WWF House Show broadcasts

[PeteF3]

10 hours ago, JerryvonKramer said:

I noticed something a little odd: Prime-Time didn't feature a single match from Philly until 1987, then it features a lot, but by 1988 it's down to six matches for the whole year and in 1989 zero again.

 

I have a theory that Vince didn't want Dick Graham on his main cable TV, but anyone know why Prime-Time tended to be the other big shows but never Philly?

I know has Bix has speculated that the infamous Philly fan behavior may have been a reason. This wasn't a "Bischoff takes it up the ass / Doo-dah, doo-dah" full-on ECW crowd but it was always in the Philly DNA. Why they made an exception in 1987, I don't know.

(Note that crass, drunken, boo-your-own-team-and-throw-batteries-at-the-other behavior from Philadelphia fans is a reputation the city has had going all the way back to the 1910's, for all of its major sports teams.)

[MoS]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:49 AM, ethantyler said:

Hogan was booked so strong and getting anyone to be considered a credible opponent for him was borderline impossible for a while there. 

I was going to say Bruno should have had the same problems in his return matches, but did not, but Bruno said in an interview that he sometimes was bothered that only his payoff matches made tape, not the first matches of his feuds where he would go a long time, sometimes 60 minutes, with his opponents. If you are going 60 mins with opponents in your first match with them, you probably got plenty of heat on yourself and your opponent must have looked legit as fuck

[The Thread Killer]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:19 PM, ethantyler said:

Hogan was booked so strong and getting anyone to be considered a credible opponent for him was borderline impossible for a while there. 

You ain’t kidding brother. I went to those house shows every three weeks, and everybody knew damn well that not only was there no chance of Hogan losing at a house show, quite honestly there was no chance of him losing at all.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is a placeholder but there are a few other nerdy bits of data I want to compile.

 

First, a wholistic understanding of commentary duties in this stretch down to Jack Reynolds and Ken Rensick and even Pete Doherty level.

Second, an in-depth look at the job squad. For example, I recall Doherty once got a win over Lanny Poffo in Boston. Poffo himself would sometimes pick up house show wins. Guys like Terry Gibbs or George South would never win. I want to work out the actual hierarchy. I always find it interesting just how much TV time those guys got, especially those 15-20 minute house show matches which aired on Prime Time. I learned that Gorilla Monsoon would INSIST on watching the entirety of every match for Prime Time tapings; so Monsoon and Heenan were sitting through these entire cards — and for Monsoon it would have been a second go round most of the time since he did most of the commentary on the house shows. He must have really loved 20-minute jobber vs jobber matches, it’s some dedication!

[The Thread Killer]

1 minute ago, JerryvonKramer said:

This is a placeholder but there are a few other nerdy bits of data I want to compile.

 

First, a wholistic understanding of commentary duties in this stretch down to Jack Reynolds and Ken Rensick and even Pete Doherty level.

Second, an in-depth look at the job squad. For example, I recall Doherty once got a win over Lanny Poffo in Boston. Poffo himself would sometimes pick up house show wins. Guys like Terry Gibbs or George South would never win. I want to work out the actual hierarchy. I always find it interesting just how much TV time those guys got, especially those 15-20 minute house show matches which aired on Prime Time. I learned that Gorilla Monsoon would INSIST on watching the entirety of every match for Prime Time tapings; so Monsoon and Heenan were sitting through these entire cards — and for Monsoon it would have been a second go round most of the time since he did most of the commentary on the house shows. He must have really loved 20-minute jobber vs jobber matches, it’s some dedication!

There was a Tiger Chung Lee vs. Jose Luis Rivera match which went to a time limit draw, which I still have nightmares about to this day. That match made me question not only my desire to remain a wrestling fan, but my desire to continue living.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here are the first two matches of every MSG card from 1984 to the end of 1989. I have also included what I will call the "cooler" match on every card. A cooler match was typically inserted after a hot match or angle to bring the crowd down. In some cases, there was no such match and I've simply gone for the weakest match on the remaining card. Bold denotes a star, but we are interested in the jobbers who are not bolded. There are some marginal cases here who I have included as jobbers, such as Paul Roma as a singles when he was part of The Young Stallions, Boris Zhukov in singles, and very late end-of-career Chief Jay Strongbow.

 

 

Some notes:

 

1. Just before this period a ton of Vince Sr mainstays retired including Baron Mikel Scicluna, Dominic Denucci, Victor Rivera, and Frank Williams (who did a few last TV shows in 84-5). Pete Doherty also just does Boston shows after 84. Johnny Rodz, Swede Hanson and the Vachons are all finishing up in 84. It seems Vince, for whatever reason, also stopped using long-time jobbers like Israel Mata and Tony Colon in 84. Long-time Bob Bradley only did TV tapings and rarely house shows right through the 80s into the 90s but very seldom did MSG (just 3 times). There core job squad is thus:

 

Jose Luis Rivera (after the departure of Rodz, he must be seen as the "head jobber")

Jose Estrada

SD Jones

Iron Mike Sharpe

Rene Goulet

Lanny Poffo

Steve Lombardi

Tony Garea

Sal Bellomo

 

2. There is a clear delineation between the PURE jobber, as in a Frank Williams or Bob Bradley or Terry Gibbs or Charlie Fulton and the "competitive jobber". All of the guys listed above were "competitive jobbers" and yet clearly a rung below a JTTS like Koko B. Ware. The guys listed above AUTO defeat pure jobbers whether at house shows or on TV. 

 

3. Whenever any of these guys win a match against another competitive jobber it is treated on the commentary as a "major upset". This was the case in 1983 when, for example, Sal Bellomo defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna who was on his way out. It was the case when Pete Doherty defeated both Lanny Poffo and SD Jones in Boston in 1987 and 88. 

With all that said we can basically rank them, in ascending order of hierarchy:

Rene Goulet - basically never wins, he even has an MSG job loss to Barry O in 1985 (ouch). He has losses to Scott McGee also. Time limit draw with Rick McGraw. He is only not a "pure" jobber because he wore a cape and had some vague name recognition. Extremely low down the card, more than you would think.

 

Jose Luis Rivera - has a loss to Goulet on his record and one to Charlie Fulton (brutal!) at the Cap Center and one to Barry Horowitz (oof), but Rivera would also pick up more very occasional wins than Goulet and the Los Conquistador deal was a very slight push. For whatever reason, Rivera's matches always seem to go a bit longer.

 

Jose Estrada - Estrada is only very marginally above Rivera for the sole reason that he got a win over Siva Afi in June, 1987 at Boston Gardens. That Afi push really died a death didn't it. 

 

Steve Lombardi - from 83 to 87 he is basically a pure jobber, even losing to Ron Shaw and Rene Goulet, with just a single televised win in that entire period against Jack Armstong at the June 85 Boston show. His next televised win would not come until the March 88 Boston show against SD Jones. However, his very slight push during the Brooklyn Brawler run on balance puts him above Goulet, Rivera and Estrada.

 

Sal Bellomo - it may seem strange now, but Bellomo was being properly pushed by Vince Sr in 1982-3 period to be the next big thing, and he was basically undefeated for his first year and hyped up, clearly groomed as an ethnic babyface for the Italians in the crowd. When Vince took over, he clearly didn't see it and as soon as he takes over Bellomo starts getting massively jobbed out -- including a loss to a debuting Bobby Heenan. However, in 84, Bellomo would still beat a guy like Moondog Rex and was relatively treated still as a name. His last televised win was in July 85 against Ron Shaw at the Cap Centre and after that he's pretty much a pure jobber.

Tony Garea - he slipped into the Chief Jay Strongbow role of the former star now jobbing out as he winds down his career, but would still trade wins with Iron Mike Sharpe in 1984 but has very few wins after that.

 

SD Jones - you might imagine at some point in the 1970s that Jones was once a big star but he never was really. He was always a JTTS as far as I can see. His only significant win in the 70s was over Nikolai Volkoff in 1978, at the February Philly show -- Volkoff was a title challenger in 78 so not to be sniffed at, but in the 70s he was still jobbing to stars while defeating jobbers on TV for the most part. In 83 he went over the likes of Baron Scicluna, Swede Hanson, Butcher Vachon and both Estrada and Rivera. By 84 though, he's only beating Rene Goulet. He has very occasional wins after that also. The reason Jones is relatively high up on the jobber ladder is that he was always presented as being competitive in a way that some of the others were not. 

 

Iron Mike Sharpe - in 83 Sharpe comes in with a decent push and is booked as a star heel. As with Bellomo, when Vince takes over Sharpe starts getting jobbed out but still wins against Goulet, Lombardi, Jones and others. By 85's slipped further and now trades wins with Jones and has time limit draws with Poffo. Still in 87 he was a win over Sivi Afi. However, by 88-9 he's losing to Sam Houston and Tim Horner and is a more pure jobber after that.

 

Lanny Poffo - even without his run as The Genius, it is clear that Poffo is at the very top of the jobber hierarchy and represents the dividing line between JTTS and jobber. He won relatively frequently on house shows even beating Tiger Chung Lee. He seems to beat most of the others here in match-ups apart from draws with Sharpe in 85. He does have an embarrassing loss to Barry Horowitz to his name in 87, but wins a return bout. 

 

So there it is, the jobber hierarchy!
 

[JerryvonKramer]

I've been tracking down some of the jobber vs jobber bouts at MSG and was interested to see Iron Mike Sharpe vs. SD Jones from October 19th 1990, an ATROCIOUS 10-minute match with an audible BORING chant. This match would have been bad in 1983, so to see it in the 1990 setting is something. Last SD Jones appearance at MSG and for WWF period, Sharpe would be relegated to pure TV squashes after that and never appeared at the Garden or major house show again.

 

What interested me is that the original broadcast had Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby Heenan on it, with the commentary dominated by Heenan complaining about Mr Perfect being screwed out of the IC title in the prior bout against Texas Tornado (double CO). However, it was broadcast later on the November 12th 1990 edition of Prime Time and the original commentary has been dubbed over by Sean Mooney and Lord Alfred Hayes, with the two of them generally hyping Survivor Series.

 

Can anyone recall how common this dubbing over of original commentary for Prime Time was? Was this match an exception or by 1990 did they always do it?

 

 

[TheDuke]

I dont know about Primetime specifically, but here in Canada around that 90-91 time frame we got both the Canadian shows Maple Leaf and Calvacade and some of the US tv like Superstars. The Canadian shows usually showed the same matches as the USA tv but I think there was some changes. Kelly might know better than me but I think I may remember sometimes seeing the same match as on Superstars but with a different commentary team on Canadian TV.

[Ricky Jackson]

Maple Leaf Wrestling (the TV show) was Superstars, just with Canadian house show promos hosted by Billy Red Lyons. There may have been some different commentary, but I only remember the Vince-Jesse (pre-88 with Bruno) team

[JerryvonKramer]

Doing a bit of research for the commentator stuff, and stumbled on this. Howard Finkel on color!!! This was a Meadowlands show, Capetta the ring announcer, and Finkel with Gorilla. Finkel isn't bad either. 

 

 

[Cobra Commander]

Howard Finkel did a pretty good Howard Cosell impersonation on this video of Mean Gene interview outtakes. So he probably would have been a better commentator than quite a few people used by the WWF, but obviously he already had a stable job.

[NintendoLogic]

According to Finkel's Observer bio, he was the best play-by-play man the WWF had in the mid-80s. When Larry Matysik praised his work in that regard, he told him that guys like him weren't what the company was looking for no matter how good they were.

[CurtainJerker]

Here are the Hogan and Piper matchups from all markets:

1    WWF @ Boston 6. Oktober 1984 @ Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts (United States of America)
Roddy Piper defeated Hulk Hogan (c) by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match]

2    WWF @ San Diego 19. Oktober 1984 @ San Diego, California (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 

3    WWF @ Buffalo 30. Oktober 1984 @ Buffalo Memorial Auditorium in Buffalo, New York (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 7,500

4    WWF @ Boston 3. November 1984 @ Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match]

5    WWF @ Salt Lake City 10. November 1984 @ Special Events Center in Salt Lake City, Utah (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 6,700

6    WWF @ Phoenix 11. November 1984 @ Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix, Arizona (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 

7    WWF The War To Settle The Score 18. Februar 1985 @ Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 26,092

8    WWF WrestleMania I 31. März 1985 @ Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Mr. T defeated Roddy Piper and Paul Orndorff 22,000

9    WWF @ Los Angeles 13. April 1985 @ Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena in Los Angeles, California (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 12,000

10    WWF @ Oakland 14. April 1985 @ Coliseum Public Market in Oakland, California (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 12,000

11    WWF @ Baltimore 4. Mai 1985 @ Civic Center in Baltimore, Maryland (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Jimmy Snuka defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. 7,800

12    WWF @ Landover 11. Mai 1985 @ Capital Centre in Landover, Maryland (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match]

13    WWF @ Hershey 17. Mai 1985 @ Hersheypark Arena in Hershey, Pennsylvania (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Roddy Piper no recorded result [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match]

14    WWF @ Montvale 19. Juni 1985 @ Fieldhouse in Montvale, New Jersey (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. by DQ

15    WWF @ Philadelphia 29. Juni 1985 @ The Spectrum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. 12,175

16    WWF @ Minneapolis 30. Juni 1985 @ Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota (United States of America)
Bob Orton Jr. and Roddy Piper defeated Paul Orndorff and Hulk Hogan by DQ 6,000

17    WWF @ Baltimore 6. Juli 1985 @ Civic Center in Baltimore, Maryland (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Roddy Piper DCO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match]

18    WWF @ Minneapolis 21. Juli 1985 @ Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 4,000

19    WWF @ St. Louis 26. Juli 1985 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Bob Orton Jr. and Roddy Piper 6,500

20    WWF @ Minneapolis 25. August 1985 @ Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. [Steel Cage Match]

21    WWF @ Cincinnati 2. September 1985 @ Riverfront Coliseum in Cincinnati, Ohio (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 10,366

22    WWF The Wrestling Classic  7. November 1985 @ Rosemont Horizon in Rosemont, Illinois (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 14,000

23    WWF @ West Palm Beach 25. November 1985 @ West Palm Beach Auditorium in West Palm Beach, Florida (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match]

24    WWF @ Chicago 13. Dezember 1985 @ Rosemont Horizon in Rosemont, Illinois (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. 12,400

25    WWF @ St. Louis 25. Januar 1986 @ Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America)
Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 8,000

[JRH]

On 8/7/2022 at 11:25 AM, JerryvonKramer said:

I've been tracking down some of the jobber vs jobber bouts at MSG and was interested to see Iron Mike Sharpe vs. SD Jones from October 19th 1990, an ATROCIOUS 10-minute match with an audible BORING chant. This match would have been bad in 1983, so to see it in the 1990 setting is something. Last SD Jones appearance at MSG and for WWF period, Sharpe would be relegated to pure TV squashes after that and never appeared at the Garden or major house show again.

 

What interested me is that the original broadcast had Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby Heenan on it, with the commentary dominated by Heenan complaining about Mr Perfect being screwed out of the IC title in the prior bout against Texas Tornado (double CO). However, it was broadcast later on the November 12th 1990 edition of Prime Time and the original commentary has been dubbed over by Sean Mooney and Lord Alfred Hayes, with the two of them generally hyping Survivor Series.

 

Can anyone recall how common this dubbing over of original commentary for Prime Time was? Was this match an exception or by 1990 did they always do it?

 

 

They did this quite a bit for Prime Time and All American as well. My theory is that the original commentary may have had references to the prior match/segment and since that segment didnt air (or at least not in the same order) it would be irrelevant. They did it for re-airings of syndie shows as well, the ep of Superstars where Earthquake injured Hogan had Ventura on commentary solo for the last two matches with Vince finally coming out sounding somber and disinterested in the matches while Ventura chided him for being so "unprofessional". For the Prime Time version though, those matches aired with the Mooney/Hayes combo and the Hogan incident, obviously, wasnt brought up.