On the subject of wrestlers physical appearance

[Loss]

Morton faced off against Nikita Koloff, Krusher Kruschev and fucking DOCTOR DEATH!

[World's Worst Man]

If guys are booked as high end wrestlers, meaning they're given wins and made to look good, people will think they're "skilled". So in Rey's case, people think he has ability and skill, so if he challenges a bigger guy who's booked like a jobber (unskilled), Rey winning would be expected. But if he faces a bigger guy who's also been strongly booked (skilled), then Rey would be expected to lose, while putting up a good fight. Just like boxing or MMA really. Royce Gracie beats a bunch of stiffs that outweigh him by 60 pounds. If he fought a Nogueira-caliber guy, that outweighs him by 60 pounds, he might not get blown out, but he still clearly loses. Size can make up for small differences in skill, but if one guy is much better than the next, it won't matter what the size difference is.

[anarchistxx]

I'm not encouraging Rey to take steroids.

 

I like the way he looks, just don't think he would make a believable WWE Champion.

 

I will reiterate, I like the way he looks, just in case he's reading this and orders some steroids.

 

The US Division is fine for him, and for a man his size, has done incredibly well for himself.

[Mad Dog]

Misterio's already on steroids.

[sek69]

That's the whole fucking point. The booking determines a guy's credibility with the fans, not the size of the fighter. Fuck, people, go watch some old RNR Express matches and see how small Ricky Morton was against some of his opposition and tell me that every fan in the audience didn't believe that Ricky Morton could win.

Most of Ricky Morton's matches where against guys like the Midnights and the Horsemen, who were in his range size wise.

 

Nikita and Krusher weren't really all that big either, hell Krusher is Barry Darsow, and no one ever considered Smash a hoss.

[Loss]

I'm not encouraging Rey to take steroids.

 

I like the way he looks, just don't think he would make a believable WWE Champion.

 

I will reiterate, I like the way he looks, just in case he's reading this and orders some steroids.

 

The US Division is fine for him, and for a man his size, has done incredibly well for himself.

What if Rey becomes the most over guy in the promotion? Should he be held down just because of the dilemma about what to do about this small guy getting over? That logic is why it took so long for Benoit, Jericho and Guerrero (and years earlier, Hart and Michaels) to get anything even resembling a chance on top.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Would you guys push someone that's 3ft tall over a guy who is twice his size?

 

How about David Aquette, was he a good, believable size for a wrestler?

[Loss]

Would you guys push someone that's 3ft tall over a guy who is twice his size?

 

I don't know about three feet, but I'd definitely put Rey Misterio over Big Show.

[Mad Dog]

It works in the opposite direction. Spike Dudley credibly went against heavyweights do to booking and ring style and then was laughable against cruiserweights.

[sek69]

I don't get why people are acting like there's just a smidge of difference between Rey and other main event level wrestlers.

 

It's like someone pointing out that Rey isn't tall enough to ride the good rides at the amusement park is somehow sacreligious. Fucking Domenic was almost as tall as him during that angle with Eddie.

 

Another thing, pointing out that Rey is small doesn't mean that only hosses and roid monsters can be credible champions and/or over with the crowd. Like I said before about this discussion, when you can convince Taker that it's good for business to let someone almost two feet shorter than him win on a consistent basis, then you'll have your Rey Mysterio world title reign.

[World's Worst Man]

I think Rey could get a believable title run based on a fluke win over a bigger guy. He's over enough that people wouldn't shit on him, and a flukey rollup/surprise type win isn't something that's going to make people question the logic of a guy the size of Rey beating a guy the size of Kane or UT. He can never beat the "skilled" giants consistently though, it just wouldn't make any sense. But a short title reign, maybe with a couple defenses against smaller guys and another flukey win over a big guy wouldn't be the end of the world.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

I'm a bit late in my response, but still...

 

Mysterio is expected to beat Stevie Richards, someone bigger and stronger than he is, because Stevie is booked to look weaker and easy for Mysterio to beat. He's even beat bigger and stronger guys in the WWE such as Matt Hardy who was CW champion at the time although in the past had held many other HW WWE titles.

 

Shawn Michaels was expected to beat Chris Masters earlier this year because he is known for beating bigger stronger guys as he was booked to beat guys like Vader, Undertaker, Diesel, Sid etc for years.

 

Has Chris Benoit cleanly beat Big Show, someone twice his weight and over a foot taller than him, on more than one occasion? I believe he has. HAve people accepted it? Yes, as Benoit has been portrayed as a resilient, tough as nails wrestler who is able to beat the odds.

 

In the end if the story in the match is good people will believe what they are shown and told is acceptable because the WWE makes its own rules about what is acceptable and what isn't, who beats who when and using what. If they promote it the right way, we will buy into it and accept it. Is Rey short? Yes. Does that mean he couldn't be entertaining on top with the right promotion and booking? I don't think so.

 

By the same token, is Trevor Murdoch out of shape compared to Chris Masters? Yes. Does that mean he can't be entertaining with the right promotion and booking? No.

 

If a bunch of in shape but not super ripped smaller guys came in and stomped the shit out of the rest of the roster, although at first some might not buy into it if it was done on a consistent basis people would eventually accept them as tougher and better than the musclebound guys. If the announcers sold disbelief at first but called all of the action before expressing surprise that a smaller guy was able to beat the bigger one, the audience identify with the announcers and in turn find it acceptable in the same way announcers are able to put over finishers as the end of a match even though other earlier moves may have looked far worse.

 

If they are going to have lightning strike indoors, blood running down walls, people coming back from the dead and other such things and people accept it as part of the show, how the fuck can a smaller or out of shape guy winning the belt be that farfetched?

[Guest savagerulz]

The people who complain about wrestlers being too small should watch some MMA. Then I would ask if they think Kid Yamamoto is too small to be taken seriously, considering he could murder them in a real fight. Not to mention the fights where a small guy is competitive with an equally skilled bigger guy, despite eventually losing. So knowing that, what's so difficult about watching 2 150-180 pound guys wrestling each other? Or a 170 pound guy putting up a good fight against a 250 pound guy? The real world proves that it happens, so why is it so a leap in logic to believe it can happen that way in pro-wrestling? One might know that the 150 pound ROH undercard wrestler has no real fighting skills, and would probably get beaten up against a 200+ pound guy. But one also knows that wrestling is pre-determined, yet they suspend their disbelief anyway. Believing the wrestlers can really wrestle is just part of that suspension of disbelief.

Where you really go off the cliff is when you bring MMA into the equation. MMA has weight classes for a reason. So does boxing. Hell so does Olympic freestyle wrestling. Could some of the lower weights compete with the heavies in both? Probably. Would the general issues of reach (which seems to apply to bigger guys, but correct me if I'm wrong) and weight create a lot of mismatches? Yes. Would a lot of smaller guys get their asses kicked? Probably. You bring up Yamamoto, which is fine, but the realms of MMA and wrestling are not only separated by different rules, but entirely different fan bases, so his latent asskicking abilities might not mean a damn thing in the WWE. I'm sure Dan Severn could have stretched 98% of the guys he faced when he was in the WWE...that didn't mean he should have been World Champion.

 

UFC's World Welterweight Champion is Matt Hughes, a guy who is very much talented and good at being on the ground. Its Heavyweight Champ is Andrei Arlovski, who also likes to grapple. Ask any MMA expert around who they would pick and they'd laugh at you for asking such an obvious question. Both men are champions, but the reasons are obvious. Arlovski's weight gives him a tremendous advantage. Even if their skills are equal (which I don't think they are), the fact that Arlovski weighs like 70 lbs more than Hughes tilts the scales in that he can wear him down easier and can pack more strength on in training. Plus weight allows you to absorb more punishment.

 

All sports are like that, it's why point guards don't check centers, why offensive lineman and defensive lineman rival in size, why defensemen are bigger than forwards and so on. Sure you have some guys that break the mold (Fat Lever was 6-3 and could out rebound most centers in the 80's, Barkley was 6-4 and averaged like 11 for his career), but the talent had to be beyond exceptional. The casual fan knows this and pays attention to it...and you honestly think they'd believe it if Rey Mysterio beat Batista...despite it being scripted? What if Andre the Giant lost to Marty Jannetty, would people buy that? What if Jeff Hardy beat the Undertaker? No, hell no, and...lol@him jobbing. You can do it if the time is right with certain guys (who have a history of being one of the absolute best) and its booked right (Eddie over Brock, Benoit vs. Brock, Cena over Big Show at WM 20, etc.) and the fans will take to it. Mysterio? Some of these ROH guys? To the average WWE crowd who doesn't know who the fuck these guys are, they'd curse your soul at the thought of some scrawny unknown fuck coming in and pinning someone like Big Show. Are they better wrestlers? Sure. John Cena can't wrestle for shit yet can draw more money than guys obviously better than him (like say...Benjamin). And that?s the difference between the two...with MMA you throw them in a cage and let skill sort itself out...and hopefully the skill is so exception you can make some dollars, but you want to maintain the integrity of the sport. The goal of wrestling is to make money, and that isn't synonymous with in-ring skill either. You need charisma, showmanship and some promo ability to really get up there too. Do a lot of these guys in ROH and shit have that? Not from what I?ve seen.

[Guest SweetMama Scaat]

Alot of people on the internet sure are stupid.

 

 

Trevor Murdoch- When did Murdoch get a big singles push? Hes won like two solo matches, one against a guy on a losing streak and one against a jobber. Murdochs not hard to get. Hes out of shape and ugly, yet hes a kick ass redneck. Thats basically his gimmick. This is not complicated. What if he lost weight and got extensive plastic surgery? That would defeat the entire purpose of the character. Murdochs different, and ANYbody with common sense would find that endearing. If youre watching wrestling to see pretty guys who are all oily and muslcey then you need to invest in better porno.

 

 

By saying that more wrestlers should be built like Trevor Rhodes you are promoting heart disease, high blood pressure, and strokes.

Savagerulz, did you recently become Trevor Murdochs cardiologist and didnt tell us? Considering hes a prefessional athlete theres a good chance that he works out and keeps himself in shape, even though it doesnt seem that way on the surface. You cant always tell a persons health problems jus by looking at them.

 

 

 

Rey Mysterio- Al mentioned that Rey weighed 140 lbs when he debuted. I coulda swore when they did the Tale of the Tape on the SD! special they said Rey weighed 150. Im not sure what Als point was but gaining 10 lbs in like 15 years isnt that crazy. For an adult male of his height its really not that ridiculous. If someones gonna assume that Reys on steroids hey should use evidence that makes sense.

 

Physique and Appearance-

 

There needs to be common sense though. If you weigh 100 lbs. you shouldn't be showing off your girl arms and chicken legs. Wear baggy clothes and sleeves. You can fool people into thinking that you're bigger with the right clothes.

This is another thing that should be common sense. Remember Road Doggs midcard push. He wore his own shirt (merchandising!) and what appeared to be Chef Pants. Road dogg what charasmatic, clever, and cagey. He could hang in hardcore matches with bigger, more dangerous opponents. It was believable and entertaining. Alot of people thought that both the New Age Outlaws were future main eventers. The WWE wanted to Push Billy Gunn and Road Dogg was getting tremendous crowd support, all off of a catchphrase and some personality. Booking a characters strong points and downplaying their weaknesses is not a strange thing to do. If you a girl with bad teeth and big perky boobs which ones are you gonna show off?

 

 

Taker/Selling/Hardy/ETC-

 

I think any match that is booked properly is believable. Jus because the WWE has their head up their ass doesnt mean everybody has to. For some reason people keep calling Taker out..

 

The casual fan knows this and pays attention to it...and you honestly think they'd believe it if Rey Mysterio beat Batista...despite it being scripted? What if Andre the Giant lost to Marty Jannetty, would people buy that? What if Jeff Hardy beat the Undertaker? No, hell no, and...lol@him jobbing. You can do it if the time is right with certain guys (who have a history of being one of the absolute best) and its booked right (Eddie over Brock, Benoit vs. Brock, Cena over Big Show at WM 20, etc.) and the fans will take to it. Mysterio?

During his Big Evil the Red devil phase Taker had his best matches with smaller opponents, WHICH HE SOLD FOR. During his hardcore title run he had a great match with RVD. Taker hadnt been sellling or even coming close to putting anybody over in awhile. While beating RVD takers reaction following the match was his "crazy old man stare". This became his form of selling while not holding his ribs in pain or something like that, Taker would appear winded and worn out with a "what the fuck did I jus go through" look on his face. When he wanted to put over his opponent hed give em a "damn son" type looking.Physically stating that his opponent had taken him to the limit. This was showcased again and at its best in the summer of '02, There was a RAW MAIN EVENT when Taker was WWE heaveyweight champ. His opponent was Jeff Hardy. At this point Hardy was still farily over and dont forget, everybody used to think hed be the breakout hardy boy. Jeff Hardy was dangerous not because of his size but because of his crazy moves and risk taking. He had a unique persona and could take a beating. He was not overly muscular or imposing. The match in question was a ladder match. Once again these factors have been booked to make Hardy look strong, enhancing his strengths, and not his weknesses (size, weirdness etc) In this bout Taker once again used his "crazy old man stare" and "damn son" look of acknowledgement. IIRC the crowd was behind Hardy 100% and while the pessemistic and cynical smarks mightve not bought it, from a wrestling match standpoint it was credible. In the end Taker won but once again gave Hardy mad respect thus putting him over in his own Undertaker way. Takers not one to commend to many opponents after the match but Hardy was one. Correct me if Im wrong but he even shook his hand or raised his arm or something. If the both the fans and the company are behind them then most wrestlers Taker included would put them over jus like he did for Austin and others

 

 

Jus because Rey or any other solid perfromer who is over with the fans doesnt fit certain profile that Smarks have gone of on their own made up doesnt mean a damn thing. The people whove stated this things really havent pointed out anything worthwhile. Why would you guys discrimnate against someone who would be good for business? Entertaining us and making the WWE money? Focusing on the performers appearance when it doesnt need to be an issue is shallow and shows a lack of creativity from the bookers and imagination from the fans.

[Al]

Rey Mysterio- Al mentioned that Rey weighed 140 lbs when he debuted. I coulda swore when they did the Tale of the Tape on the SD! special they said Rey weighed 150. Im not sure what Als point was but gaining 10 lbs in like 15 years isnt that crazy. For an adult male of his height its really not that ridiculous. If someones gonna assume that Reys on steroids hey should use evidence that makes sense.

Kayfabed weights are hardly accurate. Hey, Rey could be on steroids and I hope I'm wrong. But I think it's naive to think that a substantial portion of the WWE roster is not juicing.

[JHawk]

During his Big Evil the Red devil phase Taker had his best matches with smaller opponents, WHICH HE SOLD FOR. During his hardcore title run he had a great match with RVD. Taker hadnt been sellling or even coming close to putting anybody over in awhile. While beating RVD takers reaction following the match was his "crazy old man stare". This became his form of selling while not holding his ribs in pain or something like that, Taker would appear winded and worn out with a "what the fuck did I jus go through" look on his face. When he wanted to put over his opponent hed give em a "damn son" type looking.Physically stating that his opponent had taken him to the limit. This was showcased again and at its best in the summer of '02, There was a RAW MAIN EVENT when Taker was WWE heaveyweight champ. His opponent was Jeff Hardy. At this point Hardy was still farily over and dont forget, everybody used to think hed be the breakout hardy boy. Jeff Hardy was dangerous not because of his size but because of his crazy moves and risk taking. He had a unique persona and could take a beating. He was not overly muscular or imposing. The match in question was a ladder match. Once again these factors have been booked to make Hardy look strong, enhancing his strengths, and not his weknesses (size, weirdness etc) In this bout Taker once again used his "crazy old man stare" and "damn son" look of acknowledgement. IIRC the crowd was behind Hardy 100% and while the pessemistic and cynical smarks mightve not bought it, from a wrestling match standpoint it was credible. In the end Taker won but once again gave Hardy mad respect thus putting him over in his own Undertaker way. Takers not one to commend to many opponents after the match but Hardy was one. Correct me if Im wrong but he even shook his hand or raised his arm or something. If the both the fans and the company are behind them then most wrestlers Taker included would put them over jus like he did for Austin and others

Here's all you needed to know about the Hardy-Taker ladder match, and you can read my old Raw recaps on TSM to prove it. I went into that ladder match thinking, "Yeah right, like Hardy can beat Taker." By the time that match ended, even I thought Hardy might just take it for a cup of coffee. The story of the match was that good.

[Guest savagerulz]

Jus because Rey or any other solid perfromer who is over with the fans doesnt fit certain profile that Smarks have gone of on their own made up doesnt mean a damn thing. The people whove stated this things really havent pointed out anything worthwhile. Why would you guys discrimnate against someone who would be good for business? Entertaining us and making the WWE money? Focusing on the performers appearance when it doesnt need to be an issue is shallow and shows a lack of creativity from the bookers and imagination from the fans.

The fans that can appreciate the technical aspects will look more at the actual skill, but the regular fans pay attention to size. Part of that is due to that most people that don't know how to fight will get their ass kicked by someone who is bigger than they are. And in a lot of cases, even a trained/skilled person will get beat by someone that's bigger purely due to weight/size. There are exceptions (which was one of the great things about early UFC), but more often than not the bigger guy wins. With that in mind, look at professional wrestling and the majority of its fans. Even if professional wrestling is a sport that has a pre-determined winner and the suspension of disbelief factor is in play, it's still supposed to mimic combat to a certain degree. As a result, many "little" guys are not going to beat a lot of "big" guys. There are exceptions at times, but it's rare. Watching Little Spike Dudley give an Acid Drop to Mike Awesome in ECW might've been cool, but in WWE he's not going to walk over all of their giants. It just isn't believable. Eddie, for example, wasn't a giant, but he was just big enough and incredibly skilled enough to be seen as a credible World Champion (as was Benoit). Mysterio is talented, and he could pull off the odd win on a big guy once in a while... but he's not going to by a world heavyweight champion. There's a certain degree that they can draw with some fans... they just aren't going to pull it off on the grand scale.

 

The people whove stated this things really havent pointed out anything worthwhile/

There are examples of lighter guys who got a shot at the big time and failed to draw from way back in the wrestling business that further proves my point about how rare it is for lighter guys to get a chance to be main eventers. Ad Santel, Charles Olsen, George Tragos... all where tremendous wrestlers, true greats of wrestling and considered to be some of the most dangerous people you could have ever crossed paths with... but none of them were the draws of an Ed Lewis, Frank Gotch, or George Hackenschmidt. Arguments of skill aside, the difference as far as the gate was concerned was weight class. Gotch, Lewis, and Hack were heavyweights; big guys that you could be afraid of and not be looked at as a pansy. Santel, Olsen, and Tragos were arguably lethal on the mat (I know Olsen killed at least two wrestlers, not sure about Tragos or Santel), but they were smaller guys, not as intimidating in appearance.

[sek69]

I love when Q makes long posts in a thread that don't fit in to anything else being said.

 

 

Savagerulz, did you recently become Trevor Murdochs cardiologist and didnt tell us? Considering hes a prefessional athlete theres a good chance that he works out and keeps himself in shape, even though it doesnt seem that way on the surface. You cant always tell a persons health problems jus by looking at them.

 

 

News flash: fat people tend to have heart problems. Just like the roid monkeys put strain on their heart, so does fat. The difference is with fat guys, they get fat over a longer period of time so their body can adjust to the extra weight more than a roider's heart can. That's why Abdullah is going to end up outliving most guys who started 20 years after he did.

 

I knew someone would bring up the Taker-Jeff match, pointing out everyone thought Jeff had a chance to win at the end.

 

Well guess what, he didn't.

 

Guys like Taker and HHH can make anyone look like a world beater for one night, but they'll never job to them. If they do, expect a payback squash within a week.

 

That's my whole point right there. You're going to have a hard time getting the fans to buy small guys beating big guys when you're having a harder time convincing the big guys to do the job.

[Guest savagerulz]

The sad thing is as soon as this steroid/growth hormone phase passes the WWE will be back to pushing jacked up nimrods like Masters and guys like Murdoch would be out on their ass because creative has nothing for them.

[Guest SweetMama Scaat]

I love when Sek calls me Q and makes short post that still hasnt proved a valid point.

 

 

News flash: fat people tend to have heart problems. Just like the roid monkeys put strain on their heart, so does fat. The difference is with fat guys, they get fat over a longer period of time so their body can adjust to the extra weight more than a roider's heart can

Sek, if I saw you and you were fat, and I was like "Hey SEK, You should get your cholesterol checked and stop eating butter by the truckload." You should be a lil offended, I dont know a damn thing about your personal health. Jus because youve got some extra meat on your bones doesnt mean we should be under the impression that youre gonna keel over any minute.

 

That's why Abdullah is going to end up outliving most guys who started 20 years after he did.

Exaclty. Abbys still around and Davey Boy Smith isnt. King Kong Bundy and Kamala are still kicking and Rick Rude passed away years ago. Between big fat Kamala and the cut up Rick Rude which one would you expect to be in better health? Thats what Im saying jus because a person looks in worse physical condition doesnt mean they are. Theres alot of wrestlers who looked better than Trevor Murdoch who are no loner with us.

 

 

I knew someone would bring up the Taker-Jeff match, pointing out everyone thought Jeff had a chance to win at the end.

 

Well guess what, he didn't.

 

Guys like Taker and HHH can make anyone look like a world beater for one night, but they'll never job to them. If they do, expect a payback squash within a week.

When did I say Hardy beat Taker? He didnt, thats been well established but Taker did put him over. On alot of levels its more important to lose and look like a millions buck than to win and look like pure shit.

 

Now is the argument your making that H and Taker wont ever job to someone smaller/uglier or that the crowd wont by a smaller/uglier wrestler as champ? Yalls side of the debate keeps changing.

 

Taker and H job RARELY to begin with. So I hope thats not your argument. They pretty much job when they feel like and their opponents size have nothing to do wiht it. Big Show, Kane, Booker T and Kurt Angle to name A FEW have all been on the losing end of fueds to The Undertaker and Triple H. What does THEIR size have to do with it? Regardless of who the wrestler is Taker and HHH will do what they want, cause they can.

 

That's my whole point right there. You're going to have a hard time getting the fans to buy small guys beating big guys when you're having a harder time convincing the big guys to do the job.

The fans dont have a problem with it, a few cynical smarks and the Brain Trust at TSM do. Rey and Road Dogg have been plenty over. The crowd STAYS behind them. Theres a whole list of major draws/ Great Champions who didnt fit a certain criteria. JYD, Samoa Joe, etc dont fit with yalls interpetation of the wrestlers perfect body type. Chris Benoit does but OH NO, hes short! Yet H put him over at this biggest shoe of the year and he didnt have to. They couldve easily booked it with him going over HBK. Or H couldve won altogether. Hes the only heel to walk out of big title matches as the "over" one. Both at WM 2000 AND 19 he came out on top of his respective main event matches.

 

If they have that "It" factor that fans can connect with then there should be no reason they arnt put over. Once again even HHH and Taker recognize this. Hart, HBK, Austin and others whom are smaller than Taker have gone over him on several occasions. If the performers involved are talented enough just about anything can be successful on a grand scale.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Could someone please answer my question as to why it is unbelievable for smaller or physically unimpressive guys to be World Champion while we are meant to accept that people don't notice cameras inches away from their faces, a person can make lightning strike indoors, a guy is able to return from the dead over half a dozen times, The Boogeyman and other stranger things (like being able to see what Randy Orton is hallucinating on SD!) especially since everything about wrestling is rigged and they've currently got the IC belt on a guy who is 50+ who has tan-induced bitchtits?

[Guest savagerulz]

In the WWF, the way things have gone traditionally, you gotta be big. And muscular (which is a different matter from being "in shape," btw, but works for any arguing on this thread). Does it have to be that way? Yes. Period. They don't know how to book any other way. In the main event, the WWF has only drawn money with big face champions. They don't know how to do it any other way, and they've conditioned their fans for decades in this way.

[sek69]

Cam and others will get their answer when they look back at the last 20-30 years (at least) of professional wrestling and see there's never been a world champion as small as Rey in WWF/E or NWA/WCW.

[Coffey]

That raises an interesting question. Out of all the professional wrestling promotions, who is the shortest World Champion there's ever been? Mikey Whipwreck in ECW? How tall was he?

[sek69]

I really wouldn't consider ECW's title a world title. I think only the WWF/E, WCW, NWA, and the AWA until 1990 qualify.