Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Paging Dirty White Boy... I feel guilty now. DWB definitely had the corner on that market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 My views on Angle were finally etched in stone when the Observer reported last year that he got pissed at Eddy Guerrero for staying down and selling his suplexes because he wanted him to immediately get up so he could give him more. I made the Angle/Doc comparison, because really, Angle by all means should be the far superior worker, but Doc was much better because he was taught how to work in proper fashion, he learned how to work in more than one style, and he was given far better booking. A good comparison is the way Angle worked with Rey Misterio Jr in the tag matches back in 2002 during Smackdown's "hot streak". Compare that to the way Doc would work with Ricky Morton in Mid South in 1985. Doc didn't no sell Morton's offense, but Morton showed fear and the only way he could get any type of opening on him was to outsmart him or run circles around him. With Rey, Angle works comedy spots and parity sequences more reminiscent of a really bad RVD/Lynn ECW match. In fact, if you go back and compare the tag scene on Smackdown to the tag scene on RAW in 2002, I'm convinced that RAW had the stronger tag division. RVD and Kane had better chemistry than they were given credit for at the time, especially when faced off against a good team. Booker and Goldust are the best babyface tag team WWE has had in ... geez ... 10+ years, probably. Their run wasn't as long as the Hardyz, but they were far more consistent. Vitamin C started off really shaky, but Christian came along quite a bit as a worker teaming with Jericho and working opposite Booker and Dustin every night for 3-4 months. In fact, he worked with them for most of the year prior to that as well, as he did tag matches against them with Christian and Test as partners. Anyway, Jericho and Christian were probably better than every tag team on Smackdown with the exception of Eddy and Chavo, and they may have at that point even been better than them. I would have liked to have seen Los Guerreros against Bookerdust to make a fair comparison. What hurt the RAW tag division was the lack of depth. If not for the roster split, 2002 could have been the year to totally reestablish the tag division for the next 3-5 years after the Hardyz, E & C and the Dudleyz all burned out. Jericho/Christian, Benoit/Angle, Edge/Rey, Los Guerreros, Bookerdust ... they had a good thing going, but they murdered it with hotshot booking and a lack of patience and foresight. I didn't mean to switch the subject to that, but I ended up on a tangent. My apologies. Goddamn, you hit the head on the nail here Loss. Please, be as wordy as necessary with your posts too. You also just reminded me of another reason(s) for why I despise the "legit" brand split: fans *could* have gotten BookerDust vs. the Guerreros and etc. had the bullshit "split" never gone down. Heyman should have been handed the book since no one in that company had (and still doesn't) a clue how to book. Vince is not a booker but a lucky, lucky, lucky 3rd generation wrasslin promoter who snatched up Hulk Hogan at just *the* right moment to kick off his wrestling takeover bid. Vince owes most, if not all, of his success to Hulk. Hogan doesn't owe Vince a goddamn thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I was pissed that they killed BookDust after only a few weeks as tag champs because they were desperately trying to get Lance Storm and William Regal over as a tag team. I think Bookdust was the best face tag team they had since the Hart Foundation and Rockers broke up. I have to admit. I never bought into the Rock as a good wrestler until his matches with Benoit in 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Rock isn't a good wrestler though. He has some of *the* best body language in the WWE, aside from guys like Austin and Attitude era Vince. That's where the Rock makes up for his short comings as an in-ring worker. Plus, it doesn't hurt he's got some chutzpah when he's speaking on the mic or interacting with the fans at just the right moment(s). Other than that, his selling was shit, his moveset was shit and his title reigns were (unfortunately) shitty runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Heyman should have been handed the book since no one in that company had (and still doesn't) a clue how to book. I think Heyman the booker is overrated. During his short tenure he blew through almost a year's worth of matches with the Smackdown Six and also never properly blew it off. And no matter what excuses he makes he had a lot to do with the Al Wilson crap. I think if the WWF wanted competent booking they'd give Flair and Arn the book and have Ace in charge of every finish for matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Benoit upped everyone's game in the company in 2000. Good matches weren't even all that important anymore because Russo had taken the company in such a drastically different direction, and Benoit came in and suddenly people started taking more pride in the quality of their work, not just on the mic. HHH was hilarious, immediately spinning it that Benoit was overrated but very capable of being carried, and being made to look like a fool for ever saying so and quickly shutting up about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CanadianChick Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I actually didn't really like the RVD/Kane team because they were too formula for me. 1)Match starts with Rob doing his even-steven stuff with smaller guy of the other team. 2) Kane gets tagged in to kick a bit of butt and tags Rob back in. 3) Rob does a couple of moves before heel team cheats to get an advantage 4) Rob is face in peril 5) Kane is tagged in and cleans house 6) Rob is tagged back in to finish match OR 7) Rob tags Kane back in to finish match. At least with a Rob/Rey team, you didn't correctly pick who'd be the face in peril everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I think Heyman the booker is overrated. During his short tenure he blew through almost a year's worth of matches with the Smackdown Six and also never properly blew it off. And no matter what excuses he makes he had a lot to do with the Al Wilson crap. I think if the WWF wanted competent booking they'd give Flair and Arn the book and have Ace in charge of every finish for matches. Al Wilson was Steph's call. She, along with Vince, was also the one who told Heyman how long/fast/slow he could book the SD! 6 feuds and matches, which *no one* could ever benefit from in their weekly format minds. Give Heyman *full* control of the book is what I insinuated since Steph has had control of all booking orders since late '00. A booking team of Heyman, Cornette, and Flair with *no* McMahon interference or "okay" from Vince would be wrestling nirvana, I promise. From top to bottom, no WWE card would suck if those 3 had full control of the company booking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 HHH was hilarious, immediately spinning it that Benoit was overrated but very capable of being carried, and being made to look like a fool for ever saying so and quickly shutting up about it. HHH might take the cake as the most unprofessional asshole ever in wrestling. I've never seen someone go out of his way to badmouth guys better than him or to badmouth guys he had to job to when he was still a mid-carder. I bet he sits awake at night trying to figure out how he can get the Ultimate Warrior back in the WWF so he can beat him in under 12 seconds. Might as well add HHH to the list. I think he's sucked for his entire career except for about 4 months in 2000 and 2 months in 2001. Even during his good points I've found his knee based offense to be hard to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Johnny Ace in the Pat Patterson, along with Corny, Heyman and Flair as bookers, could put on great wrestling shows for years to come. Goddamn it Vince... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I actually didn't really like the RVD/Kane team because they were too formula for me. 1)Match starts with Rob doing his even-steven stuff with smaller guy of the other team. 2) Kane gets tagged in to kick a bit of butt and tags Rob back in. 3) Rob does a couple of moves before heel team cheats to get an advantage 4) Rob is face in peril 5) Kane is tagged in and cleans house 6) Rob is tagged back in to finish match OR 7) Rob tags Kane back in to finish match. At least with a Rob/Rey team, you didn't correctly pick who'd be the face in peril everytime. But, that's just the typical big guy/small guy way of working tag team matches. Little guy makes a mistake and gets pounded on while his big guy tag team partner is dying to get in and save his partner from the heels. Rey and 911 are probably one of the most off-beat teams to ever work this formula back in their ECW days too. I could see where the big guy/small guy tag team forumla might be off-setting though, mainly due to it's cookie cutter match lay-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Oh yeah... Kevin Sullivan. Like anyone should fear a guy they could just stand up and pee on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Damn it you edited your response. I don't know about Sullivan. If you could buy Tazz he's probably believable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Giant Gonzalez, the guy was so uncoordinated that he essentially waddled when he walked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Oh yeah... Kevin Sullivan. Like anyone should fear a guy they could just stand up and pee on. If you are going to mention Kevin Sullivan then there is no way you could exclude Bill Dundee... unless of course you put the two against each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 According to their Obsessed With Wrestling Bios Sullivan has a solid 4'' on Dundee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Here's why I find Taz more believable as a threat to someone in a match as opposed to Sullivan or Dundee: he used his low center of gravity to his advantage and dumping guys on their heads with T-bone Suplexes just looked "real" to me since Taz was this beefed up looking little guy who was also tough as nails too. His finisher, a choke, was one of the most ingenious finishers I thought Heyman ever helped one of his ECW crew members to come up with. All Taz had to do in a match was to lock that baby onto some poor hapless sonuvabitch and the match would be over. Taz could have gotten over in any era, any company, and that's why he's a leg breaker who I think doesn't get enough credit for establishing an in-ring game, like fellow leg breaker brothers Bret Hart and Chris Benoit, who also knew how to break guys down. While Sullivan and Dundee played to their strengths by having garbage matches at certain times, along with being incredible mic workers, it was Taz who didn't need the use of weapons or cheap heel tactics to win his matches and look "real" afterwards. He was a straight up ass kicker and that's what good wrestling normally entails, weapons be damned. Bigger guys could, and should have, held off the impish attacks of Sullivan and Dundee as opposed to someone like Taz who only needed one chance to jump onto their backs and slap on the Tazmission for the inevitable win. Honestly, aside from Taz's jackass moments of no-selling, he was a better in-ring worker and mat tactician than many people give him credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 It also helped that a lot of ECW guys were "normal" looking as opposed to gassed-up WWE giants, so someone like Taz looked bigger because he was buffed out compared to most of the roster. It wasn't until he went to WWE that he looked like an oompa loompa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 "It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog that does." While Dundee and Sullivan had *plenty* of fight in them during matches, I still think Taz came off as a more convincing ass kicker. While your point has merit Sek, I'm looking at Taz as a leg breaker along the same lines as Bret Hart and Chris Benoit, two undersized guys who would manage to somehow break down their larger opponents, convincingly, and easily, while looking legit in the process. They went into a match with one goal in mind: break this bigass motherfucker down. Taz, like Hart and Benoit, had this quality in spades and all he'd have to do in order to win a match would be to jump onto the backs of Nash, Sid, the Giant, 911, Kane, the Undertaker, and Albert or whoever, and slap on the Tazmission for the win, barring any squirming around or body bashing Taz into the turn buckles repeatedly. This is something I always felt Taz got overlooked for unfairly. He's a better in-ring tactician than he gets credit for by fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Oh yeah, two more guys: Greg Gagne and Mike Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Shane McMahon too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I can't believe I forgot Greg Gagne. He's one of the biggest embarrassments ever in wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Greg Gagne I agree. I think pushing Gagne helped hasten the demise of the AWA as much as anything else. Embarassing physique... vanilla matches... unbelievable finisher.... ridiculous push. After watching the NWA guys and WWF guys destroy people who looked like Gagne week after week on TV, how in the hell can you take this guy seriously? Greg Gagne = Vernon Deaton/ Lee Peek/ Alan Martin Mike Graham I know nothing about him except he was in Florida. Why is he on your list? Shane McMahon too. From a physical standpoint, Shane was ok. Still, seeing him take these joke bumps and appear two weeks later on TV without a cast or a scratch was horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Graham falls under the Sullivan and Dundee "too incredibly short to be taken seriously/not a convincing leg breaker" argument I have. Plus, I never saw anything from Graham to suggest he was even a smart in-ring worker, unlike Dundee and Sullivan who were good in-ring workers, height issues be damned. Honestly, I feel bad for even lumping Sully and Dundee in with Graham but that's how shit goes for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Larry Zbyszko as AWA champ. I was a young mark and was only watching the AWA sporadically around this time and when I found out he was champ my jaw dropped. The guy looked like an accountant or a pro golfer around that time and he was champ? Never bought it. Greg Gagne of course. Verne Gagne when he would still work the occasional match in the mid 80s. Noticing a pattern here. The AWA in the 80s/early 90s was filled with guys like these, no wonder they went out of business Stevie Richards getting the big push in 97. No matter what Paul did he was still the same Stevie that got beat up by woman and had the build of Pauly Shore. I'm not saying he was a bad wrestler but just didn't buy him as a top guy that could all of a sudden go toe to toe with Terry Funk and Raven. And I was a big fan of Stevie. The WWF's attempt to make Hercules a top face in 1988 was pretty pathetic. He had the right look but looked out of place around Hogan, Savage, Dibiase, etc. Jeff Jarrett in WCW 2000. It's interesting that when this topic is brought up, Eric Embry's name is almost always mentioned. I've never really understood this but that could because I was a big fan of his as a kid and didn't know any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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