Who are the top 10 lower mid-carders in history?

[JerryvonKramer]

And where will they rank for you?

 

Interested.

[Timbo Slice]

Kikuchi worked a lot down in the card. Most of Japan's juniors, actually.

 

Mid 90's WCW luchadors.

 

i understand why this thread was made, Parv. I know you're trying to prove a point. My point is that card placement doesn't really matter in the end.

[goc]

There is a big difference between "doesn't matter" and "shouldn't disqualify someone from the list." It definitely matters which is why the list of nominees is mainly guys who worked at the top of the card.

[Childs]

I basically agree with Parv that card placement matters in the big picture. But this feels like a strawman, given that few people are arguing for lower midcarders. I do expect plenty of guys to make the top 100 based heavily on midcard and upper midcard work. So I'd say card placement matters less once you get past a certain point.

[BillThompson]

Top 10

 

Dustin Rhodes (He spent time as an upper mid-carder and even flirted with the main event at times. Still, he was mainly a solid mid-card to lower mid-card guy for the majority of his career)

 

Steven Regal (Perhaps I'm stretching with this one, but I've never felt he was pushed as an upper mid-carder as most companies seemed to view his ceeling as mid-card and that's where most of his feuds were placed)

 

Top 30

 

Bobby Eaton (the argument could be made that his Express run is a main/semi-main run, but I love his singles work as well and it will play a large role in where I rank him and in that role I've only sever seen him as a lower mid-carder)

 

Mascarita Dorada (He's always been pushed as a top Mini, but that in and of itself is only a mid-card position, at least in all my experiences with him that's as high as I've seen any of his programs go)

 

Top 50

 

Matt Hardy (I suppose one could try and peg him as a main eventer since he was in the main event consistently for OMEGA, but I think that's a rather large stretch)

 

Top 75

 

Fit Finlay (Maybe he was an upper mid-card guy in the UK, but I haven't seen any of that work. I've only ever seen him as a lower mid-card guy)

 

Timothy Thatcher

 

(Similar to Matt Hardy I guess someone could argue that he main evented for APW, but it's APW. Whenever he's ventured into a larger indie he's been a lower mid-card to mid-card guy at most)

 

Yoshihiro Tajiri (I can see others saying he was upper mid-card in ECW, but I always felt he was just mid-card. In WWE he was lower mid-card, and everywhere else he's been he's never been more than mid-card)

 

Top 100

 

Little Guido (I don't think he was ever higher than lower mid-card at any point in his career)

 

Psicosis (There may be some AAA with him on top that I've missed, but in everything I've seen he's been firmly in the mid-card position)

[JerryvonKramer]

I made this:

 

 

Because I don't think some people have the same definitions in mind as me.

 

NB. No idea how to classify Snuka at that point, lower? Small oversight.

[Grimmas]

The list will be skewed towards main eventers, because they have more opportunities to have great matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

Isn't that like saying that the guys who make the reserve squad aren't given a chance to have great games in the NFL?

 

If not, why not?

[Gregor]

Psicosis in AAA was more than a midcarder. I wouldn't call him a main-eventer, but he feuded with and even defeated El Hijo del Santo (albeit unconvincingly).

[Strand Peanut]

Isn't that like saying that the guys who make the reserve squad aren't given a chance to have great games in the NFL?

 

If not, why not?

There's a reserve squad in the NFL ? I thought there was just a practice squad ? Maybe just terms, but I havn't followed the NFL closely this season and last. If it's still the practice squad.. That'd be more like TV enhacement talent. TBS Saturday Night Style. You're there to help make people better.

 

And maybe get a spot in the battle royal / special teams, ha!

 

Actually as a side note, I remember Bobby Beathard was kind of a genius with hiding raw talent on the practice squad back in the 70's and 80's. Keep em there cheap, have them learn and develop your way, see if they can make the squad. The massive amount of video and scouting now makes that pretty difficult to pull off.

 

I think I'm still talking about wrestling..

 

Anyways, a point, for this thread was alluded to earlier. What is it ? I like talking bout card placement, but if this is just some proving ground for someone's arguement.. context would be nice.

[W2BTD]

Opportunity & being put in a position to deliver great matches obviously plays a factor. It isn't "fair", but at the end of the day these guys produced what they produced.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Isn't that like saying that the guys who make the reserve squad aren't given a chance to have great games in the NFL?

 

If not, why not?

There's a reserve squad in the NFL ? I thought there was just a practice squad ? Maybe just terms, but I havn't followed the NFL closely this season and last. If it's still the practice squad.. That'd be more like TV enhacement talent. TBS Saturday Night Style. You're there to help make people better.

 

And maybe get a spot in the battle royal / special teams, ha!

 

Actually as a side note, I remember Bobby Beathard was kind of a genius with hiding raw talent on the practice squad back in the 70's and 80's. Keep em there cheap, have them learn and develop your way, see if they can make the squad. The massive amount of video and scouting now makes that pretty difficult to pull off.

 

I think I'm still talking about wrestling..

 

Anyways, a point, for this thread was alluded to earlier. What is it ? I like talking bout card placement, but if this is just some proving ground for someone's arguement.. context would be nice.

 

I guess I was more talking about being a second or third choice wide receiver or something like that. You're still part of the main roster, but don't always start and don't always see playing time.

 

I get why people are making the argument that card position doesn't matter because they want to protect one or two of their favourites who might be special cases.

 

I'm still waiting for that top 10 list. No one has one? And don't give me Bobby Eaton.

[Strand Peanut]

 

 

I guess I was more talking about being a second or third choice wide receiver or something like that. You're still part of the main roster, but don't always start and don't always see playing time.

 

I get why people are making the argument that card position doesn't matter because they want to protect one or two of their favourites who might be special cases.

 

I'm still waiting for that top 10 list. No one has one? And don't give me Bobby Eaton.

I don't think the NFL is an apt analogy.

 

I really don't get why card placement matters in such a subjective poll? Especially when people are talking about top 100's.

 

Granted, I waded into this, and am not overly familiar with the project's ground rules.

 

Almost everyone has worked the mid-card in the business at some point. Going up, coming down, or staying there. And you can't ignore the power of the pencil in the business.

 

And no one's gonna give you a top ten. I mean.. just howling into the wind. Is there no other way to frame your discussion point than this ? Feels kinda sideways..

 

Main event status, and money, are always part of the conversation. But just part. Wrestling fandom has proven that time and time again.

[pol]

Apologies if I'm inferring the wrong context here since I don't know where this thing originated, but I don't understand why this matters. Why would I defer to the wisdom of a booker over my own personal taste?

[Grimmas]

Isn't that like saying that the guys who make the reserve squad aren't given a chance to have great games in the NFL?

 

If not, why not?

Depends on the person. Regal is great, but Triple H sure had a lot more opportunities to look great.

[JerryvonKramer]

I sense a lot of old smart fan axes to grind in the stance.

 

"Oh it's a travesty that Eddie vs. Malenko wasn't the main event when that egomaniac Hogan was hogging all the limelight, wah wah"

 

There's also this smarky sense of thinking you always know better than the booker, that great workers were always held down by lesser talents etc. etc.

 

It's a narrative that I'm very sceptical of that comes from shoot interview culture and the WON down into fandom.

 

And yet, despite all these theoretical objections, I still see no top 10 lower midcarders list.

[Childs]

Parv, I'm not sure what or whom you're really arguing against. Unless you're suggesting that a midcarder such as Arn or Regal couldn't outrank Hogan (which I don't think you are), what's the point? I get that you think people are foolish to say card placement is completely unimportant, and I agree with that. But past that, the 10 lower midcarder thing feels like something you created just to fight about it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't want people saying with a straight face that "card placement doesn't matter to me" when it obviously does.

 

Regal and Arn both had many many chances to have 20+ minute matches with something significant on the line (e.g. TV title), they were parts of feuds and angles that were featured. They were given real mic time. They weren't lower midcarders, even if Regal has spent portions of his career there.

 

This thread is simply there as a reminder that whatever anyone says card placement does matter. The failure of anyone to produce a top 10 list of lower midcarders is proof of it.

 

Also, all this talk and not a single Brad Armstrong mention? No one has even made a fist of it.

 

Point is that if anyone is *that* good, they tend to get moved up the card sooner or later. Eddie and Jericho and Rey and Benoit all became world champs.

 

And it's those guys who get more attention.

 

And still no one is talking about the lower card guys. I made a thread for them. Here's a space for it. But no, let's stick to hypothetical talk of world-beating lower midcarders, rather than actual talk of them.

[Childs]

Let me twist the question back to you a little. Would you automatically rank Harley above Arn because Harley was NWA champ and Arn was never a true main eventer?

[BillThompson]

I don't want people saying with a straight face that "card placement doesn't matter to me" when it obviously does.

 

Regal and Arn both had many many chances to have 20+ minute matches with something significant on the line (e.g. TV title), they were parts of feuds and angles that were featured. They were given real mic time. They weren't lower midcarders, even if Regal has spent portions of his career there.

 

This thread is simply there as a reminder that whatever anyone says card placement does matter. The failure of anyone to produce a top 10 list of lower midcarders is proof of it.

 

Also, all this talk and not a single Brad Armstrong mention? No one has even made a fist of it.

 

Point is that if anyone is *that* good, they tend to get moved up the card sooner or later. Eddie and Jericho and Rey and Benoit all became world champs.

 

And it's those guys who get more attention.

 

And still no one is talking about the lower card guys. I made a thread for them. Here's a space for it. But no, let's stick to hypothetical talk of world-beating lower midcarders, rather than actual talk of them.

 

 

All this hot air and you ignore a post I made where I detailed the groups I would place mid to lower mid card guys in for my top 100. All in all though, it seems like all you're doing is building a strawman, and I really have no interest in that sort of debate.

[Goodear]

This whole argument is confusing to me. I don't think its completely crazy to say Wrestler A does a better job of fitting his role as a midcarder than Wrestler B did as his role as a main eventer. Certainly more main eventers are going to be in a top 100 of all time but I don't see why you wouldn't include some of the best "supporting actors" as well.

 

I don't know why you would make the opposite argument other than to have an argument.

 

Best Lower Card Guys I Can Think of Off the Top of My Head since I don't have a running list...

Tito Santana (post Strike Force)

Chris Masters

Haku (WWF)

Little Guido

Tom Zenk

Terry Taylor

Greg Valentine (post Dream Team)

The Berzerker

Scott Norton (WCW)

Ernest Miller

[JerryvonKramer]

Let me twist the question back to you a little. Would you automatically rank Harley above Arn because Harley was NWA champ and Arn was never a true main eventer?

I'd say it's a bit disingenuous to make Arn the poster boy for midcarders, because he enjoyed a level of visibility and success in his career that most midcarders could only dream of. Horseman, Flair's sidekick, greatest tag wrestler ever, never slid down the card like Tito or Greg, and so on. Arn is a bad example of a midcarder.

[Grimmas]

I still don't get this.

 

Card placement matters for the main reason is opportunity. Main Eventers get more opportunities to have big matches at the top of the card, but why is that relevant?

Nobody is ranking Triple H above Psicosis, for example. Nobody is ranking Great Khali at all or Sid, while we have threads discussing Jim Brunzell and Brad Armstrong.

 

Sure, the top guys on the list may be at the top of cards, but who cares? It doesn't mean that being at the top of the card means you get placed above people on lower cards.

 

I'm confused.

[Childs]

 

Let me twist the question back to you a little. Would you automatically rank Harley above Arn because Harley was NWA champ and Arn was never a true main eventer?

I'd say it's a bit disingenuous to make Arn the poster boy for midcarders, because he enjoyed a level of visibility and success in his career that most midcarders could only dream of. Horseman, Flair's sidekick, greatest tag wrestler ever, never slid down the card like Tito or Greg, and so on. Arn is a bad example of a midcarder.

 

 

It's not disingenuous. I'm asking you how far you'd go in weighing card placement as a factor. Again, I'm on board with the idea that greatness generally correlates with strong card placement. But it's not a 1-for-1 correlation. Sid was always higher on the card than Regal, but I can't imagine many would argue Sid was better.

 

So I'm asking you, as the guy who has stirred this pot, to explain how you'll factor card placement.

[Childs]

 

 

Card placement matters for the main reason is opportunity. Main Eventers get more opportunities to have big matches at the top of the card, but why is that relevant?

 

I don't want to put words in Parv's mouth, but I think he's arguing that main eventers don't simply stumble into those opportunities. They earn them by being great. And as a corollary, he's arguing that most wrestlers who were truly great earned strong card placements. So practically, it's rare to find career lower-card workers with strong cases for this list.

 

Broadly, I agree with that line of thinking, though it has its limits, given the number of stiffs who've been thrown into main events over the years.