superkix Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Okabayashi vs. Kamitani (7/24/16) sits comfortably in my top 3 matches of 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Trevor Lee vs. John Skyler (9/7/16) This is from CWF Mid-Atlantic. In a high school gym somewhere. Long feeling out process and a lot of stalling to start. Some pretty old school (as in 70s) mat sequences now centred on head lock vs head scissors. Lee targets fingers, shoulders and wrist. Match stops again. There's an awful lot of down time here. Lee goes for the ankle now. This has all been very bitty so far. Lee stamps on the elbow and back on the arm with a chicken wing. Not a double one, not a crossface one. Just a basic chicken wing, huh. Should be happy I guess. Shades of Jim Breaks now as Lee snaps back the wrist but Skyler reapplies the headlock. Several strikes and a spear on the apron by Skyler now. Something about this match doesn't seem like it is happening so far. They go outside, brawl in the crowd a bit. Is the ref going to count or what? Skyler goes for a piledriver outside but it gets reversed ... that spot happened in basically every single Harley Race match I watched. That piledriver never hits, ha ha. Struggling to get into this. Abdominal stretch from Skyler. Octopus by Lee. What is this Inoki cosplay? Lee gets the crossarm breaker on. Skyler manages to escape and stomps. Strike exchange now. Kick to the same arm he's been working all match from Lee. Slingshot spear by Skyler. This has been on the dull side. Double stomp from the top onto the left arm by Lee. Deadlift German for two. That was good. Don't really think Skyler's selling has been up to snuff here. A better wrestler could have sold this arm for all the world. One detail for example, on his comeback moment, he does a shoulder charge with the left shoulder -- that's just dumb, it's the body part Lee has been working all match. These details count. Think of Rick Rude going for the swivel and not being able to do it. Why did he forget about the shoulder? Super kick by Skyler. Goes for something from the top. Lee gets the arm. They tumble off for a near fall. Looked messy to me. Goes outside. This is so sloppy. Come on. Skyler goes to the knee. Uses rope as weapon Slingshot spear and Lee gets STF tucking in the injured arm for the submission. God. At times this was like watching late 60s / early 70s JWA, very slow going. The throughline with the arm work is there but needed a much much better sell job from Skyler who I was very very unimpressed by in general. Timing, execution, all very sloppy. Didn't particularly care for Lee much better, he did some of the Jim Breaks stuff but not that well. Not very good, and very long for what it was. Yes, it had a coherent story but a match needs more than simple coherence to be good. Didn't care for this one bit. ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 So, guess Parv isn't jumping on the CWF bandwagon. I almost feel bad about this one though he's definitely an exception on Lee. You're going to watch the Misawa vs Hase match soon enough anyway so I'll give you one more free. Just pick something that's not modern NJPW with people hitting each other a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Misawa v Hase is the worst Misawa singles match of the post-TM period. Too bad Parv didn't like Trevor v Skyler. Love it myself, but I've long ago accepted that Parv and I have less in common than Joe Lanza and I do when it comes to wrestling. At least he gave it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I'm very suprised by this rating for Skylar v Trevor as I say Skylar as a real stand out star presence wise here Trevor was about as good as I'd even seen him as well even if I do at times like him more a overbearing bully The Breaks/WoS stuff being called sloppy doesn't seem insanely far off but didn't effect the matches quality for me in the slightest But still I enjoy reading your review as it can't be all sunshine and rainbows for CWF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Just out of interest -- Dylan, Chad, whoever else who is high on the Lee / Skyler -- doesn't it bother you at all that the workers are so unpolished? Dare I say it, even green? I mean, is execution so unheralded now that we are just willing to turn a blind eye entirely to workers who clearly are not the finished article? I got a "but you like Dory matches" comment about this review. Dory was a seasoned pro and NWA champion with one of the most secure grasp of fundamentals in wrestling history, are people really asking me to compare him to John Skyler? Serious question. You simply can't compare that CWF match to something like Dory vs. Inoki, or a 70s Jumbo match, it's barely comparable, because those guys were top-of-the-range. Do people really rate these guys? Do you think Vince should be signing them or whatever? They don't look very good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I fundamentally disagree with the argument that either is unpolished or green. I haven't watched the match in months and didn't review it at the time, but don't remember being bothered by the execution (which admittedly probably matters much less to me than it does to you). This probably wouldn't have been the match I'd have pointed you to as a first look at CWF, but if you didn't like Lee here, it's hard to imagine you liking him at all. His match with Everett is right near the top of my MOTY list for whatever that is worth. As a point of comparison relevant to this thread, I think Lee is vastly better than Shibata in basically every way and I like Shibata. So take that however you will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I asked about the Dory comparison because you rated the Slamboree match ***1/2 where there was a foot of daylight when executing a headscissors in that match. I have never felt watching Lee's matches he is unpolished or green. He seems to have a strong grasp of fundamentals and joint manipulation leading to escalation and violent finishes with strikes being integrated more. Skyler is someone I may be lower on than some as I wasn't too big on his PWX championship reign for example but I certainly think he has a grasp on good fundamentals. I'll say if you thought these two were green, I shudder to think about your opinions on some of the CWF roster that I do think has some character grooves but is a bit green in execution like Ethan Alexander Sharpe. I can't really speak on the specifics of the particular match and recommended it as more of a MattD special when he asked for a 30 minute match but I am willing to go back and look at it as at the time it felt like the perfect resume padder for Lee's 2016 in that this wasn't a match that was inflated to a degree just because of the length of it. Lee is a top 10 worker in 2016 by a good consensus of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I'm happy to watch more Lee. Based on this match though, I'd have him below practically everyone I've seen from NJPW or Evolve from the past year, save perhaps the juniors (who I never like). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Chad, gotta admit, I did an IRL lol at you bringing up 3.5 for Dory vs. Bock at Slamboree. That's more of a unique masestro vs maestro affair, and I'm not sure it would do guys who are 23 years old much good to be compared to two of the all-time greats putting on a greatest hits package in a legends showcase. It's possible it was Skyler pulling that match down more than Lee, but the whole thing felt sloppy as hell. I also couldn't help compare Lee to Jim Breaks when he was doing the limb stuff, and that comparison is only ever going to go one way. I do not want to dick on the guy though, he's young. And possible he has greater performances and matches if he has this rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 That Skyler/Lee match really wasn't that brilliant. Props to them for going +30 and doing a fine job at it, but the match lacked urgency and the work wasn't anything extraordinary. Parv is pretty spot on about Skyler. Also, the fashion choices were horrible. 2 man buns + one guy wearing joshi trunks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Parv check out Lee vs Everett match. I had that as my 2nd best match this year. I find Lee a lot like Steamboat would be in this role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Yeah, sorry. I shouldn't suggest Matt D matches to other people. It, like Jim Breaks comparisons, is obviously a one way road. I just hadn't a chance to see much else yet (I did see Joey Janella 10 minute match on youtube and I liked that. Lee played a fairly different role there. It felt much more like what you get elsewhere in the indies right now, however. The 26 minute match felt much more unique). So when Parv wanted to do a match trade, it's all I had in my belt on the idea that I wanted him to see some CWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Skyler starts out by bailing. This is a smart move to dictate the pace. Opening minutes were fine stuff from an execution standpoint and a table setting stuff. First pop of the ankle by Lee looked brutal and was added by Skyler retreating and Cecil Scott on commentary putting that over as a painful dealing based on in ring experience. Stall tactics that Skyler uses really get heat from him from the crowd. Heat is heat, perhaps I wouldn’t have had him go out there this time but I do think the amount of down time is overstated. This is probably more effective if you have watched the Lee defenses but it really feels like we are setting up for a 40+ minute affair. Just when Skyler thinks he has an opening, Lee goes back to the ankle with the Indian Deathlock. Skyler tries to utilize his headlock as a draining technique but it hasn’t been effective. Crowd is good with a Trevor Lee chant showing they are still with this match. Escalation happens now on the apron which feels logical given the 10 minute mark and we have had some spots beforehand such as the ankle slam, finger pop, and indian deathlock to give highlights to the early portion. Skyler is behind on points and needed a big momentum swing. He gets that with the spear on the apron. Now the midsection is being targeted by Skyler. Side suplex on the bleachers further emphasizes this. A fair critique of this section is that the referee should hypothetically be counting here. I appreciated the piledriver attempt by Skyler right before Kernodle. The reversal gives Lee some time and the countout tease is something I could have done without ala when it happens in New Japan. Skyler’s attack now is really focused and done with a good amount of variety on the stomach. That is not the easiest body part to target. Another Trevor Lee chant occurs. Skyler even setting his head making him susceptible to a sunset flip makes sense here as he has been headbutting the stomach. A really great nugget on commentary that automatically adjusts the audience expectations by stating that if you can’t breathe, it is impossible to have the long matches that Trevor is used to. Skyler gets straddled over the ropes and that gains a nearfall. Really nice dropkick from Lee gives him a hope spot. We are 20 minutes in and I haven’t felt it has dragged at all. Trevor locks on the STF for a brief moment as that has been a finisher from him in recent months. Abdominal stretch was a natural progression given the target of Skyler. He adds little touches by hunching over more than normal and grinding the elbow. Trevor gets a good reversal of this into the Octopus focusing on the bum arm that was the focal point in the beginning of the match. Good reversal by Skyler to a Finlay roll and senton which again focuses on the stomach. Skyler’s cockiness gets the best of him and the cross armbreaker counter of the senton was a good reversal in theory but not executed in the best manner. Trevor’s double stomp is used as the back pocket move that he has to use to even the odds and he pulls it out here. The fatigue commentary is really good here comparing to sport stars as well as giving Lee’s schedule. The mano strike exchange is one of the weaker points of the match here for me but Lee hits a great strike and then goes aggressively after the arm of Skyler. Slingshot spear is a Skyler staple but was played off really well in this match with its placement and point of emphasis. Battle up top and the double stomp on the arm which looks vicious. The big running kick and German is a nice nearfall attempt for Lee. I see Parv’s original critique about the sell job of Skyler with the arm in this segment and agree with that to an extent. He should have done more wincing of the arm after the pin attempt. He does wring it out once following his shoulder charges but he probably shouldn’t have went to that move then. I think up to the double stomp, Lee had mainly just peppered the arm attack and that the limb wasn’t neutralized. That changed with the double stomp. Anyway, the forward roll from the top was a great nearfall right on the chest and stomach area and it really portrayed that Skyler had kind of been building to this one critical move and it still wasn’t enough to put Lee away. In an unfortunate camera angle, Dustin Spencer is seen yawning on camera at this moment. Skyler’s facials here are fine as he shows a desperation and annoyance as what has happened. He responds by pitching a fit and just going with stomps and kicks. Lee is finally able to hit the penalty kick that he went for in minute one and I actually really think they didn’t want this to be executed perfectly. Skyler then goes after the knee which shows him going to another strategy but it is too late and Lee is able to hit the STF again with extra emphasis on the injured arm to pick up the win. I ranked this **** before and think I may have been too low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 One thing I'm also interested in re: Lee vs. Skyler is the crowd. Now, this is a high school gym, about as far away as the Tokyo Dome imaginable, but ... they seemed kinda dead. It doesn't help that you can see random dudes in the crowd picking their nose or falling asleep, but generally CWF looks like they might try to mask the high-school gym envonriment a little bit more. I was actually impressed with the presentation and camera work, the general *feel* of the place was fine, but the venue did contribute to this general feeling that something wasn't really happening here. From the Evolve stuff I watched, they seemed to manage small venues a bit better with lighting and so on. You don't need huge crowds, just a way of filming it to make it feel intimate rather than a group of people randomly watching this match in a gym. Would fans of CWF admit this is something they could do better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Chad, gotta admit, I did an IRL lol at you bringing up 3.5 for Dory vs. Bock at Slamboree. That's more of a unique masestro vs maestro affair, and I'm not sure it would do guys who are 23 years old much good to be compared to two of the all-time greats putting on a greatest hits package in a legends showcase. It's possible it was Skyler pulling that match down more than Lee, but the whole thing felt sloppy as hell. I also couldn't help compare Lee to Jim Breaks when he was doing the limb stuff, and that comparison is only ever going to go one way. I do not want to dick on the guy though, he's young. And possible he has greater performances and matches if he has this rep. I think the comparison to Breaks is prickly and kind of bleeds over into your analysis on DIY vs. REvival where you mentioned Gargano was no Steamboat. Perhaps not but I do think it is dangerous to start categorizing things with the absolute top of each institute. If Breaks is a A+ mat worker, Lee is probably A- but he also has the striking ability. Same with Garagano as a FIP. Steamboat is the GOAT and A+ but I for sure thought Gargano was only a smidge below him in the Toronto match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 One thing I'm also interested in re: Lee vs. Skyler is the crowd. Now, this is a high school gym, about as far away as the Tokyo Dome imaginable, but ... they seemed kinda dead. It doesn't help that you can see random dudes in the crowd picking their nose or falling asleep, but generally CWF looks like they might try to mask the high-school gym envonriment a little bit more. I was actually impressed with the presentation and camera work, the general *feel* of the place was fine, but the venue did contribute to this general feeling that something wasn't really happening here. From the Evolve stuff I watched, they seemed to manage small venues a bit better with lighting and so on. You don't need huge crowds, just a way of filming it to make it feel intimate rather than a group of people randomly watching this match in a gym. Would fans of CWF admit this is something they could do better? If you are saying EVOLVE has better production than I just don't know what to say. EVOLVE has shitty sound were you can barely hear the ring at points because the commentary is blaring. In addition, I can't see much facials of the crowd because it is usually so dark or in such a dingy arena that it is impossible. I thought this crowd was certainly fine. I pointed out the example of Dustin yawning in my review but he is someone that traveled distance to get to that show so that shows his commitment to the promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Yeah, but I guess I wouldn't have thought of Breaks AT ALL if Lee hadn't explicitly been doing Breaks spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 One thing I'm also interested in re: Lee vs. Skyler is the crowd. Now, this is a high school gym, about as far away as the Tokyo Dome imaginable, but ... they seemed kinda dead. It doesn't help that you can see random dudes in the crowd picking their nose or falling asleep, but generally CWF looks like they might try to mask the high-school gym envonriment a little bit more. I was actually impressed with the presentation and camera work, the general *feel* of the place was fine, but the venue did contribute to this general feeling that something wasn't really happening here. From the Evolve stuff I watched, they seemed to manage small venues a bit better with lighting and so on. You don't need huge crowds, just a way of filming it to make it feel intimate rather than a group of people randomly watching this match in a gym. Would fans of CWF admit this is something they could do better? If you are saying EVOLVE has better production than I just don't know what to say. EVOLVE has shitty sound were you can barely hear the ring at points because the commentary is blaring. In addition, I can't see much facials of the crowd because it is usually so dark or in such a dingy arena that it is impossible. I thought this crowd was certainly fine. I pointed out the example of Dustin yawning in my review but he is someone that traveled distance to get to that show so that shows his commitment to the promotion. CWF seem like they have better quality cameras and mics, but do less to mask the venue. I guess I kinda like the murky crowd. Manhattan Centre RAW style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 There usual show is in the CWF Sporatorium which has a better arena feel to me than any other venue currently that is not Korakuen, Reseda, or Arena Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I actually decided to rewatch the match too against my better judgment. I haven't read Chad's write up or talked to Matt or read back Parv's comments. That said....I find the complaint about execution utterly bizarre. I've seen Skyler live a ton over the years and probably my biggest criticism of him is that sometimes his uppercuts look light so I had assumed there was something of that sort in this match that would really jump out. From my perspective no such thing existed at all. There were one or two spots that I would call minor execution hiccups, but nothing that I thought looked bad at all, and nothing even approaching a blown spot. I could see criticizing the match if you hate slow building title matches, though I love them, and the whole deal is that it fits with the bigger story of Trevor Lee's reign. I could also see hitting the match on some other stuff (the section of the floor - while well worked - was not really needed and kind of feels shoehorned in), but by and large I thought it was a great match. Not "brilliant," but I thought the build was there, there was a consistent theme running throughout the match, there were several very strong teases and cut off spots that were built to and/or paid off down the stretch, it lacked the excess that riddle's so many major matches, and the finish was strong. Everyone here knows my aversion to star ratings but I'd probably double Parv's rating if I was forced at gunpoint to throw snowflakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 One of the reasons why I think this is a terrible first exposure to CWF is that it's not in the Sporatorium. That venue has a crowd that tends to be fully invested in everything, looks better, knows the stories, et. This was likely a benefit show, that had some CWF regulars, and some people who were just there to see "wrestling." The gravity of a CWF title match means little to them. I will say that I don't think the crowd was dead, but I also don't think it compares to the best of what you get in their usual building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Calling Lee and Skyler unpolished or "green" is actually pretty baffling, especially on Lee where I know a number of people here who keep up with modern wrestling think Lee was at least a top 10 guy in the world in 2016. I'm not as high on the match as Chad is (had it at ***3/4 IIRC) but still think it's pretty great work in front of what's not their "home" crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I just call it as I see it and to me they seem unpolished. I encourage others to watch the match and give their takes. I like this match-based discussion, even if we aren't agreeing. I will check out that Lee vs. Everett match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Calling Lee and Skyler unpolished or "green" is actually pretty baffling, especially on Lee where I know a number of people here who keep up with modern wrestling think Lee was at least a top 10 guy in the world in 2016. I'm not as high on the match as Chad is (had it at ***3/4 IIRC) but still think it's pretty great work in front of what's not their "home" crowd. I honestly find it to be a really strange criticism having just watched the match back. Lee IS very young, and Skyler can do things that I could see not appealing to those who value execution more than me, but Lee rarely ever works his age anymore, and none of the Skyler issues I would have expected to be the issue were present. I recognize that Parv and I see eye to eye on very little anymore, but this is one of those criticisms that I not only don't agree with, I don't understand it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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