Meltz updates the Smackdown title situation:

[Guest Cam Chaos]

I am not encouraging Rey to get bigger. I don't think he should be bigger.

 

I just think that at the size he is, he isn't a legitimate contender for the World Title.

Mike Tyson was less than 6" tall, did that stop him becoming World Champ?

 

Shawn has held the belt in recent times despite being about 190lbs, around the 40 year old mark and he is just over 6", is he not a credible guy to put the belt on?

 

Height shouldn't dictate a person being rewarded for his hard work.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Fedor would kill anyone who steps in the ring with him. He's a heavyweight. The more skilled fighters get, the more size DOES matter. Of course, he also has love handles and male pattern baldness, so he may not be a good example in looks dept (or an excellent example depending on your POV).

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Yes but by the same token Fedor is less Chris Masters and More Trevor Murdoch in terms of physique. Also now we are straying too far into MMA.

 

My point is that if in real competition the little guy can beat the big guy (Tyson in the early 90s in boxing, Marcelo Garcia at ADCC against Ricco, BJ Penn vs Matt Hughes, Genki vs Butterbean, Minowa vs Kimo, Royce vs Akebono which is as close to Rey vs Big Show as you can really get etc) I don't see why a little guy can't beat a bigger guy in a worked situation and what makes it so unbelievable to so many.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Cause wrestling is a visual medium?

[anarchistxx]

Tyson was beating opponents with KO punches, anybody can be put down or be hit with a hard punch and feel the effects.

 

I'm not sure the same can be said for a hurricanrana, or indeed moves such as the West Coast Pop- how are we supposed to believe that a 280+ pounder is going to fall on his back because Mysterio jumps on his shoulders.

 

Plus, Tyson wasn't dwarfed size wise, not height wise, by any of his opponents.

 

HBK is a lot bigger, or appears to be a lot bigger than Mysetrio. Plus, his finisher is a kick which can be considered devestating whoever it hits on.

[Loss]

I don't think it's fair to blame the fans, Vince has the hard on for big muscle guys. Smaller guys have successfully gotten over everywhere else. Fans in WCW bought the smaller guys because they weren't having roid monsters pushed down their throat.

Fans in WCW didn't buy the smaller guys. They chanted for the NWO when Juventud Guerrera was facing Billy Kidman on more than one occasion. You can't place 100% blame on the promoter, when part of what they're doing is giving fans what they want. Fans that don't even suspend disbelief when they watch anyway, yet complain about champs not being "credible" because of their size, is needless.

[Loss]

Also, the huracanrana was being used as a move even before wrestling was worked. I do think all the wrestlers use the ropes too much, jumping off of them and doing too many running sequences. There's no law that says you have to avoid them or anything, but I like the way guys like Benoit or Regal think where they try to touch the ropes as little as possible when working a match.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Tyson was beating opponents with KO punches, anybody can be put down or be hit with a hard punch and feel the effects.

 

I'm not sure the same can be said for a hurricanrana, or indeed moves such as the West Coast Pop- how are we supposed to believe that a 280+ pounder is going to fall on his back because Mysterio jumps on his shoulders.

 

Plus, Tyson wasn't dwarfed size wise, not height wise, by any of his opponents.

 

HBK is a lot bigger, or appears to be a lot bigger than Mysetrio. Plus, his finisher is a kick which can be considered devestating whoever it hits on.

Tyson was outweighed and outreached in many fights, he just also happened to be an angry powerpuncher with a great coach who led him to glory. You're still missing the point. The little guy can and does win from time to time against bigger stronger guys. Rey is musclebound for his size so while he can't get bigger, that doesn't mean they can't present him as getting better.

 

Most of us accept it wouldn't look credible for him to use the WCP against bigger guys which is why many of us have said how a submission finisher could work. Hell, give him the Lasso from El Paso in tribute to Eddie.

 

Many others kick people in the face on WWE TV with side kicks, big boots, jumping knee smashes, jumping shin kicks to the face but these rarely lead to pins... yet somehow a 190lb dude can kick more effectively and with more power than others who outweigh him that perform the same move, by simply extending his leg towards his opponent's jaw after stomping on the ground a few times to "charge it up" so it's not like other wrestler's side kicks. Given the fact that in terms of kinesiology that is highly unlikely (not enough power could be generated by simply extending your foot into someone's chin. Unless the person was running chin or temple first towards the spot where your heel would be there's very little chance of a standing side kick to the chin KO. It'd be more believable if he kicked them in the side of the head with his shin/instep or did a big boot into their chin instead. Tomko's finisher is more believable but banal in this respect), I don't see how HBK beating guys like Kane via kick to the jaw would be different from Rey using the WCP on Taker or Funaki monkeyflipping Burchill around the ring.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Fans in WCW didn't buy the smaller guys. They chanted for the NWO when Juventud Guerrera was facing Billy Kidman on more than one occasion.

But do you think that was *just* because of size, or because the nWo were more intesting characters then Juvi and Kidman?

[Guest SweetMama Scaat]

But thats back when he was dirty Kidman who didnt bathe and had exzema. 7 YEAR ITCH~!

 

 

To recap for those jus joining us, the point which Cam and others, including myself have made is that A)Small guys CAN and have beaten larger opponents If booked properly Rey could be a worthwhile Champion and C) Theres no reason that he could not be.

 

 

Somebody please exlpain to me in detail, why Rey would not work as Champ. Dont jus say "hes short" or any crap like that, Write me an essay please. Nobody has yet to make a truly credible argument stating this. All thats been presented reeks of prejudice. What makes yall think that the masses would not support Rey, That the creative team (sans vince) and the guys in the lockeroom would not cooperate with the shows top draw? Most of all WHY do YOU not buy him in matches VS Larger opponents? Weve discussed giant killing, submissions, and jus plain physical fighting ability. What would convince you that these bouts with Rey and whoever could be as realistic as any other wrestling match and help you suspend disbelief and be overly entertained by the product.

[Loss]

Fans in WCW didn't buy the smaller guys. They chanted for the NWO when Juventud Guerrera was facing Billy Kidman on more than one occasion.

But do you think that was *just* because of size, or because the nWo were more intesting characters then Juvi and Kidman?

I'd say it was both, most likely. I'm not saying they weren't over at all, but they were midcard over because they were pushed to be midcard over. Guys like Jericho and Guerrero got more heat than their smaller peers around that time because they had the total package of charisma and interview ability to go with their ability to have exciting matches, but the reason they never got a chance on top was that people internally said they were too small, a mindset that needs to go away now. There are many cases, however, of the promoters trying to get smaller guys over and the audience rejecting it. Think Austin & HHH v the Hardyz. The Hardyz were over and were a money-drawing tag team, but no one bought them going against Austin & HHH. Admittedly, the booking didn't help, but the fans expect a certain type of main event body that Matt and Jeff just didn't have, which is also part of the reason the feud was a failure.

[sek69]

Some of you are giving the impression that you're being deliberately obtuse in this discussion.

 

You can't compare wrestling to boxing or MMA here because (since it's worked) wrestling has its own laws of physics that fans have just accepted over the years. In boxing, either guy is one punch away from winning a fight, no matter their size. You catch someone dropping their guard for a second and you can knock them the F out if you have the skills. Same with MMA. In wrestling, we've accepted that guys will bounce back off the ropes if thrown into them. We've accepted that moves that cause 2 second tap outs in MMA can be 5 minute restholds. We've accepted that pulling the back of someone's tights and exposing their ass gives you the needed leverage to hold someone's shoulders to the mat.

 

It's also been accepted that little guys can beat big guys on occaision, but doing it on a regular basis isn't seen as credible. I don't see top guys like Taker or HHH putting over a small guy on a regular basis without some type of overbooking to make the small guy's win look like a fluke. I don't see Vince giving a small guy a serious title run, and I don't see the current WWE writing team being able to sell the fans properly on buying small guys beating big guys without the big guys looking like chumps.

 

No one is saying that we don't think small guys like Rey are capable of being world champion, I'm just saying I don't think the politics of wrestling would allow what would need to happen to make it credible.

 

I don't know if this is sufficent for the essay Q requested, maybe I'll go back and double space it and add footnotes.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Some of you are giving the impression that you're being deliberately obtuse in this discussion.

 

You can't compare wrestling to boxing or MMA here because (since it's worked) wrestling has its own laws of physics that fans have just accepted over the years. In boxing, either guy is one punch away from winning a fight, no matter their size. You catch someone dropping their guard for a second and you can knock them the F out if you have the skills. Same with MMA.  In wrestling, we've accepted that guys will bounce back off the ropes if thrown into them. We've accepted that moves that cause 2 second tap outs in MMA can  be 5 minute restholds. We've accepted that pulling the back of someone's tights and exposing their ass gives you the needed leverage to hold someone's shoulders to the mat. 

 

It's also been accepted that little guys can beat big guys on occaision, but doing it on a regular basis isn't seen as credible. I don't see top guys like Taker or HHH putting over a small guy on a regular basis without some type of overbooking to make the small guy's win look like a fluke. I don't see Vince giving a small guy a serious title run, and I don't see the current WWE writing team being able to sell the fans properly on buying small guys beating big guys without the big guys looking like chumps.

 

No one is saying that we don't think small guys like Rey are capable of being world champion, I'm just saying I don't think the politics of wrestling would allow what would need to happen to make it credible.

 

I don't know if this is sufficent for the essay Q requested, maybe I'll go back and double space it and add footnotes.

I think you've hit the nail on the head that North American WWE fans have been groomed to believe in wrestling physics and the importance of height and huge biceps thanks to guys like Hogan, Andre The Giant and Billy Graham. However my point remains if something can happen in a real situation where the little guy wins over the big guy why is it so hard to believe a little guy could win against a big guy when everything can be arranged and booked to perfection? Should realistic possibility never invade wrestling because of a bunch of silly unspoken rules that people adhere to even though they defy all other laws of sense and physics? Just because a bunch of silly rules exist within pro wrestling doesn't mean that they can't be bent, broken or ignored sometimes for the purposes of entertainment. The Montreal incident, Sandman blinding angle and Lita/Hardy/Edge are recent proof of that.

 

No one is saying that we don't think small guys like Rey are capable of being world champion, I'm just saying I don't think the politics of wrestling would allow what would need to happen to make it credible

I think this is the most important part. It's not that it couldn't be done or it wouldn't work, people are simply convinced, both internally and externally, that smaller pro wrestlers are terminally bound to remain away from the top rung. However Jericho, Benoit and Guerrero were all cruiserweights who eventually went onto hold the championship and it worked because the fans were re-educated to view them as heavyweights after the moved from WCW. If Eddy and Benoit could be booked and win against Big Show and Kane respectively as they have been in the past, what's the real difference between them and Rey? How would it be that different from Shawn Michaels taking out younger 300lb 6'6"+ guys when he's 40, 6" and 200lbs?

[sek69]

For Rey in particular, his problem is his height. Benoit and Eddy were lighter weight guys, but at least they could go face to face with the big guys and not be eye level with their kneecaps. I think that's Rey's biggest handicap in the eyes of the WWE writers/bookers/Vince himself.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

That's partly because guys like Jericho, The Dudley Boyz, Benoit and Eddy wore lifts. I think Jericho stopped using them after he botched a lionsault though.

 

Rey having the belt would be a great opportunity to draw kids in with the would probably lead to some decent writing and creative booking. If the Cruiser strap wasn't such a joke Rey could have held that on and off like he did in WCW but unfortunately that belt is worthless right now.

[sek69]

Even with lifts, Rey would still be way short unless he wore boots with some Gene Simmons KISS style elevation.

 

He's really, really short. Like inches away from being considered a midget wrestler short. That's why he won't be seen as a credible world champion by most of the audience. It would be like putting the strap on Little Beaver.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

I thought Rey was 5'6" and midgets had to be less than 4'6". He's a foot away from that. He's about the same size as some of the Divas and Tazz.

[sek69]

I thought he was shorter than that. Either way, comparing him to the Divas and Tazz kinda proves my point, heh.

[Coffey]

Taz worked good as the ECW champ. Not to say that I'm pro WWE-champ Mysterio but Taz did grab and hold my attention in ECW. I even watched him win the title from The Franchise at Guilty As Charged.

 

I think Taz is taller than Mysterio though. I think Rey is 5'5" & Taz 5'7". Of course, two inches isn't a big deal. That being said, no one thought Taz was a cruiserweight.

 

Although, to add more fuel to the fire, Taz was almost as short at Rey and he won the World title. Taz also had a submission finisher that was played up as death.

[Mad Dog]

Rey's more like 5'3''. I've stood next to him before and I towered over him at 5'10''. But even Benoit, Malenko and those guys are probably more like 5'6'' to 5'8''.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Let me put this in perspective.

 

My mom is taller than Rey.

 

I think the WWE should have weight classes. Cruiserweight (up to 210), Middleweight (210-230), Heavyweight (230 up). Tag division is open weight.

 

Usually whenever you have a much smaller guy beat a much bigger guy, the much bigger guy sucks and has little to no skills. MMA recognizes this now, which is why there are weight classes. I'd take a medium skilled heavyweight over a highly skilled featherweight any day of the week. Tim Sylvia would obliterate Lil Nog.

[Loss]

I thought Rey was 5'6" and midgets had to be less than 4'6". He's a foot away from that. He's about the same size as some of the Divas and Tazz.

Rey is 5'3". Eddy was only 5'6". Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho are 5'9".

[Strummer]

You know it's weird, I'm 6-4 and probably dwarf most wrestlers (non hoss) but because of their larger than life personas, their physiques and TV magic they seem much much bigger. I mean it doesn't seem to make sense (and I think that's a positive thing) that I'm several inches taller than Chris Benoit or Tazz but I buy them as total bad asses that could kill the common man (no matter how tall)

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Let me put this in perspective.

 

My mom is taller than Rey.

 

I think the WWE should have weight classes.  Cruiserweight (up to 210), Middleweight (210-230),  Heavyweight (230 up).  Tag division is open weight.

 

Usually whenever you have a much smaller guy beat a much bigger guy, the much bigger guy sucks and has little to no skills.  MMA recognizes this now, which is why there are weight classes.  I'd take a medium skilled heavyweight over a highly skilled featherweight any day of the week.  Tim Sylvia would obliterate Lil Nog.

The idea of a middleweight division is unneccesary as they use the IC/US beltholders in that sort of capacity. I believe the WWE cruiser limit is 215 but since most of the weights are worked it's not really an issue.

 

I'm taller than Rey by 2 inches but if he has already beat big lower tier guys why not upper tier guys? What's so different between JBL and Luther Reigns next to Taker aside from the hype and investment?

 

On a side note, Tim Sylvia doesn't have the technical striking or ground game of Lil Nog and would probably be tapped out. Also, Sakuraba vs Randleman is proof medium skilled heavyweights don't always dominate even in MMA.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

You know better than to cite Kevin Randleman as a legitimate example

 

Tim Sylvia would crush Lil Nog. Technical striking mean dick nothin when you're a foot shorter and half the dudes weight. So what if Lil Nog connects, he won't have enough power behind the shots to do anything. The reach advantage is sick. Nog has a great shot, but he wouldn't be able to (a)get in close enough to be successful, and even if he did (b)good luck taking him down once he gets his hands on him. And if he gets a guillotine choke, which is unlikely, Tim could easily pick him up 7 ft in the air and drop him down.

 

The IC/US titles are secondary titles. They mean nothing. There's nothing to differ it from the world title. They're shit. A middleweight title isn't a secondary title. It's there for a reason. A middleweight title can headline a PPV, while the US title can't.

 

JBL has been a world champion. Luther Reigns hasn't. World Champion suggests a certain high level of ability. The same applies to Big Show. They aren't the equivalent of Akebono, they're the equivalent of Heavyweight champions.