GWE & Lucha

[elliott]

In the 2016 project, a lot of rhetoric surrounding Lucha was how difficult it was to get into. This time there's been very little discussion at all. 

Who are your top lucha candidates? Are they contenders for #1, the top 10? Who are  you considering for the overall top 100? Has anyone burst on the scene since the last project that you're considering? 

Lets get some Lucha Love going. 

[Reel]

I'm not a lucha guy, but I find the whole "I can't get into it" to just be a sort of laziness and an excuse to handwave a ton of stuff. Like, just watch the matches, they are usually pretty basic; like at one point the rudo will take things too far and the technico will try and get them back. It's pretty basic pro wrestling. 

Santo is for sure a #1 contender for me, he's not a favorite for that spot, but he's in consideration. Guys not in that tier, but I expect to have high, like top half, on my ballot: Perro Aguayo Sr., Fuerza Guerrera, El Dandy, Blue Panther, Negro Casas, and Atlantis. Super Porky and Virus are close to locks for me too. Probably gonna vote for Black Terry and Solar too, LA Park is in that same bucket, same with Sangre Chicana. Might vote for Pirata Morgan, gotta watch more Villanos to figure out where those guys fall, but I can see myself voting for III or V. I've watched some of the Lola Gonzalez and Pantera Suerena stuff, which is good, and I'd like to watch more, but I don't know if there's enough out there for a GWE vote, but I'll plead ignorance on that point. 

As for current guys, Hechicero and La Sombra have a good shot at making it for me. I won't totally rule out Ultimo Guerrero, Volador Jr or Barbaro Cavernario, but they aren't really on top of mind when it comes to the 100 greatest wrestlers. I talked about these guys a little in the Not Yet thread, but guys who have an outside shot if things break in the right way for them by 2026: Arez, Aramis, Demonio Infernal, Villano III Jr, Templario and Soberano Jr. I think the same goes for Vikingo and Taurus.

[joeg]

Hijo Del Santo, Negro Casas, LA Park, Eddie Guerrero and Atlantis will all be top 20 for me. Rey Jr, Blue Panther, Sangre Chicana and Mil Mascaras will all be in the top half of my list. Dandy, Perro, Fuerza Geuerrera, Villano III, Negro Navarro, Black Terry, and Rush will be on the bottom half of my list. Art Barr, Mistico, Pirata Morgan, Villano V, Blue Demon Jr, Trauma I and Dr. Wagner Jr. will all be bubble guys for me. As for guys I didn't consider in 2016, I could see Barbaro Cavernario, Bandido, Villano III Jr., Pentagon Jr., Dragon Lee, Templario, Psycho Clown, and few others doing enough over the next 5 years to make it into my list.   

[ZubazKid]

I've been watching the 80s Lucha set in rotation with the 80s AJPW & NJPW sets & I think Lucha is definitely harder to get into & get a feel for. I hadn't watched any lucha or puro to speak of before these sets. I found Lucha matches to be structured differently making it harder for me to determine Faces from heels (or rudos from technichos I guess) & even to tell which wrestler was which. I seem to be able to understand the gist of Japanese commentary better than Spanish despite taking Spanish in HS & college (that was a minute ago & I was never very good at it.) The appearance of so many gaijin undoubtedly made puro a lot more familiar & easier to comprehend as well. The production values in Japan also made it easier to see what's going on  & that was a challenge with some of the Lucha footage.

Now that's not to say any of this is bad. Indeed I've been pleasantly surprised by the blood soaked brawls & mask pulling in some of the best Lucha. I'd been expecting more "Nitro Cruiserweight" style, which I enjoy, but I appreciate the variety between the brawls & a good trios match with some flying. The 2/3 falls format & heavy use of submissions that don't allow you to tell when they are submitting took some getting used to.

Overall, Lucha isn't my favorite style but I'm trying to learn. Sangre Chicana & El Hijo del Santo stand out  but I expect more to come from El Satanico, El Dandy & others. 

[Tim Cooke]

The 80's DVDVR Lucha set is great but I wouldn't recommend it as a starting point.  I think the matches that are the easiest to appreciate from a higher worldview are the 8/31/86 Santo/Espanto Mask vs Mask match, 7/18/87 Santo/Casas Mask vs Hair match, 4/10/88 Santo/Espanto title match, and MS1 vs Chicana 9/23/83 (which you need to almost view through a lens of 1970's US in terms of using fewer moves but getting everything out of them.

For the 90's, the easiest entry is 1990 CMLL trios matches.  The best 1990 trios matches are better than almost all of the trios matches on the 80's set.  Then you get to Dandy/Casas from 7/5/92, Panther/Atlantis 8/11/91.

AAA is all over the place in the 90's (and really throughout it's entire history) but there are some excellent trios and atomicos matches from 1993-1995.  Rey vs. Psicosis from 9/22/95 is also a good gateway into a lucha title match but with elements of Japan thrown in.

[ohtani's jacket]

The past couple of years, I've mainly watched lucha from '00-02. I now have a newfound respect for workers like Shocker, Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero and Tarzan Boy whom I was dismissive of in the past. I didn't like the fact that they pushed the style away from the classic lucha I liked from the 80s and 90s toward a more modern style. Now that the early 00s footage is reasonably classic itself, I've come to terms with the fact that the style changed, and I can finally appreciate how good these guys were as workers. 

[Matt D]

6 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

The past couple of years, I've mainly watched lucha from '00-02. I now have a newfound respect for workers like Shocker, Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero and Tarzan Boy whom I was dismissive of in the past. I didn't like the fact that they pushed the style away from the classic lucha I liked from the 80s and 90s toward a more modern style. Now that the early 00s footage is reasonably classic itself, I've come to terms with the fact that the style changed, and I can finally appreciate how good these guys were as workers. 

I've really enjoyed reading you going through this stuff and can't wait until you get to rudo Atlantis in the Mistico era and the Bucanero turn and all of those trios or Hector Garza being amazing in 2010 or Old Man Casas and the Ingobernables feud sometime ten years from now.

[elliott]

13 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

The past couple of years, I've mainly watched lucha from '00-02. I now have a newfound respect for workers like Shocker, Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero and Tarzan Boy whom I was dismissive of in the past. I didn't like the fact that they pushed the style away from the classic lucha I liked from the 80s and 90s toward a more modern style. Now that the early 00s footage is reasonably classic itself, I've come to terms with the fact that the style changed, and I can finally appreciate how good these guys were as workers. 

I just loved this stuff at the time. Looking forward to revising it all eventually. 

[elliott]

On 10/6/2021 at 7:48 AM, Tim Cooke said:

 

AAA is all over the place in the 90's (and really throughout it's entire history) but there are some excellent trios and atomicos matches from 1993-1995.  Rey vs. Psicosis from 9/22/95 is also a good gateway into a lucha title match but with elements of Japan thrown in.

I've been really enjoying the AAA stuff I've been revisiting lately for my Fuerza project. I feel like people kinda turned on 93-95 AAA at some point and while I know Im just sampling matches with a lot of their best performers, a lot of these matches are holding up really well for me. Good mixes of storytelling, work and a host of awesome wrestlers. All the usual greats like Fuerza, Santo, Panther, are continuing to look awesome. REally excited for Rey, Psicosis & Juve to start showing up more regularly.