Biggest drawing NWA World Champion

[MoS]

I did not want to derail the thread about the different working styles of NWA World Champions, but I am curious as to who, according to historians, is the best drawing NWA World Champion of all-time.

 

I realise that comparing drawing across various eras is difficult, but this seems an easier task than comparing Austin and Bruno as draws, which a lot of discussions have done. Principally because the job of the NWA World Champion largely remained the same for 4 decades, while the job of the WWWF Champion during the 60s and the WWF Champion during the Attitude Era was radically different.

 

My wholly uneducated opinion had always said that Flair drew the most as an NWA World Champion, ut considering he was essentially JCP World Champion for the second half of the 80s, that is probably incorrect.

 

So, who are in the upper-tier of NWA World champions in drawing ability? Who performed abysmally and were utter failures?

[Strand Peanut]

As far as drawing in pure volume, there are only a few names to discuss. Thesz, Flair, Dory, and Race.

 

All purely based on time with the belt.

 

Buddy Rogers was an incredible draw by all accounts, but his actual time as NWA champion isn't long enough.

 

Is Dick Hutton the biggest failure? Maybe Garvin?

I don't remember if he was an active touring champ.

 

I'd stick to the guys who were on the road a lot. Don't think a Tommy Rich or a Bobo Brazil belongs in the conversation to me.

[Ricky Jackson]

I've seen it written (probably Meltz) that Flair was BOTH the highest drawing champ (1980s) and the lowest drawing champ (early 90s)

[MoS]

I do not think counting the 90s would be really fair, seeing how the NWA was less than a shell of its former self. I am more interested in how Ric in the 80s compares to other NWA World champions. And while longevity is certainly a factor, I would also like to know which wrestlers' peak as draws was the highest. I am assuming it was Buddy Rogers, but how does Dory at his peak compare to Flair at his peak?

 

I confess that when I talked about worst-performing world champions, I was thinking of Dick Hutton. Garvin was no Hulk Hogan, but I do not think he was ever put in any meaningful position to succeed and draw.

[Strand Peanut]

NWA and WCW sever ties in late 1993. At which point would one place the cut off mark ?

 

When Flair leaves for the WWF would be my inclination. But I can see arguements for earlier.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I could be wrong but I think Flair as the highest drawing champion from 81-85 is true and it is from 86-90 he is the lowest. In the 90s he had runs in 91 and 93 with the belt, but WCW title upon its inception in early 91 was pushed as THE belt.

 

How much of the Fujinami deal was to remind people these were two separate belts? I really don't see the motivation for Flair/Fujinami at all. Early 1991 WCW is just so directionless.

[thebrainfollower]

Those years are what I heard too Sleaze, though I've heard 86 put in the highest, not lowest, drawing category.

[cm funk]

My initial instinct is to say Lou Thesz, without question, but it's an interesting conversation to have

 

Surprised Jack Brisco's name hasn't been mentioned yet. Not the biggest, but he was a big draw

 

When I look at this subject and the history of the NWA title.....I look at touring champs and the guys who were most in demand around the horn by all the various promoters.....

 

I can see the argument for Flair in the 80's.....but the business and the country was very different.......comparing Thesz and Flair's peak years as draws is almost apples and oranges

 

I can see why Buddy Rogers is mentioned.....huge draw....huge star.....but not as NWA champ exactly. He was more of a rebel/renegade guy.....him and Pat O'Connor at Comiskey for the NWA belt was a record drawing crowd that stood for 20+ years.....but his time on top in the NWA was too short and fraught with difficulties to think of him in this conversation

[MoS]

I have always been curious about Lou Thesz as a draw. From what I understand, he was a very consistent draw, and had great longevity, but his peaks were not particularly great.

 

I also sort of dislike him for being so petty and jealous about a lot of wrestlers. Someone once said that you could gauge your success by Lou's feelings for you: if you were successful, Lou was automatically jealous and resentful of you, and bad-mouthed you as much as he could. He is certainly not the only wrestler who has done that, but seeing how he is considered the pre-eminent authority on all things wrestling pre-60s, his jealousy and pettiness have been more insidiously harmful than most others. I also sometimes think that he did not really understand what pro wrestling was about, judging from his thoughts about Buddy Rogers. Who cares if Rogers could not hookyou with a legit wristlock as well as Thesz could? He was a huge draw, and that is what really matters.

 

Anyway, sorry for the tangential rant. How does Lou compare to Ric and Dory in drawing ability?

[Al]

I'd actually make my cutoff year 1986. By 1987 you've got Flair touring Japan for a week, but making the rest of his defenses entirely within Jim Crockett Promotions.

[alexoblivion]

I don't think Lou was the only petty "old timer". I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that they rarely ever had something complimentary to say about another wrestler, and if so, it was somewhat begrudgingly. Rogers also had a terrible reputation amongst other wrestlers. Even by the late 70's when Flair worked with him, he was not well liked. Curious about Brisco and Kiniski as draws during their reign as well.

[MoS]

Lou was not the only petty old-timer, but because he became the final word on wrestling in his era, and because so many people feel he is the greatest wrestler that ever lived, his pettiness gets magnified, with people quoting him to "definitively" prove why Buddy Rogers and Ric Flair are horrible wrestlers. That is what I meant.

[UKWildcat]

I do not think counting the 90s would be really fair, seeing how the NWA was less than a shell of its former self. I am more interested in how Ric in the 80s compares to other NWA World champions. And while longevity is certainly a factor, I would also like to know which wrestlers' peak as draws was the highest. I am assuming it was Buddy Rogers, but how does Dory at his peak compare to Flair at his peak?

 

I confess that when I talked about worst-performing world champions, I was thinking of Dick Hutton. Garvin was no Hulk Hogan, but I do not think he was ever put in any meaningful position to succeed and draw.

 

I've always heard that about Hutton as well.

 

And agree with your take on Garvin. Worst booked champion ever. Ridiculous decision on Dusty's part.

[cm funk]

Garvin is a fascinating discussion on it's own, but relevant to the topic of where the cutoff point for the NWA champ being what it used to be was, and I agree that 87 is the year. 84-86 the champ is still working towns for other promoters and there were still towns to work. In 86 Flair defended a lot in Florida, mostly against Luger but also Windham. In Continental in Bama/Knoxville wrestling Bob Armstrong a couple times, Puerto Rico, in Quebec for International against Martel, Central States, PPW in Hawaii, in the AWA against Hennig, he even made a trip to the Pacific North West. Crocket was in complete control of the title, but he was still sending the champ around to all the other promoters. In 85 he was still going to Mid South and Dallas before Watts and Fritz split fully from the NWA. By 87 Flair was rarely defending the belt outside of Crockett towns.

 

As far as Garvin goes.....I can't even call him the worst booked champ because he was booked exactly for what he was......a transition champ from Flair to Flair because they needed a big draw for Starrcade that year as Vince had counter booked the first Survivor Series for the same night and they decided Flair chasing the belt was a bigger draw than him defending it. Also, before that, Crockett bought the UWF in April, and as the UWF was being folded into JCP Dusty wanted to put the belt on Rick Steiner at Starrcade who he was extremely high on as a way to kickstart the UWF invasion with a bang and got shot down by Flair and Crockett. So then the idea was a short term switcharoo with Flair.

 

The thing with Garvin is, in a different era I could maybe see him as one of those short, disputed, unrecognized false finish-rematch champs in his hot town or city that the NWA did so many times in so many places, they could have done that with him in Montreal maybe.....but never anything more than that. The idea that a national promotion like the NWA back when all the promoters were involved and had voting rights and veto power on the belt on a guy who was only a big draw in 3 or 4 places .....that just never would have happened. But he was never meant to be a touring, drawing champion. He was a warm body. And according to Garvin himself the transitional champ role was offered to guys and turned down......he was not their first choice, but he was respected and trusted and he wasn't going to get the belt and take it to Vince which was definitely still a concern at that point, Flair liked him, and he'd drawn well with Flair in some key Crockett towns. I'm interested who the other choices were who either turned it down or were vetoed. I've never really heard that come out, and if it has I don't remember it.

[Strand Peanut]

I'd actually make my cutoff year 1986. By 1987 you've got Flair touring Japan for a week, but making the rest of his defenses entirely within Jim Crockett Promotions.

Is the national work by JCP out of bounds for Flair as NWA champ ? 88-89 is the period I'm thinking of.

 

I don't understand the arguement for Brisco's inclusion, but will certainly listen.

 

No one is throwing out hard numbers.. but if there's some boundaries.. I'm happy to try and collect numbers..

[Strand Peanut]

Why should Buddy not be included ?

 

He toured. He was of the NWA system. He's a part of the story as much as Hutton. He's not transitional, or a phantom switch. I know there's business around the Thesz match and NYC splitting off.. but I don't quite get it.

 

Would love to hear more.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's Matt Farmer's list of Brisco's 10,000+ gates:

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000499;p=0

[cm funk]

 

I'd actually make my cutoff year 1986. By 1987 you've got Flair touring Japan for a week, but making the rest of his defenses entirely within Jim Crockett Promotions.

Is the national work by JCP out of bounds for Flair as NWA champ ? 88-89 is the period I'm thinking of.

 

I don't understand the arguement for Brisco's inclusion, but will certainly listen.

 

No one is throwing out hard numbers.. but if there's some boundaries.. I'm happy to try and collect numbers..

 

 

- yes, because the NWA was dead by 88-89, and it was all Crockett towns and Ted Turner owned shows. Maybe Flair went to Japan once or twice in those years, but.....

 

the NWA and the territory system was dead and buried, it was the NWA title in name only

 

- I mentioned Brisco because nobody had yet. He was a big draw. Definitely not the biggest, but I thought his name should be mentioned

[Ricky Jackson]

Business actually slumped in most of North America during Brisco's reign after record setting years during Dory's run, but the reasons for the slump had nothing to do with Jack. A lot of places were burnt out on the blood and guts booking of the early 70s for one reason

[Matt Farmer]

Are we just talking about the National Wrestling Alliance? Because if you want to include the National Wrestling Association you open up huge draws like Jim Londos and Bill Longson.

 

It's hard to say who was the best but Gene Kiniski is left out of the conversation and he was one of the top four or five. Ahead of guys like Brisco and Terry Funk for sure. Pat O'Connor was a big draw too, but not in comparison to Buddy Rogers.

 

Buddy's short run was huge at the box office. Even though he worked in the Northeast often he still set records in Washington DC, Chicago, St. Louis, Vancouver BC, and some other markets that are not associated with huge business.

 

Thesz had some remarkable years as champion. He did set box office records in many markets like Los Angeles, Houston and St. Louis and was one of the more prolific travelers too. A lot of the champs "went home" and worked their sponsored territories where Thesz really didn't have one.

 

Flair was an excellent draw as NWA champion when he was a touring NWA Champion, and he did travel a lot too. I don't know if Flair's 82' to 85' run is better than Buddy Rogers two year run. And I don't think any NWA Champion had a better two year run than Buddy.