Quentin Skinner Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 A lot of people are going crazy for the 8/30 Dragon Lee vs Kamaitachi match. That was just all out craziness. Just an awesome match and maybe over took Angel Del Oro vs Polvora as my favorite CMLL match this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 A lot of people are going crazy for the 8/30 Dragon Lee vs Kamaitachi match. That was just all out craziness. Just an awesome match and maybe over took Angel Del Oro vs Polvora as my favorite CMLL match this year. Best march built around crazy spots I have seen in maybe forever. Top 5 match of the year for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Definitely the best match of their series. There was basically no sloppy spots and there was no goofy stuff (like pop ups and one counts) that some of the prior matches had. It is well worth watching all of their matches in order because they do a great job in building spots match from match. Below MOTYC for me but a ton of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I can't decide if DL-Kamaitachi is the best feud of the year or the final death knell of lucha. But it's awesome either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I can't decide if DL-Kamaitachi is the best feud of the year or the final death knell of lucha. But it's awesome either way. The final death knell of lucha? Because of how spot heavy it was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 The way Kamaitachi finally countered that big apron hurricanrana to the apron powerbomb had me going crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 The way Kamaitachi finally countered that big apron hurricanrana to the apron powerbomb had me going crazy. YES! That spot made the match for me jump from good to kickass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I can't decide if DL-Kamaitachi is the best feud of the year or the final death knell of lucha. But it's awesome either way. The final death knell of lucha? Because of how spot heavy it was? The mixture of spots and general New Japan-style of selling. That was pretty much a sarcastic comment, but their matches do have an American indie quality that's very un-"CMLL like" in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 It's fine because it's off to the side. It was the same thing with the Busca last year. Yeah, people were going nuts for it and just by looking at the online fan reaction, it could have screwed up the whole house style, but at the same time there were a bunch of matches up and down the card that had the traditional CMLL feel and once it was over, that became far the norm, to the point where I almost feel like they were trying to work all the Busca matches far more traditionally this year. It's CMLL. Old Faithful for good or ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yes, it was a spot fest, but it was a spot fest in a different manner. There was time for selling and there was breath between the spots. Every promotion goes into a spot fest mode from time to time, but very few promotions let it take over for too long. At least this type of spot fest was very different and unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Also, and I could be wrong on this, but I think that the biggest draw in Arena Mexico is nostalgia. So long as that's the case, this will be more of a welcome blip and a momentary change of pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted September 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Man, I feel like I need to watch that match again because literally EVERYONE is praising it and I just wasn't feeling it. I enjoyed all their previous matches more. It's so tedious to criticise a spotfest for being such, but it really felt very empty to me outside of the cool moves. I didn't get any sense of escalation from minute 5 to minute 15 of the third fall which is so crucial to that kind of match. They just did spots until it was time to go to the finish (which was itself underwhelming compared to what had come before). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted September 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Enjoyed it much more on rewatch. They did a really good job of positioning the biggest spots so that they were big transitions rather than just one in a sequence of moves. Both guys could've sold better while on offense, but overall I did get a much better sense of escalation than I did on first viewing. Dragon Lee's indie-style selling with all the flipping and flopping around is one irksome quality of a largely really exciting and charismatic wrestler. I don't think I'd go MOTYC or even the best match in their feud (it's between this and the mask match though) but it was very good for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 My curiosity lies in whether they've got a hair vs. mask match left in them. This match was utterly ridiculous in a manner that even exceeded their first bouts. These guys are REALLY dumb. Like, I love it but MAN were some of dumps in this cringeworthy. Why would they do this to themselves?! Kamaitachi going back to Japan only to get Desperado'd is going to be a real sad day. I may actually cry. Also, CMLL being booked like the shits means this will never be the IT style in the promotion. Not that this is a tremendous style, it is a spotfest afterall. It just seems that Lee vs. Virus is maybe the best match I would associate with being more in line with a CMLL style and without Virus having that belt we aren't getting big title matches even a couple times a year in that vein. What I'm saying is, I wish CMLL was booked less haphazardly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted September 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 In fairness Desperado has had pretty underwhelming showings ever since returning to NJPW, although you can probably pin some of the blame there on first being a babyface and then benig associated with Suzuki-gun and its accompanying bullshit. I think the mask hurts him too - very few guys are able to work with a mask that covers the entire face and mouth without losing something in the charisma department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 I thought he was real good in Mexico under the mask, probably not as good as Kamaitachi currently but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Kamaitachi has been far more impressive in CMLL than Namajague was so it is probably not a perfect comparison. I do think New Japan had big plans for Desperado. In his first 3+ months back in Japan, he got to debut on the Tokyo Dome, received an immediate junior title match, starting teasing a mask match with Liger, and starting teaming with Ibushi. He didn’t do much with the opportunities. Even then they turned him heel, put him with Suzuki-gun, and booked him in junior title matches (tag then singles) in September and October. I think it was less than New Japan didn’t push him and more that he didn’t make much of the opportunity in the ring. Based on their respective CMLL work, I have more confidence in Kamaitachi working out once he returns to Japan. The big thing is I think they should keep him unmasked. New Japan has a poor recent track record of pushing masked wrestlers. They very quickly have gotten lost in the shuffle. I think they run the risk of Kamaitachi being viewed as another middle of the pack masked junior if he comes in masked unless they do something extraordinary with him (like winning Liger’s mask). As for the CMLL style stuff, the dial has been moving in this direction for years now. Far more title matches are worked in a sprint/big spot style than are not. I really don’t agree that stuff like the style of Kamaitaichi/Dragon Lee is “off to the side”. The traditional lucha title match style is the exception now more than the rule. The difference is that Kamaitaichi and Dragon Lee are better at working a fast paced, high octane style than many of their peers. Their spots are as good as anyone’s, they build match to match and within the match, they sell (particularly in this latest one), ect. All else being equal, I prefer the traditional lucha title match style more. I also think there is more than one way to go about things and that guys should work to their strengths. I would much rather see Lee and Kamaitachi wrestle an all-out match that plays to their strengths instead of doing some obligatory and mediocre mat work because they feel they have to. Same goes for their mask match. I’d rather not see them stumble through an okay brawl because they think that is how apuesta matches should go if the alternative is a good high impact match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 I wasn't really referring to the title style as the brunt of what CMLL puts on is non-title trios. I do agree that title matches are usually 1.) feeling out process leading to a fall after a few minutes 2.) a very quick segunda usually with a flash pin, and 3.) 10+ mins of bombs/dives/near-falls with laying around selling. So that I agree with. It's just that most of what CMLL's output isn't title matches and I think a lot of their trios matches aren't worked in the Dragon Lee/Kamaitachi way. That's what I was referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 I wasn't really referring to the title style as the brunt of what CMLL puts on is non-title trios. I do agree that title matches are usually 1.) feeling out process leading to a fall after a few minutes 2.) a very quick segunda usually with a flash pin, and 3.) 10+ mins of bombs/dives/near-falls with laying around selling. So that I agree with. It's just that most of what CMLL's output isn't title matches and I think a lot of their trios matches aren't worked in the Dragon Lee/Kamaitachi way. That's what I was referring to. Oh okay, I agree with that. The trios style definitely not changed significantly over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Regarding Kamaitachi/Dragon being a spotfest, I feel that is a very surface level take. The reason I loved the match so much is because it's not what it appears to be. They are working off of their previous encounters, building on an already high sense of escalation, etc. This is an example of a match that is a spotfest without the context of their feud, but with said context it's not a spotfest but the natural progression of what they have been doing in building/working their feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted September 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Since Kris brought it up on the WasimCast: why aren't CMLL guys like Dragon Lee getting more US indie bookings? I assume the answer is simply 'indie promoters aren't paying attention to what's going on in Mexico', since it took Lucha Underground for AAA guys to start getting booked. That seems like an indictment of them since you'd think they should be staying afloat of that sort of thing. I can't imagine the expense of bringing them in is such that it can't be justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Also, and Kris can correct me if I'm wrong, but CMLL guys don't usually come up North all that much. As far back as I can remember it's always been AAA guys getting booked on the US indie scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 I felt like mentioning earlier that I thought that RoH should go through NJ to get CMLL to let them run a touring match version of DL-Kamaitachi at All Star Extravaganza. I think that a big part of it with CMLL which is much less of a problem with AAA (though it's kind of insane to see the third or fourth rebirth of Jack Evans: Indie Superstar which can only be explained by LU) is the lack of foreigners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 CMLL guys were booked more than AAA guys in the early 2000's.. When Gary Juster was running his shows in 2004, he used a bunch of CMLL wrestlers at his shows in North Carolina and Atlanta. Gabe Sapolsky's reluctance towards Lucha probably kept more CMLL guys from getting some bookings in ROH. Ultimo Guerrrero, Rey Bucanero, Shocker, etc. would have been great fits in 2003 ROH style. Quackenbush used indy guys like Skyde and when they brought Navarro in for the 2009 Delaware Lucha show, Navarro was apparently uncooperative and pissed Quackenbush off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 How can a match with something like 20 high impact moves and bugger all transitions not be a spotfest? It wasn't a bad match, but even if they built off their previous matches it was still spotty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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