Bryan Danielson's historical importance

[yesdanielbryan]

Considering that is full time career is ended, how would you judge Bryan Danielson's historical importance? If he never existed how pro wrestling history would have been different? Without Kind of Indies Tournament in 2001, would have ROH ever existed? And without ROH, would have AEW ever existed? What is his role in that?

I'm not asking you about his quality, but about historical importance

[Laz]

Hmmm...just some brief spitfire ideas here.

-King of the Indies 2001 leads to ROH in the same way that ECW's demise and JAPW's roster leads to ROH. It's a trifecta thing. RF needed a new cash cow with ECW gone, Gabe still wanted to be in, and they saw in Bryan (and others) what was a direct opposite to the majority of the industry at that time. He wasn't a deathmatch guy like you'd find in CZW or XPW, he wasn't cut out to be a Monday night player, and he had credibility with the who's who of available talent.

-ROH changes how matches operate throughout the entire western scene, for better and worse. Bryan was a key player early on but wasn't clicking like Gabe probably wanted him to, so I can't say Bryan offered an insane amount of influence here. The lion's share has to be with LowKi, Christopher Daniels, Samoa Joe, and CM Punk. Bryan has an all-time run from late 2005 to 2008, with just so many amazing matches in that timeframe, but he's not THE REASON to watch. Instrumental in cementing ROH as an alternative and elevating its credibility, but it took him a little while to make it work for him.

-It's the WWE run that makes Bryan matter. As much as I love the matches with Nigel and Joe and KENTA and Morishima, it's the prime time portrayal of a nerd, that "B+ player," that makes him matter. He capitalized on the public fallout between Punk and WWE in a big way, where the shoddy booking actually did elevate him. It's through this that the indies go into overdrive, IMO, and that's how we get AEW today.

Is Bryan the most influential talent of his generation? I wouldn't necessarily say so. Is he the overall best when it comes to in-ring performance? Yes. Maybe that's also a tally in his favor, because he was a major figurehead for an industry shift toward talent being able to work high quality matches on a regular basis instead of relying solely on the angles and big moments to carry them.

[yesdanielbryan]

7 hours ago, Laz said:

Hmmm...just some brief spitfire ideas here.

-King of the Indies 2001 leads to ROH in the same way that ECW's demise and JAPW's roster leads to ROH. It's a trifecta thing. RF needed a new cash cow with ECW gone, Gabe still wanted to be in, and they saw in Bryan (and others) what was a direct opposite to the majority of the industry at that time. He wasn't a deathmatch guy like you'd find in CZW or XPW, he wasn't cut out to be a Monday night player, and he had credibility with the who's who of available talent.

-ROH changes how matches operate throughout the entire western scene, for better and worse. Bryan was a key player early on but wasn't clicking like Gabe probably wanted him to, so I can't say Bryan offered an insane amount of influence here. The lion's share has to be with LowKi, Christopher Daniels, Samoa Joe, and CM Punk. Bryan has an all-time run from late 2005 to 2008, with just so many amazing matches in that timeframe, but he's not THE REASON to watch. Instrumental in cementing ROH as an alternative and elevating its credibility, but it took him a little while to make it work for him.

-It's the WWE run that makes Bryan matter. As much as I love the matches with Nigel and Joe and KENTA and Morishima, it's the prime time portrayal of a nerd, that "B+ player," that makes him matter. He capitalized on the public fallout between Punk and WWE in a big way, where the shoddy booking actually did elevate him. It's through this that the indies go into overdrive, IMO, and that's how we get AEW today.

Is Bryan the most influential talent of his generation? I wouldn't necessarily say so. Is he the overall best when it comes to in-ring performance? Yes. Maybe that's also a tally in his favor, because he was a major figurehead for an industry shift toward talent being able to work high quality matches on a regular basis instead of relying solely on the angles and big moments to carry them.

In your opinion, who are the other contenders to be the most influential wrestler of Bryan's generation?

[EnviousStupid]

I think Bryan's importance on the independent scene is overstated, largely from being a constant over the 2000s and often featured in ROH during its hottest period. Guys like Low Ki, Samoa Joe, CM Punk, AJ Styles came and went, but Bryan stuck around and was a reliable worker with whatever he was given. It's not like you could throw a Roderick Strong or Doug Williams in all the spots that Bryan was given and the matches/feuds/promos would be just as good, but it's worth noting that Bryan was usually not the first choice for promoters in terms of who they'd build around. While it seems insane to think about now, if it weren't for Bockwinkel, Bryan doesn't reach the King of the Indies finals, let alone wins it.

[Jmare007]

Yeah, I don't think he has a big historical significance in the sense of changing the business. Even his WWE run didn't really lead to changes and if anything, Punk was first in the "indy internet darling that made it" wagon, and he was consistently a bigger draw for the E.

If Danielson doesn't become a wrestler the business and the fans lose in terms of artistic value -for lack of a better term- but I don't think anything really changes.

This is not a 1 to 1 comparison -I'm certain there's tons of arguments to make better comps than this one- but if Daniel Day Lewis doesn't become an actor, cinema (and certainly Hollywood) doesn't really change much, but they do miss out on some classic and memorable performances.

 

[Laz]

6 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

This is not a 1 to 1 comparison -I'm certain there's tons of arguments to make better comps than this one- but if Daniel Day Lewis doesn't become an actor, cinema (and certainly Hollywood) doesn't really change much, but they do miss out on some classic and memorable performances.

 

Ooooooh, good one.

12 hours ago, yesdanielbryan said:

In your opinion, who are the other contenders to be the most influential wrestler of Bryan's generation?

Punk, Joe, and Styles maybe?

[NintendoLogic]

Punk and Bryan should be paired together in terms of influence because neither would be anywhere near as big a deal without the other. Punk opened the door for indy guys to be legit WWE main eventers and was a bigger draw overall, but Bryan was the one who proved the concept had staying power. Given the circumstances of Punk's first departure from WWE, the company likely would have written off the indy experiment as a failure had Bryan not gotten over organically to the degree he did.

[yesdanielbryan]

19 hours ago, Laz said:

Ooooooh, good one.

Punk, Joe, and Styles maybe?

How would you order Punk, Joe, Bryan and Styles?

[Laz]

On 11/22/2024 at 12:23 PM, yesdanielbryan said:

How would you order Punk, Joe, Bryan and Styles?

In terms of personal preference? Bryan, Joe, Styles, Punk.

In terms of overall importance? Punk, Styles, Bryan, Joe.

[G. Badger]

I've enjoyed reading this and thinking about it quite a bit. I think it's difficult to judge historical importance this close...like maybe 10 years from now we can have a better idea. But I don't think wrestlers have historical importance within wrestling unless they are absolute revolutionary figures. And I'm not sure Danielson is one. Like most wrestlers, I think he's just part of a revolutionary group of talent that helped change things. I think his lasting legacy might be his technical abilities in a time where it was no longer important over flashy moves & spots...and having the Wrestling Observer Best Technical Wrestler of the Year Award be renamed the Bryan Danielson award might be his lasting legacy. Not even CM Punk has that distinction.

[Microstatistics]

Interesting question and I think I agree with the majority of comments here: Bryan was an in-ring prodigy but not necessarily someone who was singularly important for putting US indie wrestling on the map in the 21st century. He was just one of the guys involved in its ascension (albeit the best one wrestling-wise).

Overall, Punk is a bigger draw and seemingly the bigger name, though it is hard to overstate just how over Bryan was in WWE from late-2013 to early-2015. 

[KawadaSmile]

I'd even argue that in terms of shaping how wrestlers tackled in-ring action, Amazing Red and Low Ki were bigger influences.

To keep bubba @Jmare007's cinema comparisons: Joss Whedon's not really the greatest writer ever, but his work on Buffy shaped how characters talked, specially when he made the jump to the MCU.

[G. Badger]

I wonder if Petey Williams is as or more historically important than Danielson for creating the Canadian Destroyer... It's like people who never saw a Jake the Snake match know that he created the DDT. I wonder if it's the same for Petey??

[David Mantell]

Bryan Danielson is the only wrestler to have won BOTH:

1) a Mountevans Rules World championship (Rollerball Rocco's old Heavy Middleweight title)

AND

2) a version of the World Heavyweight Championship recognised as valid by Pro Wrestling Illustrated (the old World Heavyweight Championship of 2002-2010)

[C.S.]

On 12/5/2024 at 3:13 PM, KawadaSmile said:

I'd even argue that in terms of shaping how wrestlers tackled in-ring action, Amazing Red and Low Ki were bigger influences.

I'm curious about this, so I hope you can expand on it.

As far as I know, Amazing Red was and is a cult favorite at best. I can buy isolated wrestlers aping his style. Beyond that, I don't know.

Low Ki has never worked anywhere major (I don't consider the tape trading era of ROH to be major or his failed stint in WWE as Kaval), drawn any money, done anything of any significance (I don't consider collecting random indie titles to be significant), and most importantly, I've never heard of any wrestlers cite him as an influence, nor have I seen any evidence in anyone else's style that he was an influence (at least nothing that couldn't be explained in a million other ways). At best, he was an indie/IWC favorite for a spell who looked cool and did some cool shit, but none of it ever mattered long term because he couldn't get out of his own way.

Granted, I bring my own biases to this assessment. I generally don't invest in egomaniacal headcases who never last anywhere. Life is too short to rally behind "here today, gone tomorrow" phantoms with a grossly inflated sense of self-importance. Another reason I could never get into Austin Aries either. These guys want to be Bruiser Brody, metaphorically speaking, without bringing any of the special qualities he had. 

As boring as WWE is and has been for years, it's a major platform with much wider visibility, so guys who made it there - like Bryan and Punk - are going to have a much larger sphere of influence by default. 

Ditto for AEW to a degree. 

[sek69]

I never thought I'd see the day that Bryan Danielson was considered overrated, but here we are I suppose. It seemed like every DVD that ROH sold (which was their primary source of income) featured Bryan, and in a promotion where workrate was king he was never far from the top of the list. His WWE run is probably his most impactful considering he managed to get himself over to the point of main eventing Wrestlemania when the company clearly didn't see him at that level. I think maybe everyone's so used to fans "hijacking the show" that it's easy to forget how remarkable it was at the time for that to happen. He's someone the exact opposite of everything Vince looked for in a top guy and he willed himself into main eventing the biggest show. 

There's also the matter of his importance to the next generation as well. I'd wager there's a lot of people who got in the biz because they were Danielson fans and that kind of legacy can't be ignored in my opinion. Not to mention he's one of the best babyfaces I've ever seen in wrestling in terms of getting the crowd invested in the match. He's also one of the few people who seemingly is incapable of having a bad match. Sure he's been in there with a lot of other top tier workers, but he's been able to work magic with folks who maybe aren't at that level as well. 

[Jmare007]

9 hours ago, sek69 said:

I never thought I'd see the day that Bryan Danielson was considered overrated, but here we are I suppose. It seemed like every DVD that ROH sold (which was their primary source of income) featured Bryan, and in a promotion where workrate was king he was never far from the top of the list. His WWE run is probably his most impactful considering he managed to get himself over to the point of main eventing Wrestlemania when the company clearly didn't see him at that level. I think maybe everyone's so used to fans "hijacking the show" that it's easy to forget how remarkable it was at the time for that to happen. He's someone the exact opposite of everything Vince looked for in a top guy and he willed himself into main eventing the biggest show. 

There's also the matter of his importance to the next generation as well. I'd wager there's a lot of people who got in the biz because they were Danielson fans and that kind of legacy can't be ignored in my opinion. Not to mention he's one of the best babyfaces I've ever seen in wrestling in terms of getting the crowd invested in the match. He's also one of the few people who seemingly is incapable of having a bad match. Sure he's been in there with a lot of other top tier workers, but he's been able to work magic with folks who maybe aren't at that level as well. 

I feel Danielson's case is mainly performance based. And yes, those of us that rate him highly will always sing his praises and argue for him to be placed on a "greatest ever" tier. But to me, historical importance goes beyond that. I don't think the business changed or flipped when he was active and it certainly didn't suffer while he was/is gone. His WWE run is the one thing you could make a case but I feel like without Punk, Bryan might not even get signed in 2009 and by Dragon's own take on the matter, without Punk leaving, he wasn't maineventing WM 30 either. And his injuries didn't let him have a proper run on top to make a case of any lasting influence either. The one big lesson Vince got from Danielson was that he could book babyfaces like complete losers and maybe the people would get so mad at him that they would rally behind and get him more over (which didn't really work with anyone because Dragon's case was unique). 

Him being part of indy wave of the 2000s is relevant, for sure. But again, I feel other wrestlers were more important than him in making it as special/important as it was. 

 

 

[Gramsci]

There are very few wrestlers who have been historically relevant and have changed the course of history.

I think both Punk and Bryan have their own merits and a similar historical importance, but Punk is someone who, within the WWE spectrum, is more marketable than Danielson. I think Danielson's greatest achievement is looking like an ordinary guy from the street and breaking all the molds to conquer the most ridiculous gimmick within the parody that is WWE: being in the main event of WrestleMania. If Punk hadn't left in 2014, we wouldn't have had the Bryan/HHH match, but he would have been in the main event one way or another. The situation was untenable. The funniest thing about it is that he didn't even care that much, and he seemed much more excited when he headlined the Tokyo Dome with Okada (his promo after the match is very revealing).

Bryan could have signed with WWE even without Punk; Regal and Michaels' influence was far more significant than Punk's role. In late 2008/early 2009, plagued by injuries, he decided to call Regal about joining WWE so he could at least buy a house and save some money. His first real option was to go to New Japan.

[TheBean]

It's telling that without CM Punk's success first, we wouldn't be talking about Danielson's historical importance. I think Danielson could have been another Paul London & Spanky Kendrick. Those guys were his peers more than Punk. You can see it in the booking of ROH & others.

Coming back to this topic, I think Danielson helped open the flood gates for the "smaller" indie (ROH) guys. A few years later ROH seemed to become like ECW before it & act as a feeder to WWE/NXT... guys like Tyler Black & Generico being the best early examples. These type of guys were all going to TNA before Danielson (and obviously some still did afterward). Additionally this in effect made something like AEW possible but I think that's probably his most important contribution to WWE and wrestling history at large. Which is a pretty big contribution!

[David Mantell]

Nice singing skills!