Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Loss]

Has nothing to do with Meltzer. You said Sherri could be called the best "worker" from 89-91 in WWF. Some of the greatest wrestlers ever were in the fed for that time. It's a ridiculous statement.

I must have missed all of those classic matches during 1989-1991 from Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Ted DiBiase, and Curt Hennig.

 

You could argue that the best match during that time period was Savage/Warrior at Wrestlemania VII, and Sherri had every bit as much to do with that match being great as Savage did.

 

But aside from that, let's look at each guy:

 

Bret Hart: Disappointing singles run in 1989, where the high point was probably a good TV match with DiBiase. 1990 he had the Summerslam tag against Demolition, but not much else. 1991 he had the match with Perfect at Summerslam but not much else.

 

Shawn Michaels: The Rockers/Brainbusters matches were thought highly of at the time, but according to those who have watched most of their house show matches, it appears they worked the same match most nights out. The Rockers/Orient Express match at the '91 Rumble was a personal favorite of mine, and is probably the best tag of the era for the company. But there are quite a few 3 and 6 month drought periods where you could ask what he was doing.

 

Ted DiBiase: Solid, but no real standout matches during this time period.

 

Curt Hennig: Always considered pretty great, but no real standout matches during this time aside from the Bret match at Summerslam.

 

Matches where Sherri played an integral part have been mentioned by others in this thread. Obviously, the Wrestlemania VII match is the biggest example, but pretty much every Savage match during this time period was a collaborative effort with him and Sherri. She was completely part of the act, and probably worked as hard at ringside as the wrestlers in the ring, and took nearly as many bumps as the wrestlers most of those nights.

 

1989-1991 was not a golden age for the WWF. So admittedly, the main reason there is somewhat of a case there for Sherri is precisely because it wasn't exactly a glory period.

 

"It's a ridiculous statement" is not a response to the point, it's dismissing it without even thinking about if it might be true.

 

Tell me, if Sherri was not the best worker the company had during this time period, who was? Also note that I never said she was hands down the best wrestler on the roster during these years, but I did say there's a case for her. There is also a case for Bret Hart and Savage himself I suppose, but I can't see a case for anyone aside from those three.

[Beast]

First, Heenan was active for most of that period and even had some matches in his big feuds with Warrior and Bossman. If you're going to say a non-wrestler is the best worker I'd go with him since he also was a better talker.

 

Anyway, you knock Hart, Michaels, Dibiase, and Hennig for not having "classic" matches for those years, but I personally love their stuff. The Rockers were in their prime and were always fun to watch, even if short almost-squashes like vs. the Twin Towers at Wrestlemania. Plus they and the Rougeaus had some really entertaining matches. Hart had some great matches with Neidhart vs. the Brainbusters and Demolition as well as a number of singles matches with Dibiase, Hennig, and others throughout the period. Hennig almost was entertaining even in short bursts like vs. Blue Blazer, plus his stuff against Von Erich, Piper, Michaels, Hart, and Santana. I personally loved Bossman, Rude, the Rougeaus, Santana, Savage, and Roberts during those years and not only for their matches, but also for their promos and angles. And don't knock the lack of classic matches when Sherri didn't wrestle.

 

The TV during that time was chock full of action packed angles and great interviews and if you're going to knock a lack of great matches, remember that WWF wasn't like NWA and focused more on characters than letting guys go out there and be great. 24/7 has shown that when the "workers" were allowed time, they usually came up with something pretty damn good.

 

Sherri was a great manager, but she wasn't top 10 worker-wise. It's not like Savage was nothing before she paired with him and if anything he had more entertaining matches when he was with Elizabeth. I don't know what qualifications you're using, but there are guys who did a lot more and were just as if not more entertaining during the same period.

 

I do think it was a golden age as entertainment went, match-quality be damned.

[Guest The 3H's]

Sherri basically offering to suck Warrior off on Brother Love>>>>>Elizabeth

[rzombie1988]

It's pretty hard to call Sherri the best worker when she had less than 5 matches during that time frame...

[Loss]

I consider Savage's matches her matches since she was at least as active as a second person in a tag team would be in all of those matches.

[Bix]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that specifically "Sherri was the best worker on the card" was a regular talking point in the WON back then.

[S.L.L.]

I do think it was a golden age as entertainment went, match-quality be damned.

"Worker" is a term pretty much directly associated with match quality, so...umm...yeah.

 

Bossman is actually a really good dark horse pick, though. I think it's not unfair to say there's a better case for him than for Sherri.

[Loss]

That's a fair point, I can see that.

[Matt D]

I've seen almost everything available online from 90/91 in the last year, and there are a lot of really good matches no one talks about, but I do often think that my standards were warped considerably due to primarily watching a whole lot of 90/91 WWF and little else for a year.

[S.L.L.]

This sounds like a job for Victator....

[Beast]

I do think it was a golden age as entertainment went, match-quality be damned.

"Worker" is a term pretty much directly associated with match quality, so...umm...yeah.

 

Bossman is actually a really good dark horse pick, though. I think it's not unfair to say there's a better case for him than for Sherri.

 

Ok, well that's why I was confused when Loss said she could be called the best WORKER in the fed especially since her main shit came outside of actual matches.

[S.L.L.]

Fair enough, but I'm guessing the basis of Loss' (and Meltzer's) claim is that she often got so involved in the matches where she worked as a second, she may as well have been a full-fledged wrestler/worker. It's bending the rules, I don't deny, but I can see where they're coming from.

[rovert]

Slick's work needs wide spread re-appraisal. lol

[Loss]

When someone starts jumping off the top rope, taking bumps from the apron to the floor, and performing wrestling moves, she crosses the line from manager to worker, even if she is not officially in the match. I consider anyone who works in front of a live crowd a worker (announcers, referees, managers), but I put Sherri in the same group with other wrestlers since she was professionally trained, and also was far more physically active than any other manager ever was.

 

Edited to add: I know Heenan was quite the active ringside manager too, but by this point, he was having neck problems and nearing the end of his run, so I'd put Sherri above him. I'd also add that I always thought Heenan was a funny guy, but I don't know that he was a great wrestling guy, in the sense that he did promos that helped sell Hogan/Andre at Wrestlemania III, or that Rick Rude would not have been a top heel without Heenan giving him the rub, or that he really helped wrestler (x) become a main event player when that person would have struggled without him, or anything like that. Heenan was a key guy on the announcing side, but I don't really know that he was all that good a manager, at least not in his WWF time. Everyone he managed (Andre, Rude, Haku, Studd, Bundy, Arn and Tully etc) I think would have reached the exact same level whether he was there or not.

 

That's not to say I think Savage couldn't have gotten over without Sherri. That's insane. But Sherri added greatly to Savage's act after his heel turn. I'm not sure I can point to anything Bobby Heenan added to Rick Rude's act, as an example.

[rovert]

Joking aside I with Loss here particularly if you are talking about Spring 1991.

[Matt D]

Slick's work needs wide spread re-appraisal. lol

The best thing about Slick is the stuff he shouts from outside the ring. I think Fuji was a lot more effective than he got credit for. He was Worst Manager of the Year for many years straight in WON.

 

I really ought to put together a list of 90-91 WWF matches I think people should see at some point.

[Beast]

When someone starts jumping off the top rope, taking bumps from the apron to the floor, and performing wrestling moves, she crosses the line from manager to worker, even if she is not officially in the match. I consider anyone who works in front of a live crowd a worker (announcers, referees, managers), but I put Sherri in the same group with other wrestlers since she was professionally trained, and also was far more physically active than any other manager ever was.

 

Edited to add: I know Heenan was quite the active ringside manager too, but by this point, he was having neck problems and nearing the end of his run, so I'd put Sherri above him. I'd also add that I always thought Heenan was a funny guy, but I don't know that he was a great wrestling guy, in the sense that he did promos that helped sell Hogan/Andre at Wrestlemania III, or that Rick Rude would not have been a top heel without Heenan giving him the rub, or that he really helped wrestler (x) become a main event player when that person would have struggled without him, or anything like that. Heenan was a key guy on the announcing side, but I don't really know that he was all that good a manager, at least not in his WWF time. Everyone he managed (Andre, Rude, Haku, Studd, Bundy, Arn and Tully etc) I think would have reached the exact same level whether he was there or not.

 

That's not to say I think Savage couldn't have gotten over without Sherri. That's insane. But Sherri added greatly to Savage's act after his heel turn. I'm not sure I can point to anything Bobby Heenan added to Rick Rude's act, as an example.

I'll disagree with you on Sherri as a worker, but whatever. Alot of the managers back then were an active part of their wrestler's matches (Heenan, Slick, Hart). If you want to consider her on the same level as the actual wrestlers back then, I can't stop you.

 

As for Heenan, I'm going to have to disagree with you on those points too. For those three years he was still in his prime as an overall wrestling personality. End of his prime, yeah, but still top notch stuff. His work on PTW with Monsoon still holds up today, possibly even better than it was back then. As a manager his promos were first rate. I'm not sure I'm reading you right, but if you're saying he didn't help sell Andre/Hogan well I don't know. The WWF booked it as a heel/face match, not a UW-Hogan type dream match and Heenan as well as Ventura and Piper were all focal points in helping the build, especially since Andre was at times unintelligible. Heenan pushed the story and gave fans who weren't sure about Andre's heeldom a point of reference to boo.

 

As for Rude, same thing. Rude was a great promo, but Heenan was part of everything he did. The Roberts feud, the UW stuff, Heenan's presence cemented him as a top heel. Hell, Heenan was carry the Bossman-Rude feud even before Rude left the WWF and just this week Vintage Collection showed a Heenan/Bossman match which was a great example of how well-rounded Heenan was. Brainbusters, I'd say you might be right since they didn't do much except wrestle and even JJ let Arn and Tully do there own promos in the Horsemen. Haku, Studd, Bundy, etc.. wouldn't have been the same without being part of the Heenan Family. No way Bundy would have main evented WM 2 without Heenan. Hell, Heenan's bump taking was the focal point of the match.

 

Everything Sherri did, he did better. Bumping, talking, managing. Seriously, if you're going to say Heenan's wrestlers would have been the same without him, I'd say the same about Savage and Sherri. Savage was already a major league star with major league ability. The year she was with him, he went from feuding with Hogan to doing mixed tags with Dusty and Sapphire. The Warrior feud was an exception and Savage's heel persona would have made that just as great without Sherri, RR 1991 promo aside. Sherri can't be at the top anyway, because she was the minor part of the Savage/Sherri grouping.

 

Fine if you want to put Sherri on a pedestal, but I can't fathom how she was better than Heenan much less the best part of the roster those years. She had a job which she did well, but others had more important duties which they performed just as good and better.

[Strummer]

Heenan did a fantastic job getting over Flair to the unaware WWF audience in late 91/92

 

I guess that has more to with his commentary but the two did some great promos together in that short time (Prime Time, Funeral Parlor)

[Loss]

Agreed that Heenan was key in getting Flair over.

 

That said, I think the Heenan association contributed to Flair being just another new guy over the long haul, because being paired with Heenan was just something every incoming heel who wasn't a steroid monster did at the time.

 

Flair could do interviews and I have trouble accepting that the WWF audience didn't know him, as aside from Hogan and maybe Savage, he was easily the biggest star in wrestling at the time.

 

But that's really more of a booking point than a wrestling point. Heenan definitely worked hard to help Ric get over in the WWF, and deserves credit for that. I think his greater contributions even in that came from his work at the broadcast booth during Flair's matches, far more than anything he might have done at ringside on a few house shows here and there.

 

Heenan was good in the WM 3 buildup, and you could classify him as effective. Because of the role Heenan played at the time as the top heel manager, he was the perfect manager to pair Andre with going into Wrestlemania, to get over the point. What Vince was on camera to the late 90s and early 00s is what Heenan was during this time period - if you wanted to get someone over as a heel, Heenan was just the guy you paired that wrestler with. So I concede that point. Hogan/Andre was always going to be the selling point for Wrestlemania III, whether Heenan did great promos hyping the match or not. So that was an unfair statement by me, and I concede that you're right on that.

 

Rude I see differently. I see Rick Rude as one of the greatest gimmicks in wrestling history -- awesome wrestling name, awesome ladies man gimmick, great promo, really good in the ring, star quality, great presence, great heat magnet, fitting entrance music. The WWF brought out the best in him, then he went to WCW and cemented himself as a top guy. Rude was destined to be a star. Being in the Heenan Family definitely didn't hurt him, but I'm not sure Heenan helped him fill a missing piece of the puzzle. Heenan did manage Rude during a time when he really put the pieces together and became a star. 1988 was the beginning of him putting the pieces together in a great feud with Jake Roberts, and 1989 is when his ring work caught up to his gimmick. But I think Rude was going to be successful whether Heenan was with him or not.

 

Haku, Studd, and Bundy. Studd was clueless and had limitations, whether he was with Heenan or not. His size guaranteed him a spot as a guy for Hogan to face on house shows. Bundy was an established name in wrestling before being aligned with Heenan. Heenan's bumping definitely was the highlight of that match and I give him credit for it. Haku was a guy that the WWF tried repackaging a few times, most times with Heenan still with him, but nothing really clicked. I'm not blaming Heenan for that at all, as much as I am saying that I would consider him a great manager if he was able to get Haku over as a top-level star.

 

Comparing career to career, I agree with you that Bobby Heenan was a better manager than Sensational Sherri. But during this three year period, I don't think he was. Savage dropped down the card during this time, yes, but the WWF was a babyface territory, and because of the nature of the Hogan formula, every heel had nowhere to go but down the card after feuding with him. Sherri definitely didn't contribute to Savage's slide down the card. If anything, she made matches against guys like Duggan and Dusty more entertaining than they would have been without her around.

 

Finally, I would like for you to acknowledge that "Sherri was the best worker during this time" is not something I pulled out of thin air, even if you don't agree with it. Others have acknowledged that she was praised at the time, so what I was saying was hardly an original thought, and it's not something that I'd even really call all that controversial. It was a dry period without any real hot feuds. Hogan/Savage was red hot in '89 before it ran its course, Hogan/Warrior is a remembered dream match, and Savage/Warrior was a big feud in the early part of '91. Those were probably the three biggest feuds during these years, and Sherri was a key part of two of them.

[KrisZ]

I always thought that they should've used Dillon as Flair's manager when he came in because you had the continuity there and Heenan could've gushed on commentary about how great Flair was without managing him or involving Perfect to make him feel like he was just a top heel in WWF not anything special.

[rzombie1988]

Slick's work needs wide spread re-appraisal. lol

The best thing about Slick is the stuff he shouts from outside the ring. I think Fuji was a lot more effective than he got credit for. He was Worst Manager of the Year for many years straight in WON.

 

I really ought to put together a list of 90-91 WWF matches I think people should see at some point.

 

Fuji was really good for the cane but thats about it. His promo's weren't really anything to speak of and in kayfabe terms he may have been the stupidest manager ever upon getting rid of Demolition. His in-ring was what it was and I think he did his job better than expected. I'd put him below Heenan, below Hart, below Sherri, below Elizabeth, maybe tied with Paul Bearer, a little above the Genius, above Slick(Not that it's saying much) above Coach and above Sapphire.

 

Also to respond to Loss, I don't feel that Rude's WWF career was his best stuff. I enjoyed his WCW and Memphis stuff alot more. I could never buy him as anyone serious in the WWF.

[Strummer]

Also to respond to Loss, I don't feel that Rude's WWF career was his best stuff. I enjoyed his WCW and Memphis stuff alot more. I could never buy him as anyone serious in the WWF.

Gorilla making fun of his height probably didn't help. Although that stopped around late 88 or so.

[Beast]

Agreed that Heenan was key in getting Flair over.

 

That said, I think the Heenan association contributed to Flair being just another new guy over the long haul, because being paired with Heenan was just something every incoming heel who wasn't a steroid monster did at the time.

 

Flair could do interviews and I have trouble accepting that the WWF audience didn't know him, as aside from Hogan and maybe Savage, he was easily the biggest star in wrestling at the time.

 

But that's really more of a booking point than a wrestling point. Heenan definitely worked hard to help Ric get over in the WWF, and deserves credit for that. I think his greater contributions even in that came from his work at the broadcast booth during Flair's matches, far more than anything he might have done at ringside on a few house shows here and there.

 

Heenan was good in the WM 3 buildup, and you could classify him as effective. Because of the role Heenan played at the time as the top heel manager, he was the perfect manager to pair Andre with going into Wrestlemania, to get over the point. What Vince was on camera to the late 90s and early 00s is what Heenan was during this time period - if you wanted to get someone over as a heel, Heenan was just the guy you paired that wrestler with. So I concede that point. Hogan/Andre was always going to be the selling point for Wrestlemania III, whether Heenan did great promos hyping the match or not. So that was an unfair statement by me, and I concede that you're right on that.

 

Rude I see differently. I see Rick Rude as one of the greatest gimmicks in wrestling history -- awesome wrestling name, awesome ladies man gimmick, great promo, really good in the ring, star quality, great presence, great heat magnet, fitting entrance music. The WWF brought out the best in him, then he went to WCW and cemented himself as a top guy. Rude was destined to be a star. Being in the Heenan Family definitely didn't hurt him, but I'm not sure Heenan helped him fill a missing piece of the puzzle. Heenan did manage Rude during a time when he really put the pieces together and became a star. 1988 was the beginning of him putting the pieces together in a great feud with Jake Roberts, and 1989 is when his ring work caught up to his gimmick. But I think Rude was going to be successful whether Heenan was with him or not.

 

Haku, Studd, and Bundy. Studd was clueless and had limitations, whether he was with Heenan or not. His size guaranteed him a spot as a guy for Hogan to face on house shows. Bundy was an established name in wrestling before being aligned with Heenan. Heenan's bumping definitely was the highlight of that match and I give him credit for it. Haku was a guy that the WWF tried repackaging a few times, most times with Heenan still with him, but nothing really clicked. I'm not blaming Heenan for that at all, as much as I am saying that I would consider him a great manager if he was able to get Haku over as a top-level star.

 

Comparing career to career, I agree with you that Bobby Heenan was a better manager than Sensational Sherri. But during this three year period, I don't think he was. Savage dropped down the card during this time, yes, but the WWF was a babyface territory, and because of the nature of the Hogan formula, every heel had nowhere to go but down the card after feuding with him. Sherri definitely didn't contribute to Savage's slide down the card. If anything, she made matches against guys like Duggan and Dusty more entertaining than they would have been without her around.

 

Finally, I would like for you to acknowledge that "Sherri was the best worker during this time" is not something I pulled out of thin air, even if you don't agree with it. Others have acknowledged that she was praised at the time, so what I was saying was hardly an original thought, and it's not something that I'd even really call all that controversial. It was a dry period without any real hot feuds. Hogan/Savage was red hot in '89 before it ran its course, Hogan/Warrior is a remembered dream match, and Savage/Warrior was a big feud in the early part of '91. Those were probably the three biggest feuds during these years, and Sherri was a key part of two of them.

She may have been praised at the time, rightfully so, but even if some said she was the best worker at the time I still find it ridiculous. I see it as apples and oranges. She was a manager and comparing her to wrestlers doesn't work for me. So if you and others think she was better than all that talent that's fine and I apologize for my immediate overreaction. My concession at this point would be that she probably was overall top 10 from 89-91 if you include everyone in the company and don't focus on in-ring, but I still wouldn't put her at the top and below Heenan in her own category.

[Dylan Waco]

I love Heenan. On a recent Segunda Caida radio show I defended Heenan as best working manager of all time. But for the time period in question I don't know that he was better than Sherri and I damn sure don't think he was the better bumper. Sherri's wild and reckless bumping during that period was pretty incredible and sticks out even years later as something that you would really remember about shows from that era. I really can't say the same for Heenan and Bobby is probably one of my ten favorite wrestling personalities ever.

 

The broader question about whether or not she was the top worker in the company at the time is interesting. On the one hand I don't think I would buy it and would probably rate Savage and Bret higher for sure. I also agree with Beast that it is apples and oranges though I'm not sure I can entirely articulate why I feel that way. Perhaps it is because everything these days is all about how many good matches wrestlers have and the art of managing is pretty much dead.

 

On the other hand Sherri was obviously a huge part of many matches, took more bumps than a lot of people on the roster and even got in more licks offensively than you would think . She had a broad range of tools that she would use in matches even though she wasn't an official participant. Every single aspect of in ring work we apply to wrestlers today could be applied to Sherri without any real stretch.

 

Even if you don't consider Sherri a "worker," I think you have to consider her one of the hardest working people on the roster from that point. And calling her the hardest working person doesn't really seem like a stretch.

[rzombie1988]

Bobby couldn't bump like that by 1990-1991. He had too many problems with his neck by then.