Wrestling Culture Episode 63

[puropotsy]

On Episode 63 of the Wrestling Culture podcast, Dylan and I return to talk the historical and current developmental system of WWE.

Sorry it's in two parts.http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=112658&cmd=tc

[Timbo Slice]

Damn, this has been a really good week for podcasts.

[Dylan Waco]

Had some annoying audio issues at times with bad echo, though it never lasted more than thirty seconds are so (That I could tell). Also I lost internet on the back end, so the last twenty minutes are so are skype to phone, i.e. worst audio quality. That said I thought the show itself was really, really good. We covered developmental as a concept going back twenty-five years, talking it's evolution, successes, failures, et. and concluding with the prospects for the future of NXT.

[The Chief]

I'm learning so much here, this is such a cool topic. Developmental has always fascinated me going back to reading PWI as a kid and wondering why WWF guys were working in other companies. Seriously, this is great.

 

EDIT: wow, totally remember HWA as the WCW dumping ground. You would always hear about OVW online and in publications, but you almost never heard about what was going on in Heartland. Wasn't Kronik also assigned to Heartland after their PPV disaster?

[bradhindsight]

Both parts at PTBN as well:

 

http://placetobenation.com/wrestling-culture-podcast-63-the-history-and-current-state-of-wwe-developmental/

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Damn, this has been a really good week for podcasts.

Was thinking the same thing. The hits just keep coming.

[kjh]

I really think the strength of this podcast was the thoroughness in covering everything that could be considered as falling under the developmental prism (including ECW, ECW v2.0, original NXT, etc). Very good overview of WWE's developmental history!

 

One Paul Heyman guy you really should have mentioned (unless I switched off) is Santino Marella. I know Dylan touched on the irony of Heyman taking over from Cornette in OVW, but the cherry on top of the ice cream sundae of that story is how Paul E turned Jimbo's slapping boy into heavily pushed faux Russian shootfighter Boris Alexiev, a gimmick copied on the main roster for Vladimir Kozlov and later Rusev.

 

I think they kept the HWA onboard after buying WCW mainly because Lawler was persona non grata after he walked out of WWE when they fired his wife Miss Kitty (so they ditched MCW as a developmental territory) and also a place for all the (mainly ex-WCW) talent to go that they were doing nothing with.

 

OVW lasted longer than most because Danny Davis didn't rock the boat and their attempt to set-up a replacement backfired royally the first time. It's ironic that the spawn of the great Satan, Batista, burying his OVW training to his masters likely was the first nail in OVW's coffin, but it took a long time for WWE to hammer down the lid due to their own incompetence.

 

I think what a mess Deep South was undersold. It wasn't just that Bill DeMott was an abusive trainer. He was also a divisive figure as I think he quickly formed opinions on the talent and looked after the guys he liked, whilst held grudges against those he didn't. But a bigger part of the problem from WWE's perspective was likely Jody Hamilton being unwilling to spend a dime on the place so the facilities were terrible and not wanting to run a local house show circuit because the shows would lose money (more understandable - partially WWE's fault for wanting developmental on the cheap). It didn't help that old school Hamilton wouldn't write a TV script in the format Stephanie wanted it, which at least Paul Heyman knew how to do. I suppose at least WWE learnt the lesson from DSW that if they wanted it done their way that they at least needed someone who knew the WWE system in charge.

[Matt D]

I'm up to ECW vol 2 on this and I'm enjoying it. A few comments.

 

1.) It's probably unnecessary but given some of the other feeder systems mentioned, I think the Kowalski camp/Chaotic Wrestling might have earned 20-30 seconds. Mizdow, Palmer Cannon, Chad Toland/Dick, Antonio of the Heartthrobs, Nowinski (I think he went there after tough enough), Kenny Dykstra, Kingston, Mickey Keegan, and probably others I don't know about (EDIT: like Sasha Banks).

 

2.) I think you guys bypassed the "NEW TALENT INITIATIVE" branding in ECW vol 2, though you mentioned some of the guys they used there, but it was actually presented that way on screen.

 

3.) The biggest thing I potentially take umbrage with is the Triple H/Vince issue. I get what Dylan was saying, that Hunter was the one who, for years, would cut the legs out of rivals and what not, but what I'd like an opinion on is the idea that the star/stop booking was a side effect of the guys who left in 2002-2004, maybe most especially Lesnar, and it was very much a spiteful Vince thing having to do with making sure that no "superstar" would be bigger than the WWE brand ever again. Maybe Hunter benefited from that, but it always felt like much more of a Vince thing to me, with Hunter's power plays being more of a 1999(and earlier) 2004 sort of thing and maybe not so associated with the start-stop pushes, etc.

[WrestlingPower]

Some more clarification regarding the various Memphis groups based on my memory and a tad bit of research.

 

MPPW was the first one in 1999 to use developmental talent. That's where Baldo, Angle, O'Grady, etc. were. I think when Lawler's relationship with WWE soured over Stacy, as mentioned above, led them to move the talent to MCW, which was already up & running. Terry Golden ran that and Bobby Eaton was a very short-lived trainer there. Not sure the timing of all that but MCW was the primary one by early 2001 at least. The Hass Bros, Reckless Youth, Island Boys, Steve Bradley with Victoria, Mean Street Posse, etc. worked there at the time. The Regal/Danielson match in question was early 2001. Sometime soon thereafter Lawler mended fences with WWE and the same talent worked MPPW TV and MCW shows. I'm fuzzy on the details of whether those were kept separate promotions but soon there after they pulled the talent from Memphis completely as those same guys ended up in HWA with the WCW guys.

 

Re: HWA, Les Thatcher hasn't owned it since 2003 per Cagematch.net.

[Johnny P]

I've mentioned this to Dave and Dylan privately over the weekend, and they encouraged me to post here and add the info:

 

Something that was not mentioned/slipped through the cracks, is Pennsylvania Championship Wrestling, which used WWE talent in the late 90s as something of a training ground to get work in, I assume. Truthfully, I'm not an expert on this topic, and the reason I know it at all is because a teenage Johnny P. went to several of their shows over this period, and also remember getting some background on this via internet resources at the time (we're talking 1997-1999 time frame). PCW was run by an attorney named Blaine Desantis, who told me over email at the time that he'd started the promotion in part to do something with his teenage son after Blaine and his wife (I assume the son's mother) had divorced. They appeared to be well run and promoted shows for an indy. I went to my first in, I believe, the fall of 1997. Here's their info - he had said that once his son went off to college he'd probably wind it down, and it looks like that ended up happening:

 

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=8&nr=106

 

I'm trying to isolate the first time I went to see a show, as I know it was at the Cloisters in Reading (fun little venue), that it was very much a family show, and that I went because I wanted to see Reckless Youth & others I'd read about via the Indy rankings of the famed (for old heads like me) Whoooo Wrestling internet site. I didn't have a licence, and I remember I begged my mother to take me to my first two shows. I reached out to Blaine via email about getting involved in some way because I 1.) loved wrestling so much and found it an escape I was actually interested in/motivated by, & 2.) did not yet realize how shady the business actually was at the age of 16.

 

Somehow Blaine ended up doing business, or at least being affiliated with, Jim Kettner's ECWA. It makes sense. Both were know for being family-oriented shows, run like businesses, that used local guys, and never had intentions of taking over regions, getting TV, or going national. Both also had a rep for being good dudes who saw it as a very involved hobby. And they ended up not only sharing local talent, but somehow using early WWF developmental guys that seemed to be primarily from the Dory Funk "Funkin' Dojo Conservatory." I remember seeing Edge and Christian as Christian Cage & Sexton Hardcastle, hilariously in a group with Reckless Youth that was an obvious rip off of DX (some this was post August 1997, and was my first show). Unfortunately those cards aren't listed on Cagematch, nor is 1998 (where I saw more cards from PCW where the loose relationship with WWF was taking shape.) I know that Val Venis was in before his run as Venis (Sean Morley, but I don't believe he was calling himself Venom), and I know that people like this, and long forgotten washed-out talent, were also placed here AND on ECWA shows during this time period. The card I'd point to is Feb. 5th, 1999. This was an 18th birthday present for me - the day before my actual birthday - and had a lot of WWF involvement as far as talent. you can see Tom Howard on the card, as well as Glen Kulka & The Truth Commission (no idea if those specific guys were still under deals though). You have Mideon, and Giant Silva. Flash Flanagan, who was still being looked at at the time. The big one for me was Dr. Death Steve Williams was there against Pierre Ouellet. I believe that was the match where Dory Funk "cornered" or managed Williams, as they were getting ready to bring him into WWF. Another highlight was Kurt Angle vs Steve Bradley, both with high hopes within WWF at the time. I DO NOT remember any of the main event, but apparently Michael Hayes was there as Dok Hendricks, doing some shtick as a match with Lance Diamond (the future Simon Diamond in ECW, accompanied by his finance/valet at all these shows, the future Dawn Marie).

 

Anyone feel free to add what they remember to fill in gaps. You might notice Reckless Youth vs Mike Quackenbush on the same show, as they were maintains, as were people like Don Montoya. Later in the year you can see results for cards featuring The Mean Street Posse and Joe E. Legend, both WWF entities at the time (I believe). They ended up moving to the Hamburg Fieldhouse (yep, Piper, Snuka, and the Coconut) and I attended some of those, but I don't think they ever ran at Ag Hall in my hometown (WWF's other TV taping site, which I grew up a few blocks from). For some reason they'd fly in Mike Modest and even Roland Alexander once or twice as a heel manager, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one on Whooo Wrestling at the time. lol. In fairness, I'd guess Desantis paid only a portion of those flights, if anything.

[WrestlingPower]

Dylan is not crazy, Dan Spivey was an uncle (I think) to someone in FCW at some point but don't know who.

 

RE: PCW/ECWA. When I was doing my public access show in the late 90s here, we met Lance Diamond & actually filmed our show from the bar he worked at. We wanted to see him wrestles so hit up PCW in Reading in late 1996 I believe at the restaraunt you mentioned, Johnny. After the show at dinner I sat across from Reckless (who didn't work the show) and I was disappointed to still not have seen him work after all the Whoo & Jess McGrath hype. Soon thereafter the ECWA/PCW thing really started up as Lance I think put Kettner & Blaine in touch & Blaine drove out to a lot of ECWA shows at the time. This was most definitely during the Dory Funk/Tracks era of training guys in CT. I have several ECWA, PCW, and WWA (Kowalski) tapes from that time frame using dev. talent. ECWA put their belt on Christian Cage on his first night in. I think at that point they were just looking for a loose affiliation with anyone established & running shows to put their guys on within driving distance of CT. This led to Kettner interviewing for backstage jobs and the time frame where Kevin Kelly was booking ECWA while in WWF, but that's going off on a tangent.

[Tim Evans]

Some more clarification regarding the various Memphis groups based on my memory and a tad bit of research.

 

MPPW was the first one in 1999 to use developmental talent. That's where Baldo, Angle, O'Grady, etc. were. I think when Lawler's relationship with WWE soured over Stacy, as mentioned above, led them to move the talent to MCW, which was already up & running. Terry Golden ran that and Bobby Eaton was a very short-lived trainer there. Not sure the timing of all that but MCW was the primary one by early 2001 at least. The Hass Bros, Reckless Youth, Island Boys, Steve Bradley with Victoria, Mean Street Posse, etc. worked there at the time. The Regal/Danielson match in question was early 2001. Sometime soon thereafter Lawler mended fences with WWE and the same talent worked MPPW TV and MCW shows. I'm fuzzy on the details of whether those were kept separate promotions but soon there after they pulled the talent from Memphis completely as those same guys ended up in HWA with the WCW guys.

 

Re: HWA, Les Thatcher hasn't owned it since 2003 per Cagematch.net.

Lawler had a falling out with Randy Hales and left sometime in 99/2000 and took the WWF guys with him. Lawler joined Kick Ass wrestling but then they turned into MCW. MCW was gone by spring 2001 and the guys that were left(Rocker, Kevin Thorn, Spanky, Danielson I think the Littles) invaded PPW for a short time but PPW was done by the time WCW went out of business.