JerryvonKramer Posted July 28, 2022 Report Share Posted July 28, 2022 MSG Broadcaster: MSG Network First broadcast: 10/25/76 Last broadcast: 3/23/92 (ONE OFF: 3/16/97) [+ occasional Meadowlands and Nassau Coliseum cards] Philly Spectrum Broadcaster: PRISM First broadcast: 7/21/79 Last broadcast: 2/11/89 Boston Garden Broadcaster: NESN First broadcast: 5/18/85 Last broadcast: 6/3/89 LA Sports Arena Broadcaster: Z Channel First broadcast: 7/15/88 Last broadcast: 1/29/89 Why did Vince pull the plug on airing House Shows in 1989? How come they did the MSG Network show in 1997? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted July 28, 2022 Report Share Posted July 28, 2022 I remember a few occasions where MSG Network would air house shows on Monday Nights going up against Prime Time Wrestling on USA. WWF essentially competing against itself. I want to say the MSG show the day after Royal Rumble 88 was one of those times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 MSG shows were traditionally always on a Monday until some point in the 90s First televised MSG card was actually 6/30/73 on HBO, before the MSG Network started. Same format, camera set up, Vince announcing, etc. First PRISM was 4/2/77 according to History of WWE. Little footage is out there of the 77-78 broadcasts though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Ricky Jackson said: First televised MSG card was actually 6/30/73 on HBO, before the MSG Network started. Same format, camera set up, Vince announcing, etc. Pretty sure this was also one of the first events aired on HBO as well. As for why it stopped, my intimal guess is that it probably wasn't profitable for them to keep doing since it was around that time sports networks started realizing they could make way more money airing pro/college sports instead of rasslin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 Isn't '89 also when the Hogan train started to slow down a bit? I recall in reading old Observers that the idea may have been to push people to buy house show tix instead of watching on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 Since making this thread, I became quite interested in how exactly Hogan was booked in the major house shows as compared with Bruno and Backlund. Let's just take three big ones and see his opponents month by month year-by-year and just his initial 1984-8 run. MSG 1984 Jan: Title win vs. Iron Sheik Feb: Orndorff March: not on card April: not on card May: Schultz June: not on card July: Valentine August: not on card September: Studd October: Studd (2) November: not on card December: Iron Sheik 1985 Jan: not on card Feb: Piper March: not on card March [Wrestlemania]: with Mr T vs. Piper (2) and Orndorff (2) April: Muraco May: Muraco (2) June: Muraco (3) July: not on card August: not on card September: not on card October: not on card November: not on card December: Savage 1986 Jan: Savage (2) Feb: Savage (3) March: not on card April: with Hillbilly Jim vs. Studd (3) and Bundy May: not on card June: not on card July: not on card August: not on card September: with Big and Super Machine vs. Bundy, Studd (4) and Heenan October: not on card November: with Piper vs. Orndorff (3) and Race December: Kamala 1987 Jan: Kamala (2) Feb: not on card March: no card April: no card May: Race (2) June: Race (2) July: not on card August: not on card September: One Man Gang October: not on card November: not on card December: not on card 1988 Jan: with Bigelow vs. DiBiase and Virgil loses title Philly Spectrum 1984 Jan: not on card Feb: Masked Superstar March: not on card April: no card May: Iron Sheik June: Iron Sheik (2) July: Orndorff August: Valentine September: not on card October: Studd November: not on card December: not on card 1985 Jan: not on card Feb: Beefcake March: not on card April: Orndorff (2) May: Patera June: with Orndorff vs. Piper and Orton Jr July: not on card August: not on card September: Savage October: not on card November: not on card December: Funk 1986 Jan: with Andre vs. Studd (2), Bundy and Heenan Feb: Bundy March: not on card April [March 30th]: with Steamboat vs. Muraco and Johnny V May: with Orndorff vs. Muarco (2) and Bundy (2) May [May 31st]: not on card June: Bundy (3) July: Adonis August: not on card September: Orndorff (3) October: Orndorff (4) November: not on card December: Orndorff (5) 1987 Jan: not on card Feb: Kamala March: with Piper vs. Kamala (2) and Orndorff (6) April: no card May: Race June: with Patera vs. Race (2) and Hercules July: not on card August: not on card September: Khan October: not on card November: not on card December: One Man Gang 1988 Jan: not on card loses title Boston Garden 1984 Jan: not on card Feb: Iron Sheik March: Schultz April: not on card May: not on card June: not on card July: Orndorff August: not on card September: not on card October: Piper November: Piper (2) December: not on card 1985 Jan: not on card Feb: not on card March: Muraco April: no card May: with Snuka vs. Muraco (2) and Orton Jr June: Studd July: no card August: not on card September: Bundy October: Bundy (2) November: not on card December: not on card 1986 Jan: not on card Feb: not on card March: with JYD vs. The Funks April: not on card May: Savage June: Savage (2) July: no card August: with Steele vs. Savage (3) and Adonis September: not on card October: not on card November: not on card December: Kamala 1987 Jan: not on card Feb: not on card March: with Piper and Haynes vs. Orndorff (2), Adonis (2) and Hercules April: not on card May: Race June: Race (2) July: not on card August: not on card September: Khan October: not on card November: not on card December: not on card 1988 Jan: Rude loses title ---------------- I may fill in some other arenas later like Maple Leaf Gardens, Cap Centre, Meadowlands or LA Sports Arena, but from this we can see a few things: 1. Hogan made drastically fewer shows than either Bruno or Backlund. He was booked almost like Andre as a special attraction and often not in back-to-back months. 2. Orndorff was the standard fill-in opponent especially at Philly. 3. They seldom worked the old 3-match loop, in fact in 4 years across three different venues, they just did it once: Muraco at MSG in 1985. 4. Not all guys who got a shot at Philly or Boston would work MSG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 13 hours ago, JerryvonKramer said: Since making this thread, I became quite interested in how exactly Hogan was booked in the major house shows as compared with Bruno and Backlund. You mean, in 12 hours? 13 hours ago, JerryvonKramer said: 1. Hogan made drastically fewer shows than either Bruno or Backlund. He was booked almost like Andre as a special attraction and often not in back-to-back months. Do you think this gives credence to Bruno's theory - and even Ole's - that Hogan could not have worked as a weekly/monthly draw, playing to the same audiences repeatedly? If so, what explains his monstrous AWA success, given that was very much a territorial system. The early to mid-80s are such a fascinating period, before 1988 when WWF and Hogan truly became the only national players in town in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 One thing to consider about Hogan's 80s booking is that he was often booked at the Meadowlands and Nassau Coliseum during months he wasn't booked at MSG. So still in the same market. Sometimes what were basically rematches from MSG shows would be held at the Meadowlands. Hogan vs OMG in 1987 being one example off the top of my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDuke Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 I'm actually surprised that in 1986 he was having singles matches against Orndorff so much but not having the same singles matches in Boston or MSG. I always thought in 86 Hogan/Orndorff was this huge draw, but maybe only in certain markets. The MLG and Hamilton cards would be interesting to compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 hour ago, MoS said: Do you think this gives credence to Bruno's theory - and even Ole's - that Hogan could not have worked as a weekly/monthly draw, playing to the same audiences repeatedly? If so, what explains his monstrous AWA success, given that was very much a territorial system. The AWA was by far the most geographically dispersed territory, stretching from Wisconsin all the way to northern California. He wasn't wrestling before the same crowds every week like Lawler at the Mid-South Coliseum or the Von Erichs at the Sportatorium. Also, he was gone a good part of the year due to his New Japan commitments, which surely helped prevent him from wearing out his welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 Had Verne started promoting in San Fran and the NorCal territories when Hogan was still there in AWA? I always thought that Vince was the first promoter post the glory days to promote there, using Andre the Giant to break the open market, several years after Shire's territory had passed away. Salt Lake City was a bad town for Verne, so he would not have spent too much time in that region, even in 1983 when he had Hogan. Don't know if Verne used Hogan at all in his forays to the West Coast, but Hogan did draw immediately for WWF in that region - pretty much the day he headlined on the West Coast for the first time - so maybe WWF just took advantage of Hogan's burgeoning drawing power on the West Coast due to Verne to achieve that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 Also, there are some inconsistencies in cumulation and record-keeping of the different opponents, particularly their number of headlining main events against Hogan. The overall picture doesn't change, so it is not a material difference, but nevertheless, for some nerds, if we look closely, there are some differences and inconsistencies in the overall record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 The AWA actually didn't draw that well in the Bay Area even with Hogan. Cable was stronger there than in most places, and the AWA seemed old and slow compared to Georgia wrestling on TBS. Verne got a date on Tommy Rich and he drew double what Hogan was drawing in the area. By the way, if Cagematch is to be believed, Hogan's last AWA match was in Phoenix of all places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 On 7/28/2022 at 9:23 PM, sek69 said: Pretty sure this was also one of the first events aired on HBO as well. As for why it stopped, my intimal guess is that it probably wasn't profitable for them to keep doing since it was around that time sports networks started realizing they could make way more money airing pro/college sports instead of rasslin. FWIW, around that time MSG inked a historic deal with the Yankees, which I thought could have been a factor. The deal meant that with their regular Knick and Ranger broadcasts, they’d have a live major sporting event broadcasted virtually every day in a calendar year. But that happened before the end of the run. What was the timeline with the development of Raw? That could also have been a factor as well. In terms of “why are we letting house shows air, when we have a new weekly prime time show? Especially with more production values and content than we could do with the broadcasts of the house shows.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 Raw started in 1993, but the last few years of Prime Time they were noticeably cutting back on the arena matches and focusing more on extended skits and showing matches from the other syndicated shows. Speaking of, with WWE improving the quality of their syndicated shows so quickly, I remember how jarring that was as a kid. All weekend I would watch this slick ass state of the art (for the time) production and then on Monday night I'd watch Bobby and Gorilla banter between matches from MSG that looked like they could have been from either 1986 or 1976 based on the quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 Interesting thread and backs up that Hogan wasn't a month to month draw in large markets. Really makes you think about wrestlers who could be weekly draws in the same town for years and years. Something Hogan could never claim to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 On 7/29/2022 at 11:59 AM, JerryvonKramer said: I may fill in some other arenas later like Maple Leaf Gardens If you do that, it will be interesting for me because I was at the majority of those shows. There was a long stretch there during the 1980s where I did not miss a show at Maple Leaf Gardens. I saw Hogan fight Savage, very early in Savage’s WWF run, long before they feuded. I also saw him fight Kamala, Killer Khan and Bad News Brown. If I recall correctly (and I might not) the fight against Bad News Brown was right before the first Summerslam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 This took a good while to put together and there's a chance I missed a date here or there as I was zoning out towards the end. Just a few notes: 1. I can't really work out any logic or pattern, but it's clear that at any one time the WWF was running split crews and Hogan headed up one side and someone like Savage, the IC champ or the Tag Champs would head up the other side. Still, the number of major shows Hogan did not make during his primary run as champ is still a little shocking to me. Obviously, not every venue here ran every month (e.g. Nassau) but a good number of them did and he just wasn't on them. Meadowlands in particular, but also I was expecting more Maple Leaf Gardens appearances. 2. The sheer number of matches with Orndorff is something: he was the go-to opponent across almost every secondary market in both 84 and 86 and for a good chunk of 85 as well. Many of the regular stops and the smaller towns are not listed here, but I'd say Pittsburgh or the Cap Centre are pretty representative of what was happening around the horn. It could be that Hogan loved working with Paula and that they had great chemistry together, but I can't imagine Vince would run the match THAT many times if that is all it was. Orndorff must have been insanely over to be given that many main even gates in one of the hottest ace runs in wrestling history -- and not just once, but TWICE over. 3. Distinct lack of Piper matches in general especially when you compare with Orndorff. As a basis of comparison, I reckon Adrian Adonis had as many title shots in 1985 if not more. Just a bit surprising given how hot Piper was and with him being the main villain of the cartoon. 4. The booking around Ventura vs. Hogan -- a natural feud -- seems incredibly tentative. I know Jesse had injury issues, but every shot looks like a testing of the waters and a dipping the toe in. Maybe natural animosity between the two men? 5. Both Studd and Muraco were still treated as major deals in 1985. Studd in particular seems to have been used to break into new markets. I'm guessing he was over on the West Coast because the booking seems to switch to Studd from other opponents when they were breaking into Cali. Given the general state of Muraco in 1985, it's strange he was given so many shots including THREE in a row at MSG. Of other workers, only Savage got this. 6. Hogan seemed to be struggling for opponents in 1987. They'd run every other feud into the ground (Orndorff, Muraco, Piper, Studd, etc), but -- at least to my eyes -- Kamala, Killer Khan and One Man Gang just don't seem like top caliber opponents. Harley Race still had big name recognition, of course, and Race basically played that Orndorff role across the summer in most markets. If memory serves an injury stopped that program short? Just on paper though, the 1987 booking starts to look a bit Dungeon of Doom-y and regardless of what else was going on, you can see why they took the belt off him, there was nowhere else to go. Also he seemed to work noticeably fewer dates that year. 7. Finally, this is just a little quirk, but those Masked Superstar matches have never been collected either on VHS or DVD. I'm guessing this is because they didn't want to remind people that Bill Eadie worked another gimmick, but he's the only opponent of those listed who doesn't have at least one of the title shots on a WWE release to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 I didn't know this until Between the Sheets covered it, but apparently Ventura didn't really have his falling out with Hogan until his royalties lawsuit--that's when he discovered that Hogan was the one who ratted him out when he started talking unionization. Supposedly they were friends or at least friendly during Ventura's time in the WWF. That said...I'm not sure there wasn't a "How come him and not me?" twinge of jealousy on Jesse's part, either. Even if we can break down what Hogan did after the bell rang better than Jesse, I'm sure Jesse wasn't really going to see it that way. Or maybe Vince, Pat, and/or George Scott just thought they were too similar. Jim Cornette talked about how the Road Warriors drew better against the Midnights and Arn/Tully than they did against the POP or Skyscrapers, because "it was rock vs. rock--you need paper or scissors in there." Honestly, I don't know what you do with Hogan after Mania 3 short of bringing in Flair or someone else at least fresh. If Andre can't beat him, who is going to buy that Harley Race in 1987 is going to? They brilliantly managed to freshen up Hogan by making him a chaser in 1988 and then giving him the most intensely personal feud of his career in '89, but for the rest of '87...I agree. He still drew some surprisingly big houses with Khan but the Monster-of-the-Week formula had burnt itself out by the time DiBiase arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 That Hogan/Kamala match is so good. I really need to watch the Killer Khan match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 I've been watching the old George Steele 1986 Timeline -- Steele is actually a very very good interview. He puts a slightly more positive spin on Hogan not being able to draw on the return match. In his view, it is because Hogan was booked so strong that fans simply wouldn't buy that he could lose on the return match so that's why they did so many one and dones. On paper, it's the same as Bruno's long standing criticism, but it just gives a slightly different reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethantyler Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Hogan vs Orndorff is the greatest house show run of all time, in terms of business, so the repetitiveness of it may simply have been dictated by the numbers. Agreed on Steele being a great interview - clearly a smart guy. Would've made a decent booker in another universe. His view on who should be belted and who shouldn't has always stayed with me. Anyway, he speaks from experience on the "return" problem with Hogan - it didn't exist as much with Bruno. Steele himself, Monsoon, Kowalski, etc all drew well with Bruno many, many times. Hogan was booked so strong and getting anyone to be considered a credible opponent for him was borderline impossible for a while there. Post-87, the options were more limited but some fantasy choices still exist. Brody and Gordy probably being the most notable ones. Both would've drawn well, but obviously other stumbling blocks to making those feuds happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Didn't Dave always say that Brody wanted to have a big money program with Hogan at one point? That'd be a pretty interesting "What If" scenario. I can't imagine Brody lasting longer than five minutes in the WWF without either pissing someone off or getting pissed off himself though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Supposedly, Brody's plan was to go to the WWF and end his career with one last big-money run with Hogan once he was too broken-down for Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2022 I noticed something a little odd: Prime-Time didn't feature a single match from Philly until 1987, then it features a lot, but by 1988 it's down to six matches for the whole year and in 1989 zero again. I have a theory that Vince didn't want Dick Graham on his main cable TV, but anyone know why Prime-Time tended to be the other big shows but never Philly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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