And the WO Wrestler of the Year is.....

[Bix]

UFC fighters aren't working in cooperation with the promoter to make a profitable show, to get themselves and their opponents over, and to sell the public on a match.

 

That statement makes no sense at all. The fighters are doing their best to get people to pay to see them fight, because if they don't, no matter how good a fighter they are, they'll eventually stop getting paid.

Are there examples of this happening in the past?

UFC fighters have a clause in their contracts that allows for them to be fired if they lose a fight. It's more of a general out if they want to cut someone, and they used it to release Ivan Salavery after he lost a horribly boring fight to Nate Marquardt by decision.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

FWIW, I never liked the fact that Hogan was overlooked for the WOTY award.

 

Ortiz's fight against Forrest Griffin was a very, very good fight, and Ortiz is generally considered fringe top 10, mainly going off his past wins over Silva, Tanner, Matyushenko, and Belfort. Of course, "good worker" means someone is good at working the fans. One could say Tito during TUF3 was a tremendous worker as he was able to put himself in the best light possible and definitely improved his image, which was clearly a goal of his going into the season. Hell, the man made dinner for his team. He was a total 100% babyface. The question of whether or not that is the "real" Tito Oritz can be seen in two ways - it is, and he is not working; Or he isn't, and it's a pure work. You will hear arguments on both sides of the fence.

 

That there is even a question shows me Ortiz is a better worker than every wrestler out there, since no wrestler out there is able to make the fans question whether something is real or fake... since every fan knows its fake. But by the traditional view of working being done in a ring, and to not turn this into JDW going off on another silly movie-tangent, I'll just say "no", he's not a good worker.

 

I don't consider pro wrestling and MMA to be one-in-the-same, however, there are similarities in the appeal of both and that MMA can be considered a substitute product for pro wrestling. I can't think of a single MMA fan I know that wasn't a pro wrestling fan before (and that isn't now). I constantly compare the UFC to the WWE simply because the UFC does a lot of the things I look for and used to like in pro wrestling that I simply don't get any more with the current crop. So this, I think, is relevant in the case of putting the two together. However, there are so many inconsistencies and so much division over the subject, that I can't see how Dave can continually group the two together.

 

The editors of the UFC should get a lot of recognition, because while the fighters are not told what to say, they are led to a degree by the producers where they will be told to talk trash about their opponent and it will be edited to look like something the fighter is bringing up on his own.

[Phil Schneider]

All of the points HTW is making about UFC fighters could equally be applied to Boxers. So if Tito Ortiz is eligable for the award, why isn't Floyd Maywether?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

There are a lot of rules in various MMA promotions that are there to make the fights more entertaining. PRIDE's yellow card, ZST's open-guard rule, the UFC standing fighters up and financially rewarding fighters with "submission of the night" "KO of the night" and "fight of the night". Often, fighters will get paid MORE money in getting these awards than they do in their contract (I think the going rate is $15,000). This incentive/punitive-based system is a substitute for out-right working fights. Though it doesn't guarantee better fights, the general quality of fights has gone up with its inclusion.

[Guest HTQ]

I don't see the logic in comparing something that is real to something that isn't.

 

Because MMA and wrestling both promote matches with the intention of getting people to pay to see them. The mechanics of how they go about it might be different, ie: booking vs. match making, etc, but at the end of the day the only major difference is that one is real and the other is fake. Other than that, they have the same intent; getting people to pay to see a fight.

 

Is it really that hard of a concept for people to grasp?

 

I'm going to sit the rest of this debate out, because it's just not worth arguing over some things with certain people.

[Dylan Waco]

For years hockey was promoted almost entirely to a big segment of society based around fights and the guarantee of them occuring during games. Bob Probert became one of the most well known players of his generation because of this. If the standard is "promoted matches with the intention of people paying to see them", I have trouble seeing how hockey fights aren't pro wrestling. Should shit stirring Claude Lemioux have been heel of the year?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

The Dave Meltzer defense of real/fake would be that wrestling began as being real and evolved into being fake, and that throughout history there have been instances of shoots in fake wrestling, and works in real fighting.

 

The difference between MMA and Boxing in relating to pro wrestling is that MMA is vale tudo - you can do anything in it -punch, kick, knee, elbow, slam, submit, etc.. You can in theory have a fight in MMA and PW, have the same moves, style, fighters, etc. and show it to someone and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. That the peak of PW craft can look exactly the same as a real fight. Whereas you can't do that with boxing. Why Dave covers boxing is completely beyond me, ditto Roller Derby.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually Dave's main defense, in my discussions with him at least, has been that since the Japanese wrestling fans, culture, media, et. decided to equate MMA and Pro Wrestling, he has to respond to that reality.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Yeah, and Dave also said in the past he drew a line between PRIDE and UFC in regards to this - where he considers PRIDE to be PW but UFC a sport and decidedly not PW given the way it's treated in Japan and NA respectively. Clearly this is not the case any more, so I went to his other defense.

 

Obviously there are "other" reasons as to why Dave covers it that he won't admit, which is of course his right since it's a free country and he can cover whatever he wants to cover. He's a bit of a tool to justify it any other way, but that's part of his charm.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

That I even have to address this is just sad.

 

Obviously there is a % game when considering what is pro wrestling.

 

Movies, for example. A fight in a movie may be about 5 minutes long - it is choreographed, set up, "worked", whatever. It could be considered, on it's own, "pro wrestling". However , the movie itself may be 100 minutes long. Which means that fight took up 5% of the movie. Now would you consider something that takes up 5% of space to be the whole thing? No. A Hockey Fight is even worse, where fights would be about .0001% of everything involved in a season. You can say that a movie or a fight has pro wrestling elements, but when those elements take up such a low percentage, only the most moronic and myopic would call it as a whole "pro wrestling".

 

The Pro Wrestling elements in MMA, OTOH, take up a much greater percentage of the whole to where the two can be considered comparable. Not enough to be considered "the same thing" but certainly comparable.

[Dylan Waco]

I have no problem saying they are similar..they are..but when you reduce it to a question of violence being promoted to a paying auidence you are getting into murky water.

[Loss]

 

I don't see the logic in comparing something that is real to something that isn't.

 

Because MMA and wrestling both promote matches with the intention of getting people to pay to see them. The mechanics of how they go about it might be different, ie: booking vs. match making, etc, but at the end of the day the only major difference is that one is real and the other is fake. Other than that, they have the same intent; getting people to pay to see a fight.

Which is a promoting similarity. Comparing the performers to each other is not logical. That's been my argument all along.

 

My base premise would be the opposite, which is that the ONLY thing they have in common is the promotion of getting people to pay to see a fight.

[goodhelmet]

Just curious, why does Dave include the fighters/wrestlers in the same category but he decides to separate Worked Match and Shoot Match?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Especially since it's easier to compare a shoot with a work, than it is to compare shooters with workers.

[pantherwagner]

Actually Dave's main defense, in my discussions with him at least, has been that since the Japanese wrestling fans, culture, media, et. decided to equate MMA and Pro Wrestling, he has to respond to that reality.

 

I know Dave probably takes it to heart since he likely heard it from this guy whose name escapes me, but he's been one of his main Japanese sources for decades and is totally connected. You know... the one Zach used to stalk because he was jealous. I have yet to speak to a Japanese who equates MMA and pro wrestling. In fact, right now, you could go to Japan and it would be pretty absurd to think both things are the same. One is cool and hip, the other one is what your dad used to watch. But after so many years, Dave can't backtrack.

 

When somebody (you?) over at WrestlingClassics argued with him that in "popularity" polls run by newspapers, wrestling and MMA are ranked separatedly, and that UFC was MMA and wasn't promoted like pro wrestling (keep in mind this was said a few years ago), Dave said something like "you can say UFC and pro wrestling are not the same, but you can't deny PRIDE and pro wrestling are".

[jdw]

The Dave Meltzer defense of real/fake would be that wrestling began as being real and evolved into being fake, and that throughout history there have been instances of shoots in fake wrestling, and works in real fighting.

"Pro Wrestling" was, to the best of anyone's research, never "real". It didn't evolve from "real" to "fake". Pro wrestling as we know it and as far back as most anyone can research was always a con to work the marks out of money.

 

I'm sure that someone might be able to dig up some cro-magnum wrestling prior to Pro Wrestling that may or may not have been legit contest. It is no more relevant to Pro Wrestling History than cricket and rounders are to Professional Baseball, or the concept of putting Cricket players into Cooperstown.

 

On Phil's comment about boxing, we can go a step further - all forms of entertainment use things that are common in Pro Wrestling even more than MMA. That's why I made the point with a simple one - Worked Fighting in the Rocky movies. But it extends far beyond just the obvious movies.

 

 

John

[jdw]

Just curious, why does Dave include the fighters/wrestlers in the same category but he decides to separate Worked Match and Shoot Match?

 

Because Dave isn't always consistent, nor thinks things through fully.

 

Not trying to rip Dave with that. They're things I said even when we were closer.

 

 

John

[jdw]

I know Dave probably takes it to heart since he likely heard it from this guy whose name escapes me, but he's been one of his main Japanese sources for decades and is totally connected. You know... the one Zach used to stalk because he was jealous.

Fumi, Wally and Koichi have been primary sources for him for years. Koichi more on an informational of events, results and news. Fumi was at Weekly Pro... beats me if he's still there, or even still interested in current puroresu given the changes. Don't know what Wally is up to. Fumi and Wally were more good sources for insider stuff. Dave of course has/had sources at several of the promotion's offices, and also a slew among the workers of the promotions (more with the gaijin, but also at least one native that I recall).

 

I don't think Zach stalked any of those guys.

 

Are you thinking of the guy who would write long letters to the WON back when there was a letters page? Was the last name "Tanaka"? I seem to recall Zach didn't care for him. I also seem to recall that he was more oddly connected rather than totally connected into the puroresu world (and seemingly a bit more connected into the growing Pancrase and then MMA side of things). I don't think he want back decades as a source for Dave. In the two trips to Japan I went on, we stayed at Wally's. We met hooked up with Koichi at every show we went to that Koichi covered. And we hooked up with Fumi several times on each trip as well. I don't recall meeting the letter writer ever, nor even his name coming up. In contrast, we talked to Masa Horie at a few shows, even through he was "just" a big fan and longtime reader of the WON and Torch.

 

 

But after so many years, Dave can't backtrack.

I think there's a bit of that. I also think that Dave has said it for so long that it's the "true" state of things in his head. At a time it was a bit of a defense mechanism when the Scherer's of the world (and probably some withing the business) ripped him for taking up space with "that UFC shit". We've long ago moved past that, and even people like me who think there's MMA and there Pro Wrestling *aren't* suggesting that Dave stop reporting on MMA. But it's just the way Dave looks at the world, it's been that way for so long that it's not going to change.

 

If you want an anology, it's akin to Vince's desire to push people who weigh more than 250 pounds. It's how Vince see's wrestling/sports entertainment. Since Vince literally is pro wrestling, the WWF is booked to please him. So it's his call. Dave is the WON. "Wrestling" is going to be defined within the four corners of the WON on how Dave views it regardless of whether others think it doesn't make sense.

 

He's been doing it for close to 25 years. It's not terribly worth arguing about within the context of the WON since it isn't going to change. It's an argument that's more useful when one steps outside the WON, if there is any value or hope of getting people to see your point of view.

 

 

John

[kjh]

Chuck Liddell is an awful professional wrestler, he doesn't know how to bump or sell, he squashes some of his opponents refusing to give them any significant offense and injures his opponents in every match.

[Dylan Waco]

Yeah I seem to remember him making that distinction. Soon after that the argument devolved because Meltzer was basically arguing that anything that is called pro wrestling by a substantial number of people is in fact pro wrestling regardless of what exactly is going on.

[Bix]

Wasn't the crux of Dave's argument for a while that MMA fighters/matches were winning wrestling awards by a large margin or something?

[pantherwagner]

John - Tanaka, that's it. I thought he was one of Dave's long time sources, but I guess I was wrong. Then again I have no clue who is this Masa Horie you talk about, though I know who are Wally and Koichi. Anyway, I recall reading about Zach following him around online and laughing at him for the stupidest of things. That was Zach.

 

Anyway, going to Japan last year (not to watch any shows, honestly I thought it would be a waste of time) I found out that the distinction is pretty clear. As I said before - MMA and K-1 are cool, and wrestling is completely dead. It's funny because three different people told me "the only way wrestling has to survive in the long run is to turn stupid and bizarre like Hustle". In 10 years, professional wrestling in Japan may not exist outside of really old guys trying to hang on the only thing they can do in life, tiny local promotions like Osaka, or "joshi" jackoff material for the schoolgirl photobook audience.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/5904/jparchive.htm

 

Foley references Masa a lot in his first book.

[pantherwagner]

Oh, of course, now I actually know who that guy is.

[jdw]

John - Tanaka, that's it. I thought he was one of Dave's long time sources, but I guess I was wrong. Then again I have no clue who is this Masa Horie you talk about, though I know who are Wally and Koichi.

Rudo pointed out who Masa was. Simply a "really big wrestling fan in Japan". I found him to be a nice guy when meeting him in Japan. "Really Big Wrestling Fan" types in any country make one leary, given the Lano Factor. He never struck me as Lanoesque... but he was a Big Fan, known by the gaijin and to a degree it seemed like the natives even knew him. Not really a source.

 

I do seem to recall that either Zach or someone had issues with him.

 

The Fumi that I mentioned was an youngish (probably Dave's age range at the time) editor with Weely Pro while Wally's was at Weekly Gong. Fumi was young and flashy in a thriving scene, while Wally was more of the vet who'd been inside the business (with All Japan). Wally was more guarded, but I took his opinions mixed with information to be more useful/valuable than Fumi... who I tended to think mixed bullshit with what-you-wanted-to-hear with more bullshit that even Dave had to sift through a bit and come it from a different direction in a follow-up question to get at the real answer.

 

 

Anyway, I recall reading about Zach following him around online and laughing at him for the stupidest of things. That was Zach.

I haven't dealt with Zach much in the past few years, other than a brief discussion on the Zach Boards about Hase and Funaki in the WON HOF (where I thought Zach was looking at things a bit incorrectly).

 

 

Anyway, going to Japan last year (not to watch any shows, honestly I thought it would be a waste of time) I found out that the distinction is pretty clear. As I said before - MMA and K-1 are cool, and wrestling is completely dead. It's funny because three different people told me "the only way wrestling has to survive in the long run is to turn stupid and bizarre like Hustle". In 10 years, professional wrestling in Japan may not exist outside of really old guys trying to hang on the only thing they can do in life, tiny local promotions like Osaka, or "joshi" jackoff material for the schoolgirl photobook audience.

Puroresu was hit externally (MMA) at the same time it was hit internally with two massive issues that had been building for years - lack of front office people with a vision to see the issues puroresu faced, and the lack of the next generation of stars being developed. That someone like Inoki waded into puroresu's midst to work both ends (trying to position himself for the MMA Boom while also having no promotional clue on puroresu and destroying the current and future stars) to destroy the country's strong promotion didn't help.

 

One of somewhat sad ironies is that the bloom is off the MMA Boom. It remains popular at a level that blows aways MMA here - the rating for Ortiz vs. Shamrock was a fly on the ass of the ratings for New Years Eve this year, even though it was was "down". The biggest pure MMA promotion in the country looks like it's about to be sold in some degree, possibly even to UFC.

 

Some one gets the feeling that if puroresu had a bit more vision when it needed it, it would be "downsized" rather than on "life support". Considering the mass of promotions in the 90s, downsizing wouldn't have been a bad thing.

 

Of course the television make-up in Japan remains an issue. The absence of both the cable penetration that is seen in the US *and* the variety of channels (looking for content) makes it tough for even a visionary puroresu company to thrive.

 

I don't know if Hustle is the route to go. Perhaps the next generation of mainstream puroresu fans will need it to be feed to them in that degree. I would hope not, but who knows.

 

 

John