sek69 Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, C.S. said: This is why Enzo would have been an absolute fucking legend in another era. He was all about himself, got over as himself, and was more over then than 99% of the current roster is now. I laughed when the idiotic ROH fans bitched up a storm about that Enzo-Cass surprise appearance. It's still the most that slowly dying company has been talked about in two years. People will quote and @ me to tell me how wrong I am, but I'm not. How ya doin'?! Yeah but that appearance was after he was accused of sexual assault, which is a deal breaker no matter how over you get yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, sek69 said: Yeah but that appearance was after he was accused of sexual assault, which is a deal breaker no matter how over you get yourself. Fair enough. Did Enzo end up being innocent, or was the case just dropped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 hmm i wonder how many title shots big e got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 17 hours ago, KawadaSmile said: hmm i wonder how many title shots big e got Would you want him to lose ten straight though? Double-edged sword, Bubba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, C.S. said: Would you want him to lose ten straight though? Double-edged sword, Bubba. To me that is just another layer to the bullshit cake, bubba. Hear me out (or read, in this case): Dolph Ziggler got 10 (ten) title shots in that period of time, losing basically all of them; WWE is not really high on Dolph Ziggler - is cast as a loser and as a joke; WWE is high on The New Day - one of the greatest factions ever, with many classics under their belt; WWE is high on Big E, consequently; Big E never got a single title shot at the world title; Big E is more well liked by management than Ziggler but doesn't have the same opportunities; Plus there's the fact that Big E being cast solely as a tag wrestler takes him away from the spotlight, while Ziggler challenging for the belt that ofter basically shoves him into it. The absence of any title shots to someone like Big E speaks louder than if he were to lose the match. Contrast what needed to happen for Kofi to get a chance to shine to how many shots Ziggler gets DESPITE being seen as a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 So what are the chances Orton is getting the belt at Summerslam? I'm thinking 50/50 right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMJ Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 - As much as I've been critical of McIntyre's push since January and still believe, even if Covid-19 never happened, he was not "the answer" to the WWE's woes, I think the wise move is to keep the title on him. My feeling is Drew was, for most of 2019 and into January of this year, a loser, didn't have any truly great matches, and if the audience was behind him, it was mostly by default (meaning, they literally had no one else to cheer by that point). That being said, they gave him the biggest "moment" they could possibly have given him at WrestleMania (in one of my least favorite matches of the year) and, even though I think he should've trounced Ziggler in under 3 minutes at Extreme Rules, at least he hasn't done any jobs. I don't think Orton is going to propel the ratings back up - especially considering the number he and Big Show did a couple weeks ago. I don't think the WWE benefits by creating another Jinder Mahal/Sheamus/Kevin Owens-level Champion - a guy who is treated like a big deal for maybe 3 months but then shuffles back down the card so the "real main eventers" can be on top. In 2016/2017, you could argue that it made sense because you still had Cena, Lesnar, Goldberg, Reigns, and even Triple H still around and competing semi-regularly for World Championships. In 2020, though...? And as for Drew, well, again, this is not a guy who was mega-over and can afford to get beaten. His saving grace is that the pandemic means we don't officially know his ceiling. But if he goes down at SummerSlam, it will put the ceiling on him before he's ever even put in front of a live crowd. - I'm not sure I understand the Ziggler/Big E debate above. I don't get how bringing up how overexposed and weak Ziggler is makes the argument for Big E stronger. I guess where I see things differently is your 2nd point ("The WWE doesn't think highly of Dolph Ziggler"). I think they do think highly of him - very highly. He's in the top 10 in base salary. He's been around forever and every time he threatens to leave, they pay him even more to stay on. I think they view him as a Jack-of-all-Trades who can work any spot on the card, make someone else look terrific, and fill time (which, when you film 5 hours of TV a week, is necessary). They don't value him as a main event guy, but they clearly see him as a valuable utility player who they can plug-in anywhere. If he's good or bad at that is just one's opinion. I wholeheartedly agree that they have underestimated Big E for years now. But I don't necessarily see Ziggler as taking Big E's opportunities away from him. I think Vince has pigeonholed the New Day and rather than seeing how big it could truly be, he has been too happy with the money it already generates in its specific role. The New Day brings in a ton of money in merch as a midcard (mostly comedy) act and Vince would rather have that than run the risk of losing it by giving Big E the green light in singles (and by putting him in a more serious role). I do agree that there is a not-so-minor race issue at play too, if that is the point you're trying to make between Ziggler's opportunities vs. Big E's lack of opportunities. I just think it all comes back down to Vince and complaining about Ziggler is a conflation of two very separate issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 It's not really complaining about Ziggler per se, or even complaining solely about Big E's push (or lack of). It's just using both of them to illustrate an example of the racial issue at hand. I think Ziggler fucking sucks, but him getting continuous opportunities is the symptom, not the disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 I'll focus on this part of what you said, Bubba: 2 hours ago, KawadaSmile said: WWE is high on The New Day - one of the greatest factions ever, with many classics under their belt; WWE is high on Big E, consequently; Big E never got a single title shot at the world title; Big E is more well liked by management than Ziggler but doesn't have the same opportunities; WWE is high on New Day as a whole, yes, but I've never gotten the sense that they're high on each member individually. Kofi, yes, of course they're high on him - and even then, only to a point (6-second squash to Lesnar, anyone?). Big E, I'm not so sure. Xavier, even less sure. Even at the height of New Day, Kofi was consistently the only one on the big trucks and other promotional material and the only one with a consistent (albeit midcard) push. In contrast: Big E came as a bodyguard and third wheel for - guess who - Ziggler. So, to say that WWE is automatically higher on Big E than Ziggler is a stretch. After that inevitably ran its course, WWE spun its wheels with Big E until New Day, where he's been consistently pushed as a midcard/tag team act, with not even a hint of a main event spot. Xavier was squashed and kaboshed on the Network's first live NXT show and did little of note when he was finally called up to the main roster, before breaking out with New Day and achieving a similar push to Big E. At best, I could see E maybe getting a three-month Mark Henry run on top down the road. I am not nearly as optimistic about Xavier's chances, even though he's solid in the ring, good on the mic, charismatic as can be, and smart as hell. In a just world, all three would be former World Champions by the time they're inducted into the HOF, but I'm not sure that will ever happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 The Big E non-singles push is even weirder to me because he has the size, look, charisma and promo ability. All too often, WWE has been reluctant to pull the trigger on someone because they are lacking in one trait - ignoring the golden booking rule about accentuating strengths and hiding weaknesses - but Big E literally checks all the boxes. He has also always been more over than his push, which to me is the biggest indicator of someone's potential. New Day is undoubtedly one of the best WWE tag teams of all time, but for most of their prime run, they were pushed just a shade behind the Usos. Despite that, however, I would argue that they were -and remain- more over than the Usos and were a bigger draw by whatever limited metrics we have. But hey, pushing Dolph Ziggler for the umpteenth time led to a record low 3rd hour which was not that far off from Dynamite's debut episode in terms of viewership, something completely unfathomable just 3 years ago, so everything is just fine, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 In all of this we're ignoring the weirdest part: that Kofi is somehow out for 6 weeks or more from being put through two tables. That happens all the time and people are back the next show with no scratches. As far as Big E goes, there's no reason WWE doesn't go all in on a big singles push other than the obvious one. Dude is a walking money printing machine, yet WWE has been fine leaving him as a tag guy which wouldn't be as bad if WWE didn't give zero F's about tag teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 I think they're in a tough spot with McIntyre. The low ratings aren't his fault. But if every other world champion had to take blame for them, then so does he. It doesn't help that for me, he's not interesting despite being fundamentally sound as a promo. As long as he's wrestling, I'm good with him. Pre-match is what I find boring. They turned him face without a major shift in character or surroundings. He's still the same guy who told Roman Reigns he'll finish what leukemia started, best I can tell. He's just making wisecracks we're supposed to find charming, but seem condescending more than anything else. Putting the belt on Orton won't really help. But I think they want to give Drew a 'moment' where he wins the title in front of a live crowd. His biggest career accomplishment came with no fans and no fanfare. Keith Lee got a confetti drop a couple of weeks ago. WWE didn't even spring for that on McIntyre at WM. Part of me thinks it's about fulfilling the Chosen One destiny from all those years ago. Vince wanted to be right. They made Drew WWE champ, mission accomplished. If they get anything beyond that, it's a bonus. Thing is, as soon as crowds return and Vince can make it happen, Lesnar's coming back to RAW. So McIntyre is probably on borrowed time, no matter what. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to run Lesnar-McIntyre back at WM 37. Short of Lesnar or Reigns coming back and possibly helping, ratings are going to be rough going for RAW. The first two hours got their now-standard numbers. But Hour 3, ouch! But between another screwy finish for Asuka-Sasha and McIntyre-Ziggler happening again for no reason, what we see is what we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 The Asuka-Sasha thing straddled the end of hour 2 and beginning of hour 3. The quarters when they come out will make things clearer, but I would absolutely not be surprised if that bullshit ending pissed off a lot of viewers who just tuned out and didn't return. It's a pity because Asuka and Sasha have been having excellent matches which inevitably get terrible finishes due to shitty booking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 "These two spending more time on the mat than Van Gogh" Fuck Mauro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 Lol at Finn Balor being protected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 2 hours ago, KawadaSmile said: "These two spending more time on the mat than Van Gogh" Fuck Mauro Great line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 Showing the Pat McAfee-Adam Cole thing on NXT TV made Cole look even more like a geek. Not to mention being physically dwarfed by a guy who's position is normally the smallest guy on an NFL team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 Blonde Rhea Ripley is one lip snarl away from being full Billy Idol at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 Balor was so much better as a heel as the OG head of Bullet Club where he had Bad Luck Fale as his Diesel. Him trying to come off as a heel by his lonesome just doesn't click the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 With Timothy Thatcher not qualifying for the North American title Ladder match, here goes my interest for this one. ZERO interest whatsoever about who wins it going forward since in my book, Thatcher was the best guy they could've put the title on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 It's not just that he isn't qualified. He was put to sleep by Dexter Lumis. I know that they're trying to push Lumis as this weird, unique character and I like him quite a bit, but Finn Balor is not doing anything at the moment. There was no need to have Thatcher be the one to take the fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 I have been a Thatcher fan for years and I never thought he would become the tremendous personality that he has on WWE TV. Kudos to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 Seth has one quarter of a point. It's completely undermined by the fact that one tried to play it as intentionally goofy, and the other intentionally straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 What if I told you that both were shit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 AEW has never done the Lake of Reincarnation thing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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