smart worker. On the short list of smartest workers I've seen. But I would absolutely not point to the booking of All Japan as evidence of Baba's genius. He was an incredibly conservative and unimaginative booker. When AJ was hot it was due to outside forces like Choshu jumping and Tenryu leaving, not because Baba came up with some hot program.

How do you fit the 90s into that description? Aside from the occasional part-time gaijin, Baba's roster consisted of the same half-dozen top guys for years on end; and they still filled those arenas just fine.

[jdw]

In 1985, Choshu jump.

 

In 1987, Choshu jumped back to New Japan, and Tenryu went opposite of Jumbo.

 

In 1990, Tenryu left and they elevated Misawa.

 

In 1992, Jumbo got sick and in 1993 they moved Kawada over opposite of Misawa.

 

What happened is that every 2-3 years, Baba was faced with one of his top guys leaving or going out. It forced him to change his program, rather than him coming up with a way to freshen up things while everyone stayed around.

 

In 1995... 1996... Kawada didn't leave, Misawa didn't get sick. Faced with a stale roster, the book just went along stale.

 

One can go back and look at 1989 and 1992 before he was forced to make changes. As each of those years went on, and went into the next year, they were pretty stale.

 

Baba wasn't a great booker. He wasn't a bad one. Solid for the most part over a long run, and very good at reacting to change. But things tended to get static, which isn't terribly surprising since the 1960s and 1970s of his prime were static eras. It was easier to do in those years when the gaijin were the "opponents" and they were changing from series to series. Increasingly static roster make static booking kind of stand out if things don't change over a few years.

[elliott]

Tenryu left in 1990. So that was an outside force driving Baba to make changes going into the 90s and elevate the next generation setting the business on fire. 90s. It will take a while for new talent to become stale. Eventually they did because they were the same guys wrestling each other over and over again.

 

The most beloved feud of 90s All Japan was Misawa vs Kawada. Was that a masterfully booked feud? Or was it one guy beating another guy (in great matches, don't get me wrong) for eternity?

 

If Baba was a genius booker, couldn't he have figured out a way to do something with the next generation of natives to keep the big 4 or 5 fresh? If All Japan was the best booked company in wrestling history why were their undercards so lame?

 

I'm not trying to shit on Baba or All Japan. There will probably be 4 AJ guys in my top 10 and between 6-8 AJ guys in my top 30 for the GWE. The company has produced some of my favorite matches, feuds, wrestlers, etc ever. But it is almost in spite of the booking that the there were so many great matches.

 

Late 70s-late 80s "These guys will wrestle to a double countout because we have to protect them."

Late 80s-The Split "Wrestler X will beat Wrestler Y because Wrestler X is older and more Experienced"

 

Not exactly the most exciting booking philosophies.

 

Riki Choshu was right there.

 

I also would have accepted Jerry Jarrett

[elliott]

Shit, I totally brainfarted on Jumbo getting sick forcing Baba to change again in the 90s. Geez. That's the last really major thing . Thanks John

[Jingus]

Burying Baba's booking in the 90s is like burying Akira Kurosawa's filmmaking in the 50s: I literally don't comprehend that anyone could believe that. To me, you're speaking gibberish. The Four (or five or seven or ten) Pillars era was the greatest pro wrestling I've ever seen, full stop. And hey, could anyone besides me maybe try addressing MJH's original question?

[elliott]

Burying Baba's booking in the 90s is like burying Akira Kurosawa's filmmaking in the 50s: I literally don't comprehend that anyone could believe that. To me, you're speaking gibberish. The Four (or five or seven or ten) Pillars era was the greatest pro wrestling I've ever seen, full stop.

 

In ring, absolutely. The main events were often great-all time great matches. The overall booking of the promotion, unless outside forces were pushing his hand, was disappointing relative to the main event talent.

 

Kurosawa showed more creativity in 90 minutes of Rashomon than Baba did in 30 years of All Japan.

 

I won't hold Baba's uninteresting booking against him in the GWE poll. He'll rank really high for me. As will a lot of his disciples. I like them as workers. I wish they had a Riki Choshu type booker.

[jdw]

Burying Baba's booking in the 90s is like burying Akira Kurosawa's filmmaking in the 50s: I literally don't comprehend that anyone could believe that. To me, you're speaking gibberish. The Four (or five or seven or ten) Pillars era was the greatest pro wrestling I've ever seen, full stop.

 

Who is burying Baba's booking? We're just saying that the actual *booking* wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

I've got the 20 year online rep of being All Japan Fanboy #1, along with eating plenty of shit for the evil influence that I've had on creating a generation of ditto heads following my lead to create an All Japan Hegemony as the greatest wrestling ever. So...

 

When All Japan Fanboy #1 is willing to admit that certain elements of All Japan weren't God's Gift To Pro Wrestling, perhaps there's something to it.

 

And hey, could anyone besides me maybe try addressing MJH's original question?

 

 

I asked him who said it so we might get some insight into what it's all about.

 

It's certainly not from me. Even with the positive things that I've said about Baba over the years... I haven't tossed out something like that. I'm not sure how I'm suppose to address a question releated to an opinion that's not mine, or quite mine.

 

I'm sure MJH can point to what he's talking about. Links are good, and what not. Then the rest of us can take a look at it.

 

My thoughts on Baba, if I haven't tossed them out enough over the years?

 

He was a very good worker given his limitations, very smart in his work, and often a lot of fun to watch. I've called him a smarter version of Taue, and that's not comparing him to the version of Taue that I like less than most these days, but the version of Taue that I've pimped the shit out of. Praise.

[jdw]

 

Burying Baba's booking in the 90s is like burying Akira Kurosawa's filmmaking in the 50s: I literally don't comprehend that anyone could believe that. To me, you're speaking gibberish. The Four (or five or seven or ten) Pillars era was the greatest pro wrestling I've ever seen, full stop.

 

In ring, absolutely. The main events were often great-all time great matches. The overall booking of the promotion, unless outside forces were pushing his hand, was disappointing relative to the main event talent.

 

Kurosawa showed more creativity in 90 minutes of Rashomon than Baba did in 30 years of All Japan.

 

I won't hold Baba's uninteresting booking against him in the GWE poll. He'll rank really high for me. As will a lot of his disciples. I like them as workers. I wish they had a Riki Choshu type booker.

 

 

I don't wish they had Choshu. I liked the contrast. 6/9/95 meant something because there has been a delay. If Choshu were booking, Kawada would have gotten a pin on Misawa before Misawa even won the Triple Crown. Jumbo would have jobbed to a bunch of younger guys in the 1992 Carny.

 

What Choshu did was cool for New Japan for a good stretch. What Baba did for All Japan was good for stretch. The contrast is nice.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing I'll say from watching a lot of 70s and early 80s is that Baba went to the double count out an awful lot with his finishes.

[jdw]

COR, DCOR, DQ, DDQ.

 

Last week I watched a 2/3 fall tag match. Flair pins Baba in the first. Flair beats Jumbo with a COR in the second fall. Next week's show had a tag with a DQ finish. Common.

 

New Japan did too.

[ohtani's jacket]

In fairness to Baba, I'm not sure the perfect booker exists. They all tend to be reactionary, and when they stumble upon a good idea they milk it for every last cent. If they were able to prevent their product from stagnating, the business wouldn't be quite so cyclical. Even the Matsunagas, who deliberately retired their stars to prevent them from becoming stagnant, couldn't transition smoothly from one era to the next. Pro-wrestling is in essence show business, and certainly in Japan was competing with other forms of show biz for TV time. In any form of show biz it takes time for the next big thing to come along, and everything stagnates with time whether it's your favourite TV show, comic book run, sports team, musician or film director. Most pro-wrestling is shoddily booked, which makes Baba better than most, and I also think he has longevity in his favour as he was able to book a number of hot runs over 25 years. There were certain elements of his *promoting* that kept All Japan a solid number two, and he was certainly conservative, but so are "serious and stable" CMLL and they've survived longer than anybody, so is that inherently a bad thing?

 

Another possible criticism of Baba as a booker was that he wasn't great at finishing angles he started, but again that's true of most bookers who don't have an end goal in sight. I wonder if ticket gates and nightly houses don't play a part in this. It's easy to apply film or literary criticism to wrestling and critique the lack of narrative structure, but unlike a film or a play, the booker is making it up as he goes along and not fretting over his story ideas until he's ready to show it to the public. Sure, it would be great if they had some idea of the bigger picture, but their deadline is tighter than any creative type with a nightly show to produce. I doubt many bookers in wrestling history have thought more than a few months ahead, and certainly none of them have had a final destination in mind.

[JerryvonKramer]

Baba's key strengths as a booker were patience and sticking to something he'd already set his mind on. This was very good for CREATING STARS, making wins and losses count for something, and producing long-term rivalries.

 

If I was to do a best booker / promoter list right now it would be something like:

 

1. Vince Jr.

2. Giant Baba

3. Vince Sr.

4. Bill Watts

5. Paul Heyman

 

Baba and Vince Sr are comparible in a lot of ways in that both had a system and really stuck to it and were both 100% men of their word. Watts is the best pure storyteller, and also the best for putting heat on his heels to make payoffs really mean something. Vince Sr. probably the best at executing angles when he did do them (every single one we've seen on Titans has been PERFECT). Heyman the best for getting the most out of limited talent. Vince Jr. the best at crafting recognisable and marketable identities which sell tickets and "postcard moments" you remember forever.

 

I don't really see any others coming into the conversation, unless someone lived to watch all of Eddie Graham's Florida or Shire's SF territory and can tell us about it.

[ohtani's jacket]

The problem I see with that is that New Japan were bigger and made more money than All Japan.

[JerryvonKramer]

How much of that is down to Inoki's personal legend?

 

I will say, though, that I see Riki Choshu talked up as a great booker a lot and have yet to watch through most of NJPW. It's my next big "to do".

[ohtani's jacket]

How much of that is down to Inoki's personal legend?

 

I'm not sure. It's not something that's been properly explored.

[DGinnetty]

How much of that is down to Inoki's personal legend?

 

I will say, though, that I see Riki Choshu talked up as a great booker a lot and have yet to watch through most of NJPW. It's my next big "to do".

 

Based on the research I have done so far, NJ was more successful than AJ in ratings, attendance, and revenue all the way up to 84 or 85.

85-88 or 86-88 was in AJs advantage in average attendance and total attendance, most likely revenue as well.

 

In 1983, Inoki was out "injured" for almost 3 months, and NJ continued to sell out

 

For the tour that Inoki missed (Summer Fight Series 7/1/83 to 8/4/83, plus the first 2 shows of the next tour), NJ averaged 4111 per show over 35 shows;

for a total of 143900

 

 

Once NJ started running in the Tokyo Dome, they never looked back. attendance-wise, or revenue-wise.

 

Dan Ginnetty

[MJH]

Re: my comment, there's no actual quote as such, I've always thought it was people getting a bit carried away with the "Baba was actually very good" argument given how he's liable to strike someone at first glance (especially in the '90s, say)... it's literally just something I've seen written enough times to where perhaps it's a 'thing' for some people.

[Childs]

How much credit (or blame in some cases) does Baba get for the development of the in-ring style? Would he have been intimately involved in discussing the big matches with his top guys? Or did he just pick his players and let them run with it?

 

Obviously, he gets some of the credit because he was the first ace of the promotion. But beyond that ...