On the subject of wrestlers physical appearance

[Loss]

I've read some alarming threads since the death of Eddy Guerrero at various message boards, threads that show that so many people learned absolutely nothing from this tragedy, and threads that show that so many people are hypocritical.

 

People were so sad when Eddy Guerrero died. Then news comes out that Trevor Murdoch is about to be given a singles push. Then I notice people complaining about Trevor's push because he looks "ugly" and "out of shape". Seriously, FUCK YOU if you think that. If you think that, congratulations, because you were an accomplice in the death of Eddy Guerrero, of Brian Pillman, of Louie Spicolli, of all of the wrestlers who have died too young, who have taken steroids. It's as much your fault for expecting that type of body on a big star as it is Vince's fault for responding to those expectations by pushing that body type.

 

Second, I read threads at DVDVR that ROH guys look skinny and weak, and as a result they can't be compared to WWE guys. Congratulations to you guys, you are skipping a beat like nothing ever happened and seem to be out to make yet another young wrestler drop dead just because you don't think he looks good shirtless.

 

In summary ...

 

If you think Misterio is too small to be a world champ, if you think ROH needs bigger guys, if you think Trevor Murdoch is too ugly and out of shape-looking for a nice push, you are playing a major part in wrestlers under 40 leaving before their time. Because they're taking steroids to appeal to you.

 

I know this seems harsh, and a thread I read just pissed me off, especially someone claiming that ugly wrestlers are what put the NWA out of business in the 1980s, so I'm writing with a lot of fury at the moment. But seriously, people need to rethink the way they look at wrestlers and the importance they place on size, unless they're willing to keep losing more and more of their favorites before it's their time to go.

 

The next time someone complains about Paul London not getting a push and in the next breath says Rey doesn't look credible against The Undertaker, realize you just answered many of your own questions about why certain people are pushed in wrestling and certain people aren't.

[goodhelmet]

I imagine it was at DVDVR but can you direct me to this thread where ugly wrestlers put the NWA out of business?

[Guest savagerulz]

You know, Meltzer uses a lot of stats to make points like the whole NFL players vs wrestler deaths thing and all. But probably the one that best sums up your answer was a hypothetical one he posed, saying "it's sad and scary how high the percentage would be."

 

The hypothetical poll question? "If there was a pill that would make them the biggest superstar in the business for five years, but as soon as it wore off it killed them, how many professional wrestlers would take it?"

[Loss]

I imagine it was at DVDVR but can you direct me to this thread where ugly wrestlers put the NWA out of business?

TSM.

[Mad Dog]

As far as looks. I said in the RoH thread that I don't buy into a lot of their undercard because they're 100 lb. kids that I could beat up. I stand by that completely. They aren't credible in any sort of way. I'm not big on looks, all I ask is that I at least couldn't beatdown whoever's in the ring. I don't want them to use steroids but I'm not going to pay to see them in the ring.

 

As far as Trevor Murdoch goes. He's at least different. The WWF is so similiar that I can't tell anyone apart anymore. It's nice to see a wrestler with a more natural body actually getting a push. The people bashing him obviously haven't seen much pre-1985 stuff. I'd hate to see Harley Race try to make it these days.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

I imagine it was at DVDVR but can you direct me to this thread where ugly wrestlers put the NWA out of business?

TSM.

I know the thread you mean. I think some are simply too programmed to realise the irony of mourning the death of a wrestler due to a heart problem likely exacerbated by the use of HGH, which was used to literally grow the human body to proportions the naturally formed physique was never meant to deal with. I also find humour in so many apparently straight (if likely desperately single) guys criticising another guy's body when they probably have some overhang around the waist also. The only hetero guys that should be doing that are personal trainers and bodybuilders.

 

Anyone else really getting a Stan Hansen in WCW vibe from Murdoch what with his constant gurning?

[Guest savagerulz]

As far as Trevor Murdoch goes.  He's at least different.  The WWF is so similiar that I can't tell anyone apart anymore.  It's nice to see a wrestler with a more natural body actually getting a push.  The people bashing him obviously haven't seen much pre-1985 stuff.  I'd hate to see Harley Race try to make it these days.

And what about Mick Foley?

 

More natural body eh? I am not in half as bad of shape and my doctor is all over my ass about how I need to lose weight, eat right, and diet. By saying that more wrestlers should be built like Trevor Rhodes you are promoting heart disease, high blood pressure, and strokes. So if the wrestlers all start to look like T. Murdoch and they all start stroking out at 35 we can thank you.

[Loss]

I don't think I've seen enough Murdoch yet to know fully where I stand on him as a talent, but a guy like him even getting a push is a major step from WWE, and I'm willing to see what he can do with the ball if he does get it.

[sek69]

Unless someone developed a steroid that makes you taller, I don't think Rey Mysterio plays a role in this discussion.

[Mad Dog]

By saying that more wrestlers should be built like Trevor Rhodes you are promoting heart disease, high blood pressure, and strokes. So if the wrestlers all start to look like T. Murdoch and they all start stroking out at 35 we can thank you.

He's got a beer gut, big fucking deal. He's probably in better shape than most people who are at their ideal weight. I'd rather a guy walk around with some extra weight than pumping so much shit into their body that they'll be crippled or dead by 50. At least Trevor can throw a clothesline without his muscles tearing apart like Batista does.

[Mad Dog]

Unless someone developed a steroid that makes you taller, I don't think Rey Mysterio plays a role in this discussion.

Why? He's probably on more roids than the entire roster.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

As far as Trevor Murdoch goes.? He's at least different.? The WWF is so similiar that I can't tell anyone apart anymore.? It's nice to see a wrestler with a more natural body actually getting a push.? The people bashing him obviously haven't seen much pre-1985 stuff.? I'd hate to see Harley Race try to make it these days.

And what about Mick Foley?

 

More natural body eh? I am not in half as bad of shape and my doctor is all over my ass about how I need to lose weight, eat right, and diet. By saying that more wrestlers should be built like Trevor Rhodes you are promoting heart disease, high blood pressure, and strokes. So if the wrestlers all start to look like T. Murdoch and they all start stroking out at 35 we can thank you.

What are they dying of and suffering from now? What age are they dying around now while trying to make themselves appear in top shape? How exactly would your prediction be different than the fates other wrestlers have already met?

 

For the record, Dusty Rhodes, wobbly blonde blimp from the eighties, nearing 60 and as upbeat as ever. Rick Rude, former bodybuilder with the physique of a Greek sculpture, deceased as a result of complications relating to an enlarged heart.

 

I doubt people in Murdoch's shape need to worry too much. People that resemble Viscera or Vader... that's another issue.

 

Mick Foley would not be held up on high if not for his masochistic tendencies. Was her able to have good matches? Yes. Is he mostly remembered for going through tables, off cages, off ramps, taking chairshots rather than his list of technically sound evenly paced dramatic clashes? I'd say yes. Even he notes he came out to a whimper and left to chants in regards to the UT HitC so I think a lot of his popularity can be attributed to the fact he became known as the slightly offbeat guy who just wouldn't die.

[World's Worst Man]

The people who complain about wrestlers being too small should watch some MMA. Then I would ask if they think Kid Yamamoto is too small to be taken seriously, considering he could murder them in a real fight. Not to mention the fights where a small guy is competitive with an equally skilled bigger guy, despite eventually losing. So knowing that, what's so difficult about watching 2 150-180 pound guys wrestling each other? Or a 170 pound guy putting up a good fight against a 250 pound guy? The real world proves that it happens, so why is it so a leap in logic to believe it can happen that way in pro-wrestling? One might know that the 150 pound ROH undercard wrestler has no real fighting skills, and would probably get beaten up against a 200+ pound guy. But one also knows that wrestling is pre-determined, yet they suspend their disbelief anyway. Believing the wrestlers can really wrestle is just part of that suspension of disbelief.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

The people who complain about wrestlers being too small should watch some MMA. Then I would ask if they think Kid Yamamoto is too small to be taken seriously, considering he could murder them in a real fight. Not to mention the fights were a small guy is competitive with an equally skilled bigger guy, despite eventually losing. So knowing that, what's so difficult about watching 2 150-180 pound guys wrestling each other? Or a 170 pound guy putting up a good fight against a 250 pound guy? The real world proves that it happens, so why is it so a leap in logic to believe it can happen that way in pro-wrestling? One might know that the 150 pound ROH undercard wrestler has no real fighting skills, and would probably get beaten up against a 200+ pound guy. But one also knows that wrestling is pre-determined, yet they suspend their disbelief anyway. Believing the wrestlers can really wrestler is just part of that suspension of disbelief.

We had this discussion elsewhere in regards to Rey Mysterio with me listing MMA and grappling David vs Goliath matches, however your average sports fan is not your average WWE fan as they have different expectations due to wrestling's "unwritten stupid rules" such as "the big guy must win in the end or it won't be convincing", "if thrown at some ropes, turn around just as you get to them and run back" and other such things. It's funny in that wrestling involves "suspension of disbelief" however when you compare a real big guy vs little guy competition where the small dude wins to a wrestling match with the same result, somehow it becomes "unbelievable".

 

In conclusion, trying to reason with devout "smarks" using similar situations is a losing battle.

[Mad Dog]

You're being really generous saying the Special K guys were 150 lbs. And it's different with wrestling to a degree. When you have a 100 lb. guy doing all these springboards and all that it's not credible. I'm not super strong but I could even easily catch one of those guys doing that shit. It might not be as much of an issue if the RoH undercard guys had the talent to pull off credible matches. All I ask from my wrestlers is that I not be able to beat them up. They look like they just pulled some high school kid off the street and put them in the ring. They further make themselves worse by wearing wife beaters and jean shorts.

 

I watch plenty of MMA and while it's similiar in ways it's not totally the same. Out striking an opponent is different from diving on a guy that should obviously be able to catch you. Also Genki Sudo and Caol Ono look a million times more credible and threatening and that's about how small you get as far as MMA fighters go.

[Loss]

I do agree that wrestlers should look like wrestlers and should be encouraged to stay in good health. I just don't think there's anything wrong with pushing someone like a Buddy Rose or Adrian Adonis or Dick Murdoch or Stan Hansen who can really go. When they bring other positives to their position, it really shouldn't matter. That doesn't mean they should go out of their way to hire a bunch of 18-year old high school kids and fat slobs, it just means that someone like Trevor Murdoch, who looks like he'd kick more ass in a bar fight than anyone on the WWE roster, really, shouldn't be expected to be chiseled.

 

As for Rey, Rey is only three inches shorter than Eddy, who looked credible against everyone, so I don't see how his height isn't an issue.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

I watch plenty of MMA and while it's similiar in ways it's not totally the same.  Out striking an opponent is different from diving on a guy that should obviously be able to catch you.  Also Genki Sudo and Caol Ono look a million times more credible and threatening and that's about how small you get as far as MMA fighters go.

Shooto Bantamweight, Featherweight and Lightweight divisions have lower weight limits than the former UFC 155lbs division.

 

I actually think it could be an interesting angle to have a small guy that is a total badass, like the old frail white haired guys in kung fu movies that then kill entire armies of ninjas. I can't see how that would be worse than the Boogeyman.

[Al]

As for Rey, Rey is only three inches shorter than Eddy, who looked credible against everyone, so I don't see how his height isn't an issue.

One of the problems is that Eddy looked credible because steroid usage bloated his physique. The same with Mysterio. Rey came in at 140 lbs. when he started out. Lord knows what he's taken in order to get his body to the point where it is now. If you want to eliminate steroids, Rey's going to be one of the most notably changed guys, I believe. Can he drop that mass and remain a credible threat?

[Loss]

Who determines if he's credible? Fans? Promoters? If the answer is "fans", then that includes us and we shouldn't base whether or not he's pushed on his physique. If it's the promoter, that's a different argument.

[sek69]

Rey could be jacked like Lex Luger, and it wouldn't matter (to me at least) because he looks like a midget against the hosses. You can pair him with someone reasonably close to his height like Eddie or Benoit, or even HHH, and it would look credible. I don't see him being matched up with giants like Taker, Kane, and Show on a regular basis and making it look credible. Yes you can have a match or two and do the David vs Goliath thing, but over the course of a few months as part of a regular program it kind of exposes the business if this 5'2 guy is getting wins over seven footers.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Ok, hypothetical question:

 

Rey Mysterio vs Stevie Richards in a pro wrestling match, who do most think will win and why?

[Mad Dog]

Who determines if he's credible? Fans? Promoters? If the answer is "fans", then that includes us and we shouldn't base whether or not he's pushed on his physique. If it's the promoter, that's a different argument.

There needs to be common sense though. If you weigh 100 lbs. you shouldn't be showing off your girl arms and chicken legs. Wear baggy clothes and sleeves. You can fool people into thinking that you're bigger with the right clothes.

[World's Worst Man]

You're being really generous saying the Special K guys were 150 lbs.  And it's different with wrestling to a degree.  When you have a 100 lb. guy doing all these springboards and all that it's not credible.  I'm not super strong but I could even easily catch one of those guys doing that shit.  It might not be as much of an issue if the RoH undercard guys had the talent to pull off credible matches.  All I ask from my wrestlers is that I not be able to beat them up.  They look like they just pulled some high school kid off the street and put them in the ring.  They further make themselves worse by wearing wife beaters and jean shorts.

 

I watch plenty of MMA and while it's similiar in ways it's not totally the same.  Out striking an opponent is different from diving on a guy that should obviously be able to catch you.  Also Genki Sudo and Caol Ono look a million times more credible and threatening and that's about how small you get as far as MMA fighters go.

I can't defend the Special K guys, or most of the ROH undercard types you're talking about, just because very few of them are actually decent. But I'd argue that the real issue is ability and ring attire, as opposed to size. Just to use your high-spot argument as an example, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that a small wrestler could hit a large wrestler with a dive, as long as it was properly setup. Meaning if it was preceded by weardown holds and other moves that would stun the opponent. Then it works with the "worn down wrestlers are open to big moves" logic. But a lot of these guys don't do that, either because they don't know how or they're not able to for whatever reason.

 

Then there's also the matter of carrying one's self as a wrestler, which means having wrestling ability along with looking credible (proper ring attire or whatever). KENTA's announced weight is 176 pounds, and I'd say that's generous. But he's a hell of a worker, and he looks convincing in the ring, so his size isn't a big deal. So yea, I don't think the size matters, at least not to me. Gene Snitsky to me is no more credible than some ROH undercard guy, because he's absolute garbage in the ring.

[sek69]

Ok, hypothetical question:

 

Rey Mysterio vs Stevie Richards in a pro wrestling match, who do most think will win and why?

That's somewhat of a loaded question since Stevie's never been booked as anything but a jobber or comedy wrestler. Anyone booked to face a career jobber would be expected to win.

[goodhelmet]

That's the whole fucking point. The booking determines a guy's credibility with the fans, not the size of the fighter. Fuck, people, go watch some old RNR Express matches and see how small Ricky Morton was against some of his opposition and tell me that every fan in the audience didn't believe that Ricky Morton could win.