Chris Benoit

[Coffey]

Maybe it does deserve it's own thread but I don't like Chris Benoit. I never really have. He's certainly had good matches in the past but for the most part, I find him extremely boring. To me, it takes a lot more than having good matches to be a good wrestler. Maybe that's why I'm a WWE fan?

This does deserve it's own thread. I say start the topic.

So, here we are. Since I made a new thread, I thought I should add more content to the original post and perhaps expand on my opinion more.

 

Chris Benoit is pretty much the embodiment of "smark-darling." He has a ton of wrestling experience, great selling, good facial expressions and he's one of the best wrestlers currently active as far as it pertains to psychology. He's put on great matches in countries all over the world. He's worked for ECW, WCW & WWE. He trained in the infamous "Hart Dungeon." So, why then, do I find him so boring? It's certainly not what he does in the ring. I've found several of his matches gripping, such as his Royal Rumble match with Kurt Angle. However, even that match, to me, took awhile to get started. Maybe it's because he's so universally loved on-line that my expectations for him are raised too high? Or maybe, just maybe, it's because he lacks that certain "it" to put him on the next level as an entertaining superstar. That superstar quality. The charisma and out-of-ring quality. Perhaps it's because my attention span is too low and I don't want to sit around and wait for his matches to start getting good? Has WWE brainwashed me into being accustomed to short, "WWE style" matches that are "right to the point" so to speak. So, when Angle/Benoit are given half an hour to work, the first ten minutes feels like filler to me instead of building a story. I don't know.

 

To me, like I previously said, it takes more than just great in-ring work to be considered a good wrestler. As much as people hate WWE and Vince McMahon, he has a point whenever he talks about "making movies" or "telling stories." As lame as a lot of the shit is, you can't just throw great workers into the ring with no rhyme or reason, tell them to have a great match and have that be the end of it. Look at Ring of Honor. So many great matches that each month dozens are forgotten. That's how Benoit comes off to me. Forgotten. His character consists of "I can wrestle good, so I'll beat you" and that's, really, about it. That is boring. I've watched Benoit in the J-Cup tournament in Japan. I watched him when he was a member of the IV Horsement in WCW. I've seen him win the WWE World Title at Wrestlemania by making HHH tap-out in the main event. It's all been good...but I'd still take a "sing-along with the Rock" over all of it.

 

Also, because it's a thread about Benoit, here's an animated gif that my friend Jeremy made with Pivot Stick Figure Animator entitled "Benoit's Last Day." I got a kick out of it:

[Loss]

The appeal of Benoit is that he's consistently great, but you did give him credit for that. He's wrestled every style in just about every place there is to work, and he's set or raised the bar in many of those cases. Benoit is awesome because he's a total workhorse, and he's not conventional. He's not over the top because he doesn't have to be. He does have a lot of charisma actually, because if he didn't, his matches wouldn't get over as well as they do.

 

He's just a great wrestler. That's all anyone claims him to be, and that's all he ever is. Yes, you needs Rocks and Hogans, but wrestling needs Benoits too. It's not so much a character weakness of his as it is that the environment he's in thinks that you must be over the top to get over. HHH doesn't really have any charisma himself (I'd argue less than Benoit), but he's been pushed at a top level for a such a long time that people buy him there.

[Coffey]

I don't think it's fair that WWE gave Chris Benoit a "thank you" title run when Rick Rude never got one and he had more tools than Benoit. DiBiase and Hennig too. Of course, since when has wrestling ever been fair? Different era's anyway.

 

Maybe it's because the internet wasn't the monster that it is today back when those three were in the midcard of WWF but I don't get a lot of the Benoit love. I'm more impressed when a bad wrestler has a good match than when a good wrestler continues to have good matches. I was genuinely surprised at the Smackdown where Henry beat Rey for example. Compare that to Finlay/Benoit from this last Judgment Day PPV.

[Mad Dog]

I'd actually argue that Benoit has a very well defined character. It's just not beating you over the head constantly like the other WWF personalities do. It doesn't stand out but his character is probably the most consistent and logical one on the roster. He never acts out of character which is a rarity in the WWF these days. He does have charisma though as crowds are always into his matches and tend to get more into them the longer time goes.

 

Now as far as today I think he's lost a couple of steps in the ring. I don't get nearly as excited for his matches as I used to but then I'm that way with everything WWF related.

[Coffey]

OK, so argue it then. What's this "well defined character" of Benoits? He's a "wrestling machine~!" How is he better, kayfabe-wise, than Kurt Angle?

 

I'd argue that Benoit has more intensity than charisma. People flock to the great intensity that he brings, like Goldberg.

[Mad Dog]

Chris Benoit's character during his whole run has been that he's a killer in the ring. And he's stuck to that. Face or heel it's still been about stepping in the ring and destroying whoever comes up against him. Samoa Joe is playing essentially the same character in TNA. Plenty of people have played a similar persona over the years and never were considered to be lacking in character. In this day and age you have to be a pedophile or a pimp or an evil dentist or whatever to be considered having character in wrestling.

[Guest Dorian]

The problem with Benoit's character isn't that he's blue collar wrestler in his character, but its the fact that's about all we know about him. Yes, he's sweated and bleed for this sport, but what else do we know about him as a person? Unless you get a Chris Benoit DVD, you only see the intensity, his work ethic and the killer of Benoit. Yes, Benoit doesn't need to be funny or that, but you need a way to relate to him. And with only three viable ways to relate its sometimes hard to do so for some people.

 

I think the best thing for him, was during his "dream run" for the WWE title. Everyone could relate to working hard for a dream, and accomplishing that goal and then living it out "the reality".

 

So he does have character and he does in fact have charisma, because during that time he could easily connect with the crowd. But unless you play up stuff people can easily relate to, you go right back to the three ones he has before and you get stuck in a rut because people can't always get behind to the three ones previous.

 

...at least that's my opinion.

[Guest DylanWaco]

Ohtani's Jacket who I respect alot and have conversed with about wrestling for years said on SC the other day that he thinks Benoit is better now than ever. While I don't think I agree with that, I think that Benoit in the last few years has finally started to realize that wrestling is more than just the smooth application of moves and wrestling at a great pace. I'm not saying that's all he did before, because he's always been mechanically excellent, but I think he's finally understanding the importance of connecting to the crowd in such a way that ever nuance can be grasped. That probably sounds overly arty or whatever, but I can't really explain it any better than that.

 

I think Benoit is a top fifteen wrestler of all time, because he's been consistently great. Mechanically I don't know that there has ever been a better wrestler, at least not at his peak. In recent years he's lot a good bit of his moveset and his execution and he relies on a formula that I don't like, but his selling has been better than it's ever been and his facial expressions have been also. Benoit is wierd in that most "marks" (I hate that term) buy Benoit as really tough and want to see him face the big names, but they don't want him with the title because he doesn't have the "it' that Coffey is talking about. Personally my biggest beef with Benoit is that he is pretty much the only transcendantly awesome wrestler who doesn't have any transcendingly great match or series.

[Coffey]

Alright, here's a sort of different way to take this thread. When talking about "workrate" (a term that I'm not too keen on) Benoit's name is often mentioned towards the top of the list, when composing a list. Of course, so is Kurt Angle, whom most "smarks" would agree is beneath Benoit in terms of "workrate." So, if you were to make an all-encompassing list, everything that it takes to be successful in the wrestling business...is Benoit still there?

 

That's kind of my perspective on the thing. The Rock wasn't an amazing wrestler really but he'd certainly be on "the list." I don't know if Benoit would.

 

People talk about matches as if they're art and what the wrestlers do in the ring is an artform. Well, if that's the case, everything the wrestlers do is part of the same art and Benoit fails in some departments whereas others don't. If you're on camera, you're performing. When looking at the whole picture, it seems a lot of other workers bring more to the table, as a whole, than Benoit. However, for whatever reason, Benoit seems to get a free pass because his in-ring is that good. Take away the bell-to-bell from Benoit and what's left? Not a lot. Take away the out-of-ring from The Rock and what's left? Enough to get by.

 

Does that make sense? It's sort of a moot point because wrestling should play to wrestlers strengths but even in ECW Heyman was trying to get Benoit over on the stick. Wrestling is a business. You have to sell the fans on wanting to see a match. So, why do the fans want to watch any of Benoit's matches? He's not a compelling character and he never has great storylines building to blowoff matches. He's just a good wrestler.

 

I don't know how well this relates but my favorite parts of wrestling, the memorable moments, aren't usually entire matches. It's the simple stuff, like Austin coming out and hitting the Stunner on Regal because he was reading Hamlet. Or HBK throwing Jannetty out the Barbershop window. When those moments build to a match, then I care about the match. I like the wrestling aspect outside of matches a lot. Like random run-ins to hit finishers...not like WCW did with every match ending in a screwjob...but like Raven hitting Evenflow DDT's when he wasn't in a match or Kevin Nash coming out to Jackknife Powerbomb X-Divison wrestlers after they've already lost.

[Guest Local Jobber R]

Take away the bell-to-bell from Benoit and what's left? Not a lot.

Maybe if the damn announcers got off of their damn crutches of saying catch phrases over and over a million times and attempt to put over Beniot as the most consistent technical pro wrestling of our era then people won't care if he is fighting some rookie kid straight out of college or a rival from his past.

[Loss]

Benoit's exactly where he should be at the moment, as someone who puts over guys on the way up the ladder by having great matches with them, revitalizing people on the way down by doing the same and being kept strong himself. No one is making the Benoit/Rock comparison in terms of who's a better headliner, and no one has ever called Benoit the total package. I think you may be having an argument no one else is having, Coffey.

 

Benoit is a wrestler. Everyone is. Take away the bell-to-bell stuff and you have something he's not even trying to be.

[Coffey]

I understand that, Rock was just my example because he's the glaring name that stands out. Why? Because when Rock was still active, he was bashed on-line and Benoit has always been praised. "The Rock can't wrestle." "Another twenty minute promo." etc.

 

To me, Benoit is no better than Rhyno. Benoit is certainly a better worker than Rhyno but...once again, they just do shit in the ring and I sit on my hands for the most part.

 

I think Benoit is in the spot he should be in right now...but that doesn't mean when his music hits I stand up and start cheering.

 

Benoit isn't the total package...but why does everyone overlook his weaknesses all the time? By everyone I mean people like Wild Pegasus who seem to live for Benoit and Benoit alone. TSM, DVDVR, etc. Benoit is universally praised simply because of his ring work, yet other people can't be universally praised for an area that they accel at? It's fickle.

 

It's like everyone name drops Benoit 'cause they've seen other people name drop him.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I don't think it's fair that WWE gave Chris Benoit a "thank you" title run when Rick Rude never got one and he had more tools than Benoit. DiBiase and Hennig too.

There was never a time when any of those three guys should have been WWF champion. They didn't do Russo-style quick title reigns to swerve the fans back then.

[World's Worst Man]

My problem with Benoit isn't even really him, it's just how overrated and how much hyperbole is associated with him. When I see stuff like "Benoit's ring work is just as good now as it was in the 90's", it really rubs me the wrong way. When someone is so badly overrated in some circles, it becomes easy to dislike them. I don't dislike Benoit right now, but I certainly wouldn't say I like him. He's still a very good worker who's probably being held back by the promotion he's working for (as are others), but I don't really see anything from him that I would consider great. He's had a ton of good-very good matches in the WWE, but nothing I'd ever call excellent or even great.

 

If this was 10 years ago and he was being held back in a crummy promotion, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and call him great. It's clear that 10 years ago, he was great, his ring work in New Japan/WCW proved it. But now, who really knows? He's older and less healthy now, so it's not a given that he would be able to perform at that level, even if he was in a better enviroment. So I can't say he's great just based on his potential anymore, because it's not clear how far his potential would go at this point.

[goodhelmet]

I don't think it's fair that WWE gave Chris Benoit a "thank you" title run when Rick Rude never got one and he had more tools than Benoit. DiBiase and Hennig too.

There was never a time when any of those three guys should have been WWF champion. They didn't do Russo-style quick title reigns to swerve the fans back then.

I wouldn't argue with you over Rude and Hennig but as a character, and a wrestler, Dibiase could have held the belt and not one person would have questioned it.

[Guest DylanWaco]

I don't think it's fair that WWE gave Chris Benoit a "thank you" title run when Rick Rude never got one and he had more tools than Benoit. DiBiase and Hennig too.

There was never a time when any of those three guys should have been WWF champion. They didn't do Russo-style quick title reigns to swerve the fans back then.

I would agree on Rude and Hennig (Hennig actually didn't even draw well against Hogan, which was pretty much unheard of), but not on Dibase. There was clearly an oppurtunity to put the belt on him at WM IV or around then. I understand WHY it wasn't done, but I think it would have worked well and it probably would have happened under a different political situation.

[Resident Evil]

I don't think it's fair that WWE gave Chris Benoit a "thank you" title run when Rick Rude never got one and he had more tools than Benoit. DiBiase and Hennig too.

There was never a time when any of those three guys should have been WWF champion. They didn't do Russo-style quick title reigns to swerve the fans back then.

I wouldn't argue with you over Rude and Hennig but as a character, and a wrestler, Dibiase could have held the belt and not one person would have questioned it.

I say Rude and Henning* would've been just as good if not better choices for the belt than the Million Dollar Man. However in saying that I have no doubt that Dibiase would've been a great champ too. All 3 of them certainly could've had runs as champ.

 

*Especially if he became champion with his Perfect streak alive.

 

 

 

It's "too bad" there are a million Benoit comments here to comment on now. Perhaps for now I'll just comment on why I'm such an obsessed Benoit fan -- shameless plug -- as evidenced by my favourite WWF Benoit matches in this very forum!!

 

As a kid I had to work hard. Part of the reason why I gravitated towards watching wrestling is that I could see these guys were hard working superheros that fought (kayfabe or not) tooth and nail for their craft.

 

I'm a fan of the athletic side of wrestling. I'm a fan of passion and I'm a fan of someone taking themselves to the physical limit. With wrestling I get that plus all the extra benifits that it brings which say you wouldn't see in a marathon race. It's why I'm big on wrestlers such as Kobashi and Benoit. I get inspiration from the dedication that these wrestlers put their bodies through and without sounding too arrogant I believe I'm more capable of understanding that than others. Benoit shows that better than anyone. With every move, every kick, suplex Benoit does it brings me more and more into a bout. That lets me care because I see someone else caring so much.

 

I see charisma mentioned here and there throughout this thread. Benoit's got it and he's actually got lots of it. People get mixed up sometimes and think charisma is only the type of outgoing charisma the Rock or Will Smith for example exhibited. Charisma is the ability to draw someone to yourself and Benoit has that in aces. Through passion, physique, being a kick but take no prisoners attitude and now especially his grizzled veteranish look along with his selling Benoit is exuding charisma. This kind of charisma is especially necessary in wrestling where you're going to have fans who will always gravitate towards this simply due to the athletic part of wrestling. It is also fantastic to have when you're going up against the outgoing charisma type of wrestler for various reasons.

[Guest Luds]

Benoit isn't the total package...but why does everyone overlook his weaknesses all the time? By everyone I mean people like Wild Pegasus who seem to live for Benoit and Benoit alone. TSM, DVDVR, etc. Benoit is universally praised simply because of his ring work, yet other people can't be universally praised for an area that they accel at? It's fickle.

Well I agree that he is certainly the real deal in the ring but seems to be missing that extra ingredient, that spark that makes the crowd cheer for him like Hogan, Rock, and Michaels.

 

But certainly, wrestling fans like wrestling and can love great wrestlers. I'd rather see a Benoit match or a Benjamin match, or Flair, Hart, Angle, any day over guys who don't have the same ring skills but have a better character and mic skills like Rock, Austin, Foley and so on. Maybe it bothers fans that a fantastic wrestler like Benoit can't get to the top when guys like Austin did. I mean, Austin had a punch, a kick, said F-ck many times, 2 more punches and a poor looking stunner and became a main draw! How is that fair? Many loved his character and mic skills, but the guy certainly didn't get over by wrestling. So I certainly think that many fans would like to see an actual good wrestler get over for their wrestling skills to compensate with all the stinkers that got pushed on no skills and a character...

 

I could see Benoit become a major heel of pushed like trip was! Get him to destroy the competition and apply the crossface and a few germans on a chair for a few weeks, get him to tell the fans he hates their guts for not marking for him when he's clearly the best wrestler. Get him to constantly lay out faces cleanly and you got yourself a monster heel, just like Vader was in WCW.

[Guest ohtani's jacket]

I don't get why Benoit has to have "it" for people to like him. I'm not even that big a Benoit fan, but I loved the style he wrestled with Finlay. People ought to like what they like and worry less about what they dislike.

 

I don't like a lot of wrestlers who have "it", I dislike a lot of wrestlers who are great workers, and sometimes I think a wrestler has "it" when barely anyone else thinks so, but that's all part and parcel of being a fan.

 

Go with your gut, as DEAN would say.

 

In addition: Benoit doesn't have what it takes to be a maineventer. He should keep wrestling people like Finlay.

[Coffey]

My problem with Benoit isn't even really him, it's just how overrated and how much hyperbole is associated with him.

This is a good summary of how I kind of feel. Except, for me, it's just a part of it. I also find his character boring and this charisma that he has, apparently, doesn't shine on all...cause it missed me.

[Loss]

Honestly, if you have to work at liking Chris Benoit, wrestling may not be the best choice of hobbies.

[Coffey]

That's bullshit. Just 'cause I don't like Benoit doesn't mean I'm not a real wrestling fan. I shouldn't have to work at liking him...he should make me like him.

 

I guess I want more out of wrestlers than actual in-ring wrestling talent. I still watch Nikita Koloff and Michael Hayes, for example.

[Loss]

Yeah, well you're making it sound like in-ring talent is a detriment to liking a wrestler, which is absurd.

[Coffey]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I liked Rude, DiBiase and Hennig as previously mentioned and they could all go. It's just that in-ring (and outside of the ring) they were simply more entertaining. Benoit does very little in his matches that excite me. Especially when he's been doing the same by-the-books WWE style match for years now. Am I supposed to get excited when he goes for the Diving Headbutt because it might get a long two-count?

[Loss]

There's nothing wrong with discussing Benoit's flaws. I've done it. Everyone here has probably done it at some point. In this thread, you definitely have. Where I disagree is that his flaws aren't really as huge a problem as you're making them out to be, they're not terribly important, they're not something that makes him look ridiculous on a regular basis. Benoit is over. He's in the right spot on the card. He does what he's supposed to do in the role he's supposed to be in. I don't think he was as good a champ as he could have been, especially when compared to Eddy Guerrero at the same time, because midcarder Benoit and champ Benoit were basically the same person, whereas Eddy in that role was a different wrestler.

 

Comparing Benoit to Hogan and Rock, which you have done in this thread, is meaningless because no one in their right mind has ever compared him to those two in terms of charisma or star quality.

 

There's nothing wrong with liking Hennig, Rude and DiBiase more than Benoit. I'm not criticizing Benoit not being your favorite and his flaws bugging you as much as I am you writing him off entirely just because of those flaws.

 

Benoit is a wrestler who wrestles really well. That's his appeal. That's all there is to it.