JerryvonKramer Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I have no dog in this fight. Just interested to know where people are. It's possible that whoever wins the 80s ends up as #1, possible but not a definite. I envision more fun polls as we inch towards end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I understand the arguments for Fujinami and Jumbo, and interestingly find Jumbo with higher highs and much lower lows. But at the end of the day there isn't enough of a body of work to trump Flair's output across the globe and territories. Hell, he's responsible for one of Jumbo's best matches of the 80s and MOTD contenders with folks who wouldn't otherwise rate near the top of anyone's list. Just too much to overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 How do I chose between Flair and Lawler in this one? Also why not Satanico? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Bock seemed like a bigger oversight with not having an entry over Satanico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 It's Fujinami for me. Then Lawler and Flair. Hansen and then Jumbo. Actually you could probably switch Hansen and Flair. I don't know. Fujinami was great from the outset to the very end when he went down with a back injury. What I want out of wrestling I get from Fujinami in this time frame. I love the struggle for control in his matches. His biggest drawback is that he wasn't a great brawler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Bock seemed like a bigger oversight with not having an entry over Satanico. Oh yeah, Bockwinkel! He'd be my number 1 or 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I didn't put on anyone who didn't have a complete 80s from 80-89. Hence no Bock, no Funk, etc. Other is there for that reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I had a spell of having Jumbo over Flair, but after watching that amazing match with Terry Taylor, I've flipped back to Flair now. I can't think of a single guy on earth who could get a performance as good as that out of Taylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 If it's 1981-1990 (as it should be) I'd chose Fujiwara as he was the best worker in what I think is the best wresting style ever which is enough to compensate him not having much stuff on tape early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I had a spell of having Jumbo over Flair, but after watching that amazing match with Terry Taylor, I've flipped back to Flair now. I can't think of a single guy on earth who could get a performance as good as that out of Taylor. YES! Exactly this. Who else could ever pull 3 (in my eyes) classics out of Terry Taylor? Still scratching my head how you found each of their 3 matches so different, quality-wise, but the point about Flair remains. The mileage they get out of that headlock in the third is just incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 If I can't vote for Bock then Satanico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I had a spell of having Jumbo over Flair, but after watching that amazing match with Terry Taylor, I've flipped back to Flair now. I can't think of a single guy on earth who could get a performance as good as that out of Taylor. YES! Exactly this. Who else could ever pull 3 (in my eyes) classics out of Terry Taylor? Still scratching my head how you found each of their 3 matches so different, quality-wise, but the point about Flair remains. The mileage they get out of that headlock in the third is just incredible. Still coming down from it, rare that I see a Flair classic I've not seen before. Last time I felt like this was seeing the 92 Tenryu match. I don't know why the other two didn't hit the spot like that one. But I do agree that I find it difficult to imagine Jumbo, Fujinami, Hansen, Lawler or even Bock pulling a match that good out of Taylor. I think Terry Funk probably could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Posted 11 January 2016 - 02:35 PM The more I watch of him, the more I am convinced that he was the best wrestler of the 1980s ahead of Jumbo, Flair, Fujiwara and the other usual suspects. What I had said in the Fujinami thread a few weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I had a spell of having Jumbo over Flair, but after watching that amazing match with Terry Taylor, I've flipped back to Flair now. I can't think of a single guy on earth who could get a performance as good as that out of Taylor. YES! Exactly this. Who else could ever pull 3 (in my eyes) classics out of Terry Taylor? Still scratching my head how you found each of their 3 matches so different, quality-wise, but the point about Flair remains. The mileage they get out of that headlock in the third is just incredible. Still coming down from it, rare that I see a Flair classic I've not seen before. Last time I felt like this was seeing the 92 Tenryu match. I don't know why the other two didn't hit the spot like that one. But I do agree that I find it difficult to imagine Jumbo, Fujinami, Hansen, Lawler or even Bock pulling a match that good out of Taylor. I think Terry Funk probably could. You won't want to do it now, but I'd say its worth rewatching the first 2 with fresh eyes when you have the opportunity. The first is still my favorite, very possibly due to the fact that I didn't expect anything approaching that level going into it, but just didn't find the others to be very far behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Ric Flair made the Ric Flair Special work in more places with a wider variety opponents than anyone else made their signature match work against multiple opponents. I can see a case for ranking others higher if you care more about the intricacies of their work than their output, and I can also see ranking others higher if you're looking more at working a lot of matches that felt different from each other. But if you care about match quality, Flair gave too many guys in too many places their best match for it to be anyone but him in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Ric Flair made the Ric Flair Special work in more places with a wider variety opponents than anyone else made their signature match work against multiple opponents. I can see a case for ranking others higher if you care more about the intricacies of their work than their output, and I can also see ranking others higher if you're looking more at working a lot of matches that felt different from each other. But if you care about match quality, Flair gave too many guys in too many places their best match for it to be anyone but him in my mind. An interesting question to ask would be: How many different guys had their best match with Flair? How many different guys had their best match with Fujinami? How many with Jumbo? And so on down the line. I think that's a metric that might help Lawler, but the quality bar on both those matches and those opponents probably lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 If you define variety as being able to make your match work against a wide variety of opponents, to me, Flair is clear number one. It's similar to how we've talked about Vader just taking the Vader show on the road instead of changing his style everywhere. If you define variety as being able to chain wrestle, fly, work suplex-heavy highspot matches, brawls, etc., then Flair probably isn't the clear number one. Someone is probably better than him at each of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimArg Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 First Satanico, then Fujiwara and finally Lawler is my top three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Ric Flair made the Ric Flair Special work in more places with a wider variety opponents than anyone else made their signature match work against multiple opponents. I can see a case for ranking others higher if you care more about the intricacies of their work than their output, and I can also see ranking others higher if you're looking more at working a lot of matches that felt different from each other. But if you care about match quality, Flair gave too many guys in too many places their best match for it to be anyone but him in my mind. An interesting question to ask would be: How many different guys had their best match with Flair? How many different guys had their best match with Fujinami? How many with Jumbo? And so on down the line. I think that's a metric that might help Lawler, but the quality bar on both those matches and those opponents probably lower. How many people wrestled as many different opponents as Flair did in big (could have good matches like title match) settings. Absolutely no one, so of course no one did it better than Flair. Nobody even had the chance (taped at least). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Is there anywhere we can go with that other than ranking wrestlers on what-ifs? Just asking how you think we should factor in that he had more opportunities relative to other great workers. I don't mean that with any type of agenda, but I've seen it brought up by a few people a few times, and I'm trying to understand how "Well, he had more opportunities" matters. Does it matter in the sense that we should cut guys slack who didn't have those same opportunities? Does it matter in the sense that it's less impressive that he pulled it off since he was always put in positions to pull it off? Again, just want to understand, so next time that someone brings that point up, I know how to take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I don't understand that as an argument. It's like saying Alam Shearer scored 260 Premier Leauge goals and then saying "yeah but how many other strikers were playing at the top flight for so long and had so many goal scoring opportunities?" That's basically a nonsense argument. Besides, all of the guys listed had a lot of chances with many different guys to have good matches. Jumbo faced every NWA champion. I've seen Fujinami against a lot of different opponents and I'm only in 1984. Stan Hansen worked Backlund, Martel, Slaughter, Colon, and anyone who was anyone in AJPW. Lawler faced any heel who came through Memphis. It's weak Grimmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Ric Flair made the Ric Flair Special work in more places with a wider variety opponents than anyone else made their signature match work against multiple opponents. I can see a case for ranking others higher if you care more about the intricacies of their work than their output, and I can also see ranking others higher if you're looking more at working a lot of matches that felt different from each other. But if you care about match quality, Flair gave too many guys in too many places their best match for it to be anyone but him in my mind. An interesting question to ask would be: How many different guys had their best match with Flair? How many different guys had their best match with Fujinami? How many with Jumbo? And so on down the line. I think that's a metric that might help Lawler, but the quality bar on both those matches and those opponents probably lower. How many people wrestled as many different opponents as Flair did in big (could have good matches like title match) settings. Absolutely no one, so of course no one did it better than Flair. Nobody even had the chance (taped at least). With that logic you can also say Flair is being discounted for not working low on the card, in big tags, in brawls. All they asked him to do was main event in world title matches around the country. Which is why others did those other things "better" than Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 No soccer talk in the wrestling threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Flair earned his opportunities and then he made the most of them. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 No soccer talk in the wrestling threads. I will be punishing Parv with baseball references in any future conversations regarding Jumbo or Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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