Best worker of the 80s

[Dylan Waco]

Is this 80-89 or 81-90. Because that effects my answer

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought the former. But I'm sure everyone would love to know both answers

[Grimmas]

Is there anywhere we can go with that other than ranking wrestlers on what-ifs? Just asking how you think we should factor in that he had more opportunities relative to other great workers. I don't mean that with any type of agenda, but I've seen it brought up by a few people a few times, and I'm trying to understand how "Well, he had more opportunities" matters. Does it matter in the sense that we should cut guys slack who didn't have those same opportunities? Does it matter in the sense that it's less impressive that he pulled it off since he was always put in positions to pull it off? Again, just want to understand, so next time that someone brings that point up, I know how to take it.

Flair is going to rank high and he does have the best match out of the most different amount of guys. It's just it shouldn't be surprising, because he is good and had way more opportunities. Is Flair better than Misawa at this? Of course, Misawa only wrestled a a few handful of guys in significant matches.

[Microstatistics]

No votes for Jumbo so far is a surprise.

[Dylan Waco]

If it's 80-89 I would lean heavily toward Hansen or Fujinami. I'm not prepared to say who I would pick, but I think they have the most complete and interesting resumes and oddly stand out for totally different reasons - Hansen because he made his act work everywhere against everyone, and Fujinami because he was so excellent at adapting to different roles, settings, styles. Lawler is hurt from the missing year of 1980, and Flair is hurt because there is so little Flair footage from that year relative to Hansen and Fujinami.

 

If it's 81-90 I think Fujinami slides out of contention and Flair slides in as well as Lawler. Still not sure I'm entirely settled on who I would pick there - my heart says Lawler, my brain says Hansen, and my gut says Flair.

 

Will have more to say about this in the coming months.

[JerryvonKramer]

No votes for Jumbo so far is a surprise.

It is. But I suspect his 81-84, a period during which he had several classic matches but worked a stodgy style, is being held against him.

[Matt D]

Just curious (and this is the last I'll say on this, for a while a bit. I just honestly don't know), what % of Hansen's matches from the 80s that we have on tape are his tags with Hansen? What % of his total output for the decade were those matches? Am I wrong in saying that's the majority of what we have on tape from what we'd consider his home promotion in the 80s? AWA and PR (and some of those really strong singles matches from AJPW) feel like the exception instead of the norm to me.

[JerryvonKramer]

Hansen tags with Brody, DiBiase and Gordy throughout the decade.

 

In the same timeframe Jumbo tags with Baba, Tenryu and Yatsu

 

Every AJ worker has a relatively high proportion of their matches that were tags. This is also the case in the 70s and 90s.

[Matt D]

Tags in general, then, as I think the Dibiase matches are much worse in some ways because you go in with slightly higher expectations re: no Brody and then it's Hansen dragging them down instead of coming off as "Well, at least he's better than Brody."

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought Hansen had very good to great matches with all three partners, see here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5565451

 

B = ***3/4

 

Edit: Forgot about his run with Tenryu as a partner too. Some great ones with him as well.

[Matt D]

I'd like to see Dylan look at those, frankly. People pushed at #1 need that level of scrutiny. I'll gladly talk about any Bock match I haven't already if people point that out.

[andrew79]

If it's 81-90 then I'd switch from Flair to Jumbo because of the Jumbo versus Misawa feud.

[JerryvonKramer]

Was about to post this in Fujinami thread, but I guess it belongs here more:

 

By ace I only mean "top star", but I suppose that was really Inoki during the 80s? With Fujinami as "Workhorse #2/#1A guy"? If people have character aspects that comprise an ace that they think Jumbo better embodied as "the man", that's fine. I just mean that I was more impressed with his showing on his 80s set than I am by the 80s Tsuruta I've seen. The biggest Jumbo fans are also factoring his mid-70s and early 90s stuff into the assessment. Late 70s/early 90s Fujinami is underrated: Fujinami 78-79 is better than Jumbo at the same time, but Jumbo '90-'91 is better than what I've seen of Fujinami at that time.

 

TL;DR: Fujinami's currently my #3, Tsuruta's my #24.

The core of Jumbo's case must still be made in the 80s. I had 22 matches at 4 or higher for Jumbo for the AJ set (with five at five star), and I was pretty much a pack voter: not an outlier in any way shape or form. Which is to say my Top 100 and the pooled Top 100 are not that far apart, except for that Steamboat vs. Sheik match.

 

So far with NJ set I am still only 4 discs in to up to mid-83.

 

The Fujinami I have at 4 or above are:

 

****1/2

 

Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu (7/7/83)

Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Chavo Guerrero (5/9/80)

Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Isamu Teranishi (10/8/81)

 

****

Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Steve Keirn (2/3 Falls) (2/1/80)

Antonio Inoki & Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Andre the Giant & Rene Goulet (12/10/81)

 

I didn't rate some of the Choshu matches as highly as some others are on them. But then some people are less high on Jumbo vs. Flair / Jumbo vs. Kerry. That evens out. So far, they are on about an even keel for me in terms of match quality, and Jumbo has his best to come (presumably Fujinami does too?)

 

Jumbo had matches I really liked in that early 80s time frame vs. Dick Slater, vs. Harley Race, and over in AWA with Rick Martel and Bock with 9/29/85 vs. Martel at *****3/4 (for me)

 

I'm just interested by why the gap is so big?

 

Are you that much lower on those 20 or so matches I have at 4+

 

Also interested in views from the other people who also voted in the AJ 80s set. Don't really know why Jumbo's stock appears to have fallen. Seems like people were much higher on him when the AJ 80s set was happening and in its direct aftermath. What's happened in those 3 or 4 years that has changed?

[Parties]

You obv. have a very complete view of Jumbo - certainly more than what I've seen. But you need to watch past mid-'83 to have the full view of Fujinami. So much of his best work is in:

• the seven big 5-on-5 tags that happened between '84-'88,
• the UWF-NJ feud (to this day still the best feud in wrestling history for match quality),
• the '88 and '89 Vader matches,
• the '87 Kimura matches (though if you don't consider their 9/25/80 match to be four stars or higher, you may not agree),
• the '85 tag tournament teaming w/ Kimura.

I genuinely like every performance he had on that set, so I'm a mark on the guy, but even something that did comparatively poor in the final voting - like the singles against Hogan in '85 - feels revelatory and fresh in today's climate.

 

Fujinami has as much high-end variety as Lawler does. They both have the same "most disappointing match of the 80s": against each other in '89. Lawler could have his match with any big lug and did. I have such a soft spot for 80s New Japan bringing in the world's best to work their top stars that I even love the most questionable of the Sayama and/or Fujinami vs. Lucha and/or British Greats stuff. Jumbo-Mascaras '80 is much better than Sayama-Villano III, but I've been in a place for the last few years where I'd rather watch old NJ than AJ. The tide's turning a bit: the passing of Bockwinkel sort of thawed out my heart to that heavyweight style, and coming into the home stretch I do want to watch more of that Jumbo/Bock/Martel/Flair/Robinson "Tokyo by way of Minneapolis" approach.

 

Also, I genuinely don't know who to vote for in this poll and agree that it's a major question. Flair is less deniable than I initially thought when you really add up his resume. Fujinami has higher peaks. Lawler has more week-to-week gems wherein some unheralded TV match proves surprisingly excellent. But I can't pretend that Flair doesn't have an amazing run. I'm as guilty as anyone of taking him for granted, or judging other guys by their finest hour rather than judging Flair by his consistency. And if I'm saying that Flair had a better 80s run than Lawler or Hansen, are their post-80s performances really enough to rank them above Flair (as I have on my own list)? Hansen's entirely dependent on All Japan '90-93, while Lawler's case is more dependent on long-term endurance.

 

Overall this feels like a question I won't be able to answer for myself until I watch/rewatch the guys on my list to get their final rankings. I could see Jumbo going way up if we fall in love all over again. I've spent a lot of time (too much) in this nomination period figuring out who's gonna barely sneak onto my #85-100: it's time to start validating my #1-15.

 

Two final things:

• Who the hell refers to "the 80s" as 81-90? Am I misunderstanding this? Shouldn't the 80s be 1/1/80 to 12/31/89?
• Flair's ranking as a career performer for me is greatly enhanced by his amazing late 70s stuff and his very underrated run in '90-'95. His singles with Arn, Regal, Vader, and Eddy are some of his most fun and fresh material.

[PhilTLL]

Two final things:

• Who the hell refers to "the 80s" as 81-90? Am I misunderstanding this? Shouldn't the 80s be 1/1/80 to 12/31/89?

No year zero, and so forth. The original "tens" weren't 0 CE to 9 CE. But yeah, in common parlance a decade is xxx0-xxx9.

[PeteF3]

Yeah, no way do decades work like centuries. When someone says the "1980s," they mean "years that go 198X."