All Japan Excite Series #16

[JerryvonKramer]

http://placetobenation.com/all-japan-excite-series-16/



To support this show, please re-tweet this: https://twitter.com/JerryvonK/status/709005810580504576

12/05/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue
05/01/98 - Hiroshi Hase vs. Jun Akiyama
05/01/98 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada
06/12/98 - Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada
07/24/98 - Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama

[JerryvonKramer]

Ratings:

 

 

12/05/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****

05/01/98 - Hiroshi Hase vs. Jun Akiyama

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ***3/4

05/01/98 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

06/12/98 - Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/4

07/24/98 - Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama

Parv: *****
Steven: ****1/2

 

[JerryvonKramer]

For stats nerds, here are some analytics on the ratings with one show to go:

Matches reviewed: 70
Parv higher: 24
Steven higher: 29
Same: 17 (first time in show #3)

Parv 5-star: 10
Steven 5-star: 7

Parv 4.75: 9
Steven 4.75: 8

Parv 4.5: 13
Steven 4.5: 17

Parv 4.25: 0
Steven 4.25: 17

Parv 4-star: 16
Steven 4-star: 8

Parv: 3.75: 4
Steven: 3.75: 6

Parv 3.5: 10
Steven 3.5: 2

Parv Lowest rating: 2.5 (10/25/95 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright)
Steve Lowest rating: 2.5 (06/06/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada)

Complete ratings:

SHOW #1 - October 2014
05/26/90 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Akira Taue vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Kabuki & Masa Fuchi

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/4

06/08/90 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jumbo Tsuruta

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/2

09/01/90 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jumbo Tsuruta

Parv: *****
Steven: ****3/4

09/30/90 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/2

SHOW #2 - November 2014

10/19/90 Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

01/15/91 Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ****1/4

04/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi

Parv: *****
Steven: ****3/4

09/04/91 Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ****


SHOW #3 - December 2014
09/04/91 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

10/15/91 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi

Parv: ****
Steven: ****

10/24/91 - Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ****1/4

11/29/91 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/2

SHOW #4 - January 2015
01/21/92 – Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ***
Steven: ****1/4

05/22/92 – Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/2

05/25/92 – Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****3/4

05/30/92 – Mitsuharu Misawa & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue

Parv: ***3/4
Steven: ***3/4

SHOW #5 - February 2015
06/05/92 – Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

07/05/92 – Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Masa Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/2

08/20/92 – Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

10/07/92 – Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/4

SHOW #6 - March 2015
10/21/92 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ***3/4
Steven: ****1/2

11/27/92 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/4

01/30/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ***3/4

02/28/93 Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: *****
Steven: *****

SHOW #7 - April 2015
04/12/93 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

06/01/93 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/2

07/09/93 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ***3/4

07/19/93 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Masa Fuchi

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

SHOW #8 - May 2015
Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (7/29/93)

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: *****

Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (8/31/93)

Parv: ****
Steven: ****

Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (10/23/93)

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ****1/2

Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (12/3/93)

Parv: *****
Steven: ****3/4

SHOW #9 - June 2015
04/16/94 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/2

05/21/94 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: *****
Steven: ****3/4

06/03/94 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: *****
Steven: *****

07/22/94 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/4

SHOW #10 - July 2015

07/28/94 - Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****3/4

01/19/95 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi


Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ****1/2

01/24/95 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ***1/2

03/21/95 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****3/4

03/26/95 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ****

04/08/95 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

04/13/95 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

04/15/95 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue

Parv: *****
Steven: *****

SHOW #11 - September 2015
06/09/95 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: *****
Steven: *****

07/24/95 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

07/24/95 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/4

10/15/95 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: ***3/4
Steven: ****

SHOW #12 - October 2015
10/25/95 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright

Parv: **1/2
Steven: ****

04/20/96 - Steve Williams vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/4

05/23/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/4

06/07/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Parv: ***3/4
Steven: ***3/4

SHOW #13 - November 2015
07/09/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue


Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/4

07/24/96 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****1/2

09/05/96 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

09/05/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Parv: ***1/2
Steven: ***1/2

SHOW #14 - December 2015
10/18/96 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: ****
Steven: n/a

10/18/96 - Akira Taue, Giant Baba & Dory Funk Jr vs Mitsuharu Misawa, Jumbo Tsuruta & Jun Akiyama

Parv: ***
Steven: **3/4

11/16/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Parv: ****
Steven: ***3/4

11/22/96 - Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

11/29/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****3/4

SHOW #15 - January 2016
12/06/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

Parv: *****
Steven: *****

01/20/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: *****
Steven: *****

06/06/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ***
Steven: **1/2

10/21/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****

SHOW #16 - February 2016
12/05/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ****

05/01/98 - Hiroshi Hase vs. Jun Akiyama

Parv: ****1/2
Steven: ***3/4

05/01/98 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ****
Steven: ****1/2

06/12/98 - Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada

Parv: ****3/4
Steven: ****1/4

07/24/98 - Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama

Parv: *****
Steven: ****1/2

 

[Eegah]

Another great show fellas. Love the episode artwork with my main man Kawada on top of the world.

[Childs]

Regarding the conversation about booking, I don't think Kawada was ever regarded as the potential successor to the Jumbo-Misawa line. He was, rather, the antagonist in chief, with a deep personal connection to Misawa that added poignancy to his doomed quest. Kobashi was positioned as the successor. Their assaults on Mount Misawa unfolded in parallel, but I never felt Kobashi and Kawada were competing for the same spot.

[pol]

Re: modern wrestling, I think there's a few non-NJPW Japanese promotions that would not offend Parv's sensibilities as far as style and presentation goes. Particularly Akiyama's AJPW and the BJW heavyweight stuff. Whether he'd think the wrestling is any good is another issue, but there is at least still wrestling out there with a sincere, serious presentation and fanbase.

[pol]

I'm not a huge fan of the Kawada/Misawa Dome match, and I also haven't seen it in a while so hopefully I'm not way off on this, but from what I remember the whole match is structured around Kawada understanding the deadliness of the Misawa comeback and trying his damnedest to cut it off at every opportunity. I don't think Misawa ever truly gets an extended comeback, which is what enables Kawada to win. Contrast that with the vast majority of matches ever, where the babyface is getting their comeback in regardless of if the heel is going over or not. Touches like that show that these guys were thinking about match structure/narrative on a higher level than pretty much anyone else in history, I think.

[BigBadMick]

Been meaning to ask, what's that 'lasers, day one. Eight o'clock' clip from?

[JerryvonKramer]

It's from one of my 80s faves, Time Bandits.

[WingedEagle]

While I knew it wasn't, the clip sounded like something I'd expect to hear from an SNL alumni movie. Great stuff. That South Park bit midway through needs some editing though -- so long

 

Appreciated the love for Kobashi/Akiyama here. The Dome match gets most of the attention, and while I can see arguing for both, this was a sneaky under the radar rivalry that produced big matches over a pretty long period.

[Grimmas]

Anyone like Steven's points?

[soup23]

I told Parv that I pictured unicorns dancing around while listening to it.

[BigBadMick]

Great podcast, with loads of interesting talking points.

 

Looking forward to the Parv vs Meltzer and JDW handicap match for the true history of 1990s AJPW.

[JerryvonKramer]

I did get my re-tweet from Cornette by the way!

[Luchaundead]

Anyone like Steven's points?

Big fan of Steve points especially the music

[JAC]

Regarding the conversation about booking, I don't think Kawada was ever regarded as the potential successor to the Jumbo-Misawa line. He was, rather, the antagonist in chief, with a deep personal connection to Misawa that added poignancy to his doomed quest. Kobashi was positioned as the successor. Their assaults on Mount Misawa unfolded in parallel, but I never felt Kobashi and Kawada were competing for the same spot.

 

You beat me to it. The Misawa-Kawada dynamic mirrored that of Tsuruta-Tenryu. Both were sets of peers, similar in age (Kawada was only 18 months younger than Misawa, while Tenryu was actually over 13 months older than Tsuruta). Kawada and Tenryu were fighting to dislodge their longtime rival from his perch on top, but although each was destined to earn some victories, neither was to ultimately win the war.

 

The Misawa-Kobashi dynamic was somewhat closer to Tsuruta-Misawa, with Kobashi being akin to the young Misawa. Kobashi was the man destined to be Misawa's successor, although he was really still part of Misawa's generation (being only five years younger). The relative nearness in age leaves the Tsuruta-Misawa comparison somewhat wanting. Kobashi vis-à-vis Misawa is more akin to Kojima and Tenzan vis-à-vis Mutoh, Chono and Hashimoto (recall that Hashimoto was only five years older than Kojima!)

 

One cool thing about all of this was seeing Misawa trying to fend off challenges by his arch nemesis (Kawada) and his would-be successor (Kobashi) more or less concurrently from 1995 onwards, rather than consecutively (as Jumbo did by feuding with Tenryu, then Misawa, in succession).

 

Getting back to the comparisons used on the podcast, rather than equating Flair-Steamboat with Misawa-Kobashi and Flair-Garvin with Misawa-Kawada, I would say that if Misawa is Flair, Kawada is Steamboat and Taue is Garvin (and recall that Garvin beat Flair for the title before Steamboat did!). Kobashi is more like Luger or Sting (but with less age gap). I think that leaves Akiyama in the role of Brian Pillman!

 

Anyone like Steven's points?

 

I liked the points, but the My Little Pony music made me shudder. So creepy...

[Dylan Waco]

I watched Kobashi and Akiyama this morning. I did think it was a great match, but watching it a few things stuck out to me that I'd like to hear Parv, Steven, and others talk about.

 

First would be my big criticism of the match - they went to the crazy head drop stuff REALLY early here. I didn't think it fatally hurt the match obviously as I came out of it loving it anyhow, but it really jumped off the page to me as a little ridiculous that Akiyama was eating brutal neck crunching suplexes on the floor relatively early on. They played it as well as they could have, but that's the sort of thing I'm not sure people should be recovering from at all in the context of a match, let alone taking over for an extended control segment just a few minutes later.

 

Secondly watching this it really made Parv's comments about mugging for the camera feel like an oddball criticism because man is Kobashi as hysterical and camera conscious a performer as there was in in this era. I don't hate it (though it does irk me at times), but to me it feels like an uneven critique to hit Suzuki/Tanahashi for something like that and not this match. Or maybe I still don't know what Parv means by that.

 

I thought the psychology, selling, offense and drama in the match were great. I wasn't enamored with the way some of the bombs were used as I mentioned earlier, but not enough to really argue that it was a substantial detriment to the match. Having said that I recently watched Akiyama v. Nagata and Akiyama v. Tenzan and I honestly didn't think this match was clearly better than either.

 

My point isn't that Kobashi v. Akiyama wasn't great, but rather that the greatness of Akiyama as a singles worker is really drastically underrated and obscured in large part because of the massive changes to Japanese wrestling that came about right as he was ascending into the top tier. I've seen the notion of Akiyama as a top ten worker scoffed at as an absurdity several times recently, but the reality is that the guys run as a very good to great worker is longer than Kobashi and Kawada, and it's at least arguable that he has great maches with a more varied field than those guys and Misawa as well (I'd want to look more closely before I made that claim for sure, but my instinct is to say it's true). Even if you want to argue that the best Akiyama heights don't hit the heights of the best matches from those three, I think the dismissive tone of Akiyama as a potential top ten guy is really unwarranted especially when we have people advancing the argument that Bret Hart is a top ten candidate off of a five year peak with a handful of great matches before and after it (take that Steven!).

[Luchaundead]

I also just watched Kobashi v Akiyama last night and while I felt Akiyama was clearly a game participant if not even the better performer but, the bigger take away was more that Kobashi was even at this point clearly not a "ring general" to the degree of his contemporaries. I've at times refereed to Kobashi as the dumb muscle of the pillars and at times when he in called upon to lead a match he really doesn't have as much substance other than big athletic bomb throwing.

 

The argument for Akiyama as an all time great worker is strong based solely on his in-ring but I question if wrestling is an art form that can be seen as so subjective that we can except that a top 10 all time great worker can be "not appreciated in his time" like with more traditional arts or if wrestling with its tight roots in carney/bussiness we can say someone is that level of all time worker without ever really connecting with a crowd in a way that causes them to emotionally and financially invest in them

[Dylan Waco]

I would argue that Akiyama was appreciated in his time on both a critical level (i.e. by hardcore fans who were actually watching) and on a more superficial level.

 

The big advocates for Akiyama as a top ten guy are people who followed Japanese wrestling in a major way throughout the 00's and/or people who started watching in that period. They argue - and I believe they are correct in arguing this - that Akiyama was the best worker in Japan for that decade (some argue KENTA, but Akiyama is almost universally seen as no worse than 2 or 3) and one of the best five wrestlers in the World at minimum for that cumulative period. Those who watched the post AJPW split footage in the most volume and/or in the most consistent fashion seem to have come to this conclusion.

 

On the more superficial level, I think Akiyama's failures to connect on a drawing level have been historically overstated. Obviously he ain't drawing shit now, but if you look at the period after the AJPW split through the peak of the NOAH years there is quite a lot of evidence that Akiyama was viewed as and respected as a top guy by Japanese fans. To be perfectly frank, his drawing record from 00-06ish or so is better than any run of a comparable length of time for Tanahashi, Nakamura, Okada (a bit unfair because he doesn't have that many years as a top guy yet), et. But there is a narrative that has been created around Akiyama and a narrative that has been created around those NJPW guys and those narratives tend to shape how we view them as stars.

 

I'm not even sure I agree with the argument you seem to be making (or at least putting forward), but even if I did I don't think Akiyama is an example of someone who really fails in that regard.

[Luchaundead]

Akiyama is great very clearly he's curse by living in the shadows of workers that were seen as all time legends during there prime runs but anything other than improved houses and more 5 star classics were going to be seen as failure by Akiyama whole Tana and Nak were seen as building up from the ashes of Inokism so any up tick is seen as success for them.

 

Is this fair? No. Is it even correct? Probably not but, it's pretty obvious why people would see it that way even if Akiyama had the better career and is more talented.

 

There is an argument in here to say that wrestling bussiness much like any financial market is prone to ebbs and flows that shouldn't be placed squarely on the shoulders of who's is seen as the "top guy" of the day because Akiyama does not deserve all the blame for riding a wave down the same that Tana doesn't deserve all the credit for riding one upward.

 

The real point is Akiyama top 10 all time worker? Maybe. Although I could say that if most people aren't passionate enough to say for sure yes or no about a wrestler as an all time great then they probably arent.

[Dylan Waco]

And I would say that people are saying for sure that think Akiyama is and it's being casually dismissed, in many cases by people who I'm not even sure have watched that much of his 00's-present run

[GOTNW]

First would be my big criticism of the match - they went to the crazy head drop stuff REALLY early here. I didn't think it fatally hurt the match obviously as I came out of it loving it anyhow, but it really jumped off the page to me as a little ridiculous that Akiyama was eating brutal neck crunching suplexes on the floor relatively early on. They played it as well as they could have, but that's the sort of thing I'm not sure people should be recovering from at all in the context of a match, let alone taking over for an extended control segment just a few minutes later.

 

To me that early portion was crucial in the match being as great as it was. I see that match and Misawa/Akiyama 27/2/2000 as the last takes on King's Road. Yes, Akiyama recovered and took control of the match, but the damage never went away, and him taking so much punishment early on let them not do the usual "million nearfalls" finishing stretch.

[Dylan Waco]

I could see that argument. As I said before it didn't kill the match for me, it was jarring to see it done so early in a bout.

[Grimmas]

I could see that argument. As I said before it didn't kill the match for me, it was jarring to see it done so early in a bout.

Yeah, that is what kept it at like 4 1/2 and not 5 stars like Parv had it for me.

[Luchaundead]

And I would say that people are saying for sure that think Akiyama is and it's being casually dismissed, in many cases by people who I'm not even sure have watched that much of his 00's-present run

 

I would say this is undoubtedly true as a low percentage of people have watched that period at all