ohtani's jacket Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 People who watch a whole bunch of modern wrestling are going to have blindspots in other areas, and the lists produced on the websites they frequent would also have flaws. It's impossible to produce a perfect list, and as with any project of this sort the merit is in the discussion and the discoveries people make along the way and not so much the final results. The point is to re-assess and re-evaluate how we look at workers ten years on. If there aren't enough modern or indy workers on it that tells you modern or indy workers weren't a big priority in 2016 just like a whole bunch of workers weren't in 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 What bothers me about rovert's whining is that it strikes me as a preemptive effort to attack the results of a project he has refused to engage with up until this point. Rather than complaining because someone dared to nominate Jimmy Jacobs instead of other allegedly superior wrestlers (I would note there is something comical about accusations of non-inclusiveness being made by someone attacking the nomination of a peripheral indie guy but I digress), why not nominate the superior wrestlers? If the answer is "they aren't popular here and I don't want to have to defend my nomination," than the accusation of cowardice hardly seems misplaced. This is something that bothers me in general about the accusation of elitism and intimidation that I have seen tossed around a few times in this thread - expressing an opinion that goes against Meltzerian Gospel, established "smart fan" standards, or WWE's view of history should not be seen as elitism. It should be seen as an opinion to be debated, discussed, et. It strikes me that much of the "you guy are in a bubble, and unfair to opposing views" criticism basically comes down to "you have different views on wrestler X, or style Y than I do, and therefore you are just a contrarian with eccentric views who is not worth talking to." In other words the people accusing others of elitism are elitist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 There is a good chance i'd have guys in my Top 10 who wouldn't even place in the overall Top 100. That isn't what will stop me from sending a list. What will likely prevent me from sending a list is that I am way too indecisive and would never be happy with my list. I would change my mind every day, and change my mind thirty seconds after I hit 'submit'. My mind just isn't wired properly for something like this. Aside from trying to rank guys, which is a daunting task in itself, there is the issue of forgetting guys, wanting to rank guys who aren't nominated, and what I think is the most impossible task of all, and the thing that I don't really understand how you guys are able to do it, which is comparing guys from different eras or vastly different styles (or both). How on Earth can I determine who was better between Masato Yoshino and Barry Windham or Curt Hennig or Pat O'Connor? Yoshino works under a completely different set of rules in terms of psychology, and to me is trying to accomplish something completely different in his matches than somebody who works shoot style or who peaked in a southern territory in 1981, to the point I find it ridiculous to even compare. At the end of the day, it just comes down to style bias, because direct comparisons will never work. All layers of wrestling psychology are context dependent. There is no "right way" to work a match, there is no one set definition of "meaningful selling", for instance. Dragon Gate psychology might as well be a different art form all together than Continental or Chikara or RINGS. The participants are working under vastly different parameters. The only way to properly approach this imo to compare Masato Yoshino to say, Bill Dundee, is to comapre to their direct peers, not each other, and determine who is better in relation to others who work the same style. Because there is no way in hell you can definitively say which of those guys are "better". You're just going to choose the one who works the style you prefer. And you can't be blamed for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 Projects like this aren't a science and the results are less important the journey. I would encourage you to participate Joe, but I understand if you won't. Lord knows it is brutally hard for me to rank matches, so it's not like I can't see where you are coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 Sure, if it's not going to be enjoyable for you, don't vote. Doesn't mean you can't make points about the guys you like in the threads. Even if I'm apt to like Dundee better than Yoshino, that doesn't mean I'm uninterested in why a Yoshino fan thinks he's great. For me, there are comparable traits across eras and promotions--how good a guy's offense looks, how well he builds to moments in his matches, how he puts over his opponent's stuff, how he conveys his character through his work--but there's also no question I'm making value decisions about styles. I will probably always find Dragon Gate frustrating, through no particular fault of the individual workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 This is FAR from an exact science and this should mainly be for fun anyway. When you look at logistics there won't be much difference between say #11 on your list to #63 probably anyway. The Top 10 should of course be extremely important I'd say but after that it's a crapshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 27, 2014 Report Share Posted September 27, 2014 And frankly, the point for me will be to be encouraged to see a lot of wrestlers I haven't seen enough of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 28, 2014 Report Share Posted September 28, 2014 Rovert, I posted this in the folder over a week ago: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28930-jumping-out-of-the-bubble/ That doesn't sound like a project that's just wanting to represent "PWO approved favorites". I also defended you in that thread about Prince Devitt and have even banned people from this forum for trolling you in the past. Maybe you've had issues with Will, but I've defended you quite a bit. In addition, I have also asked many times that people stop with the "PWO thinks this" stuff. I don't know why you can't at least try to accommodate that simple, polite request. I'm going to turn the tables. With regards to the problems that you have mentioned with this board, how do you suggest they be fixed? What should I do? I feel like I've said over and over again that anyone should contact me when they have a problem with the board that's making it less enjoyable, and I also feel like I've gone out of my way - some would say pointlessly so - to invite fans of people to post more here that don't really have a lot of fans on this board. More than anything, I want a good board, but more than anything else, I just want as many people to be happy and feel comfortable posting here as possible. Apparently that's not the case and that's too bad. We'll just keep doing what we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 What bothers me about rovert's whining is that it strikes me as a preemptive effort to attack the results of a project he has refused to engage with up until this point. Rather than complaining because someone dared to nominate Jimmy Jacobs instead of other allegedly superior wrestlers (I would note there is something comical about accusations of non-inclusiveness being made by someone attacking the nomination of a peripheral indie guy but I digress), why not nominate the superior wrestlers? If the answer is "they aren't popular here and I don't want to have to defend my nomination," than the accusation of cowardice hardly seems misplaced. Dismissing what I and others have to say as just "whining" kind of proves my point here. If you aren't receptive to what I have posted which was offered with a reasonable degree of substantiation then whatever. I expected this reception from the outset. I won't quote your whole post for space reasons, Loss. But like I said I don't have much of an issue in general with the board, you or the standard of moderation. You can maybe talk sense to Will if he goes off on one. But you can't moderate Matt D following me around on DVDR and making lame Irish jokes, derailing threads and getting others to do the same thing and so on. All because I said someone was respected in their field by their peers. Seriously come on. I'd rather not engage in a project that involves such a person. As well as few others of that ilk as the debates won't be good natured, sincere or without fallout. I know you have made strides to shape it better AND you told me off for using generalities but a lot of the time the board is/was a place that's only open minded within it's own world only. More than anything, I want a good board, but more than anything else, I just want as many people to be happy and feel comfortable posting here as possible. Apparently that's not the case and that's too bad. We'll just keep doing what we do. That's fine and at the end of day it is only Wrestling (just a bit of fun) and I will still enjoy reading PWO. It don't want to be redundant in the points I am making or inadvertently insulting to you Loss while making them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 So a guy with hundreds of thousands of posts on the observer board, doesnt want to participate on the GWE project because he doesn't want to lower himself to the level of Matt D? I know you are trolling, but that's a weak effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 For the record, it was my buddy shawmic who attacked rovert in the thread mentioned. I was giving rovert an open forum to explain why Prince Devitt, respected by his peers, was such a great wrestler. Somebody was defending Tanahashi in one thread against Dylan but he wasn't really propping up Tanahashi but rather arguing with Dylan about personal bullshit. Once the poster went into detail about Tanahashi's strengths in the microscope, the conversation took a turn for the better. I wanted rovert to rise to the occasion, help us close-minded PWO posters understand why we should be checking out Devitt. I even created a Devitt thread in the microscope. Rovert couldn't be bothered. As for respected internet posters like Alan and Naylor. Naylor and I have talked nearly every week for the last 5 years. We disagree about wrestling a lot but it doesn't prevent us from being friends. I have always been friendly with ALan4L and if he has a problem with me or PWO, he has never approached me about it. Maybe my "mod status" is too intimidating. I am sorry that my "mod status" frightens you so much and is so intimidating that you can't give one opinion that is your own except of course to shit on the board you are posting on. Anyway, just in case you missed it, here is the link to the forum where you can give unfiltered board feedback... http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/forum/2-announcements-and-feedback/ Keep this petty persecution complex bullshit out of these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts