Lizmark

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[ohtani's jacket]

Great worker who even managed to overcome the trappings of AAA and have some brilliant matches while he was there, which not too many others can say. Was good for an awfully long time. Along with Solar and Atlantis, one of the great masked technicos of the modern era.

[Gregor]

Lizmark's case is odd in that he doesn't appear on tape regularly until he's about 40 and is still good enough from there on out to make an argument for him on a list like this. His execution is some of the most beautiful of any luchador - Lizmark is to the plancha suicida what Ciclon Ramirez is to the tope suicida. Possibly the best wrestler in AAA, if not all of Mexico, in 1993. For a guy who turned 40 in 1989, we have a lot of title matches from him on tape:

 

vs. Enfermero Jr. (August 1983)

vs. Satanico (April 1984)

vs. Ulises (4/13/90)

vs. Satanico (7/17/92)

vs. Universo 2000 (9/18/92)

vs. La Parka (4/30/93)

vs. Jerry Estrada (6/18/93)

vs. Satanico (9/17/93)

vs. La Parka (7/18/94)

vs. La Parka (9/9/94)

vs. Jerry Estrada (7/9/95)

 

I'm pretty sure that all of these are online except for the first Satanico match. As far as I can tell, the ones with the best reputations are the Parka and Estrada matches from 1993 (personally, I'm not really a fan of the Parka series - I think the Satanico match from '93 is better than any of Lizmark's matches with Parka).

[ohtani's jacket]

The only good Parka one is the first one. The other two have terrible booking. All of the Satanico matches are disappointing. You want them to be Flair/Steamboat, but they're not. I'm sure they must have hit one out of the park at some stage but not on tape.

[elliott]

What is the best Lizmark singles match? I keep waiting for him to really knock my socks off in a classic and it never happens. I liked one of the 93 matches with Satanico but it's not one of Satanico's career best matches.

[elliott]

What do Lizmark fans consider his best matches? Are people planning on voting for him? He shows up once in 1996 and once in 1997 on Loss' "Top 100 Matches of the Year" posts in the yearbook forums. And thats it. What do people voting for him considering his peak?

 

I know there's a match vs Satanico I do like quite a bit from 92 or 93, but all the rest of their matches are really disappointing.

 

As of now, not on my list.

[ohtani's jacket]

Gregor already mentioned his singles bouts. My favourites are the '93 Estrada bout and the '93 Parka bout from Triplemania. There's a couple of different versions of the latter floating about. Try to find the full version. He's a guy you need to watch en masse to fully appreciate and I don't think YouTube lets you do that. I dunno if it's still up, but search for Blue Panther and Lizmark to find a lucha exchange that shows what he was all about.

[Parties]

Enfermero match was solid but nothing that would get someone on a top 100. Looked like Lizmark hooked his feet on the middle rope during a tope. Did anyone else besides Enfermero Jr. (and thus presumably Enfermero Sr.) ever have a male nurse gimmick? It's kind of an odd but inspired heel character.

 

The Estrada match was good, particularly in the thIrd fall. First two has some lax work from Jerry, hitting some really bad strikes and weak armbars. Critiquing Estrada on anything but his dives and bleeding feels silly from what I've seen, but maybe he has moments elsewhere of good matwork? There were points where it looked like Lizmark was watching Japan tapes, hitting an Oklahoma Roll-ish slam, a Northern Lights suplex, and going for a Dynamite Kid top rope headbutt in short order. Highlight of the match by far was Lizmark's amazing plancha.

[Exposer]

Lizmark is good, but I don't know if he makes my ballot. I've liked the 80s stuff I've seen from him, but he's not my favorite kind of luchador. He's certainly a good worker, but there are a lot of other lucha guys I like more.

[DR Ackermann]

Lizmark has been underwhelming in everything I've seen. He has a tendency to telegraph his spots more so than I've come to expect in lucha and his timing seems off. He always seems to be explicitly waiting like hes going through a checklist and rushing into position way to early so he doesnt miss his spots.

 

I like Atlantis a lot more and probably made a mistake not including him on my ballot.

[ohtani's jacket]

Can you give an example of a match where you felt Lizmark was particularly underwhelming?

[DR Ackermann]

Lizmark, La Fiera & Kung Fu vs Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala & Jerry Estrada (2.27.87)

 

Negro Casas, Emilio Charles Jr. & Bestia Salvaje vs Atlantis, Lizmark & Ultimo Dragon (7.31.92)

 

I don't think he's bad by any means, but from the praise you've given him I've expected much more and haven't seen anything that has made me say, "OK this guy is great."

 

I'm going to watch everything of his that's on the 80s Lucha set but I remember being underwhelmed by the Satanico match and some others from the 90s.

[Jetlag]

I love Lizmark. His stuff strikes just the right balance between graceful and forceful. Many wrestlers with graceful stuff come across a little pretty at times, while Lizmark looks like he is really graceful at throwing people very very hard. I guess a wrestler who's main selling points are great neck bridges + great throws + being great in his role is hard to sell, but he's just what I want from a wrestler. I do remember him botching stuff in some matches, so I can see your point. Still, match with La Parka blew my mind when I first saw it, and at that point I had already been exposed to a lot of high end lucha.

[ohtani's jacket]

I will try to watch those matches later, but it's not unusual for a guy to do nothing in a trios match. There's a slew of trios matches like that for plenty of top lucha candidates. The Satanico vs. Lizmark matches are disappointing. It's a match-up that looks better on paper (and in my head) than in reality.

 

I'm glad there's someone else who loves the Parka match, though. I thought I was out on an island with that one.

[cad]

Man, I used to love Lizmark. I still do, I guess, but it's a more reserved, qualified love than it used to be. He was excellent in AAA as an old school tecnico champion, and that was in his forties. Extrapolate that back to his physical prime in the 1980s, when he gained a reputation for revolutionizing high flying, and a career like that could measure up with anyone's. The problem is that there are a lot of years when there's a lot of Lizmark on video and he isn't doing much for his case, especially that 1989-1990 period when the EMLL had good matches all over. He puts in a good effort every time out, but he doesn't look to light up the ring the way Atlantis always tried to. He has his advantages. I think he was more poised overall than Atlantis, a much more natural actor. As mentioned above, he had a big offensive arsenal, and he meshed those strength moves with high flying and technical work in a way that didn't feel like me just giving my CAW all the best moves as a kid (a la Felino).

I do think that Lizmark was one of the best tecnicos I've seen at carrying himself like a champion. He didn't go into matches looking to gobble up or embarrass his opponents, but he wrestled with the firm intention of looking like the better man. He had moves that the other guy couldn't hope to match, and they had to find their windows through some means other than outwrestling him. His match with Enfermero Jr. had Lizmark building drama against a competent but colorless rudo in the third fall by missing dives, creating the impression that Enfermero was giving himself a chance to win through guile against a superior opponent. In 1993 Jerry Estrada took advantage the first time all match that he won an exchange and just started beating Lizmark up, dogging him relentlessly until the champion could fight him off. Although Lizmark knew how to have an exciting match while working on top, that preference didn't work out so well in the career long series with Satanico that has largely come to define him. It seemed like they tried to have Satanico escape the matches with a win the way that Ric Flair liked to, but without Satanico looking like a threat in the body of the match the way that Flair did, resulting in finishes that made Satanico seem lucky and Lizmark a choker. I wouldn't pin it all on one guy, but it's a lot of blown opportunities for Lizmark regardless. That's a lot of words on a guy who hasn't been talked about here in years. Anyway, I still have a lot of appreciation for him, but I'm less certain of his greatness than I was eight or nine years ago.

Some of Lizmark's best work:
Lizmark vs Enfermero Jr.
Lizmark vs La Parka (at the time, this stole the show at the inaugural Triplemania)
Lizmark vs Jerry Estrada
Lizmark, Volador and Mascara Sagrada vs Satanico, Fuerza Guerrera and Parka
Lizmark, Masacara Sagrada, Perro Aguayo and Konnan vs Parka, Cien Caras, Mascara Año 2000 and Universo 2000 (Lizmark vs Parka at the start of the third fall is the best, most realistic brawling I've ever seen from AAA)