Thoughts on the following wrestlers

[Bix]

Yeah, using the WON poll and/or Dave's personal rankings isn't the greatest idea when Jumbo routinely placed on the lower end (not at all once IIRC) and Tiger Jeet Singh got praise.

[Guest KCook]

Magnum was the perfect white trash warrior. There's this moment in the I Quit match where Tully is a simpering, beaten puddle of blood and snot and Magnum, having beaten him, is getting ready to pound the living shit out of him and pay him back for all his wickedness. He looks to the crowd, which wants him to kill Tully, and then just lets the little shit collapse on the mat, because having proven himself the better man he knows that skinning Tully would just be stooping to his level. An awesome, iconic moment, and no one who can connect with a crowd like that and act out out so perfectly the idiot morality play at the heart of wrestling can possibly be considered a bad worker in my book, though I don't think he had it in him to ever be anything more than Diamond Dallas Page or John Cena with a gay prostitute look.

[jdw]

Are you asking me to or stating it as a fact: "Yes, Bix gives examples when challenged"?

 

If you're asking, I'd be glad to.

I'm not asking. I'm offering you up as an example: if someone wanted to have Lawler walked through to help get him, you'd be able and willing to do it.

 

 

I seriously don't get asserting that Kikuchi, a guy who idolized Dynamite Kid and used his trademark moves in addition to a variety of double team moves and early springboard moves, and I believe even added moves after his prime (did he use the Spider German Suplex before his Noah resurgence?) has a limited arsenal. That seriously sounds like trolling someone for an argument more than anything, as I'm sure Frank has seen plenty of Kikuchi.

At the time (late 90s), Frank was Big Match Centric in his collecting of All Japan. Also focused on the heavies. So stuff like Kobashi & Kikuchi vs. Akiyama & Kikuchi just wouldn't have been on his radar when having Lynch make him a custom. He *might* have gotten Kobashi & Kikuchi vs. the Can-Ams because it took the WON MOTY, be even that wouldn't interested him in ordering as much as Kobashi singles matches against Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Taue, Hansen, Doc, Gordy, the Patriot, Johnny Ace... etc. He'd get big World Tag Title matches and the big teams hooking up in the Tag League, but the six-mans weren't something he'd grab unless it was pointed to.

 

When you were starting an AJPW collection from nothing back in those days, that's usually how it was. You might try to get a hook up for the *new* weekly TV, but by the late 90s the AJPW weekly TV wasn't very insightful on what Kikuchi was up to.

 

No doubt Frank trolled for a lot of things, as do all of us. But Kikuchi was simply something he was ignorant on since he just hadn't watched as much 1990-93 Kikuchi as some of the rest of us did. When given even a list from *one* match, he instantly agreed that he underestimated Kikuchi's offense from the small amount he'd seen of him.

 

There *are* times when giving examples work. Just saying Dandy is a Great Motherfucking Worker~! and pointing me to 2-3 matches can be hit and miss. There are times when you need to help a viewer with what they're looking for. I'm not entirely sure that Maggie is that way or not. I'd be surprised if he is, since he wasn't exactly a unconventional worker. But I may also be overlooking things he does well similar to Kerry Von Erich doing things well when "on" and being a decent enough babyface.

 

 

Snipping the Backlund portion of your post, you have the realize that given how mechanically, he did look awkward, and his facial expressions & body language were largely goofy looking, he is going to be off-putting to a number of people even if he did have strengths in other areas.

I've always realized that. But...

 

Dory Funk is awkward and mechanical as all shit, not to mention Akira Taue being even more awkward and mechnical.

 

Terry Funk is goofy as all shit... far more goofy than Bob frankly.

 

People are able to look past that. In the case of Dory, I think 90% of it is simply because people have been told Dory was GREAT~! so they just cut him slack for a lot of the shitty or shitty looking stuff he does. In the case of Terry, we just happen to love the goofy shit he does. Hell... this is a guy who was hiding under a car in a parking lot because he was "scared" of the insane Sabu. And we all found it funny as shit in a good way. But seriously, it was goofy fucked up shit.

 

I look at Bob's "goofiness" these days and see things that are similar to everything from how Bruno worked up those same crowds to how Kenta Kobashi worked him All Japan crowd... even after he moved from being a young boy to being the #2 face in the company and the TC Champ. Wrestling is goofy. We all freaking know it. Christ... I suspect that a lot of us here that that a certain Lucha transvestite was a hell of a worker in the 90s, and how much goofier than that shit can you get?

 

Goofy and awkward are part of the business. If people can't see past that to what Backlund did well, or even how extremely effective the "goofy" was in doing the most important thing in wrestling (connecting with the fans), than they really aren't the people I'm writing when talking about Backlund. And I suspect it's pretty obvious from what I write in discussing him and other wrestlers in the WWF 80s series that I'm more than willing to take shots at them. One of my favorite spots is to point out stuff that's "goofy" or "sucky" if Bob does it, but cool when someone else does it because they're a KEWL~! wrestler.

 

John

[Bix]

Are you asking me to or stating it as a fact: "Yes, Bix gives examples when challenged"?

 

If you're asking, I'd be glad to.

I'm not asking. I'm offering you up as an example: if someone wanted to have Lawler walked through to help get him, you'd be able and willing to do it.

Gotcha.

 

At the time (late 90s), Frank was Big Match Centric in his collecting of All Japan. Also focused on the heavies. So stuff like Kobashi & Kikuchi vs. Akiyama & Kikuchi just wouldn't have been on his radar when having Lynch make him a custom. He *might* have gotten Kobashi & Kikuchi vs. the Can-Ams because it took the WON MOTY, be even that wouldn't interested him in ordering as much as Kobashi singles matches against Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Taue, Hansen, Doc, Gordy, the Patriot, Johnny Ace... etc. He'd get big World Tag Title matches and the big teams hooking up in the Tag League, but the six-mans weren't something he'd grab unless it was pointed to.

 

When you were starting an AJPW collection from nothing back in those days, that's usually how it was. You might try to get a hook up for the *new* weekly TV, but by the late 90s the AJPW weekly TV wasn't very insightful on what Kikuchi was up to.

 

No doubt Frank trolled for a lot of things, as do all of us. But Kikuchi was simply something he was ignorant on since he just hadn't watched as much 1990-93 Kikuchi as some of the rest of us did. When given even a list from *one* match, he instantly agreed that he underestimated Kikuchi's offense from the small amount he'd seen of him.

So he was exposed to Kikuchi matches on the undercards of "big" matches as opposed to Kikuchi's own "big" matches (either in status or Meltzer pimping like the Can-Ams '92 MOTY or the tag w/ Malenko vs Fantastics)?

 

Snipping the Backlund portion of your post, you have the realize that given how mechanically, he did look awkward, and his facial expressions & body language were largely goofy looking, he is going to be off-putting to a number of people even if he did have strengths in other areas.

I've always realized that. But...

 

Dory Funk is awkward and mechanical as all shit, not to mention Akira Taue being even more awkward and mechnical.

Reading the WON piece on his retirement, I got the impression that Dory was much better in context touring as champion with Terry trying to stop potential challengers, etc. With no TV from then, he's just a bland dude as opposed to a quiet conniving dude who relied on his crazy brother to help him out.

 

Terry Funk is goofy as all shit... far more goofy than Bob frankly.

That was an aspect of character: Crazy punch drunk guy, as opposed to Bob who was more a guy who happened to come off as dorky.

 

I look at Bob's "goofiness" these days and see things that are similar to everything from how Bruno worked up those same crowds to how Kenta Kobashi worked him All Japan crowd... even after he moved from being a young boy to being the #2 face in the company and the TC Champ. Wrestling is goofy. We all freaking know it. Christ... I suspect that a lot of us here that that a certain Lucha transvestite was a hell of a worker in the 90s, and how much goofier than that shit can you get?

Goofy and awkward are part of the business. If people can't see past that to what Backlund did well, or even how extremely effective the "goofy" was in doing the most important thing in wrestling (connecting with the fans), than they really aren't the people I'm writing when talking about Backlund. And I suspect it's pretty obvious from what I write in discussing him and other wrestlers in the WWF 80s series that I'm more than willing to take shots at them. One of my favorite spots is to point out stuff that's "goofy" or "sucky" if Bob does it, but cool when someone else does it because they're a KEWL~! wrestler.

It's his variety of it that people aren't crazy about. If he had a different image/look from "first non-ethnic white guy babyface WWWF champion" then his mannerisms probably wouldn't annoy people as much, but between his look, mannerisms, and sometimes odd execution, it's easy to see why some people aren't crazy about him and some even despise him.

[jdw]

He's stating it as fact, trying to get me to provide more in-depth analysis of why Magnum TA was a good worker. I haven't done that, because I'm considered to be too long-winded as is, and if I'm going to sink that much time and effort into this, I'd like to be sure that I'm not just repeating stuff John already knows. John doesn't want to tell me what he already knows, so we're at an impasse.

I think we're at an impasse because you don't seem to be willing to pop in those matches you pimped and walk through what Maggie was doing great in them.

 

WTF?

 

If you want me to give an example of why I think one of the original myths that Jumbo Was Lazy because he Didn't Fire Up In Big Matches was nosensical, it's here:

 

03/13/86 Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Animal Hamaguchi

 

Is it long winded? Sure... really fucking long winded.

 

But the people making that claim had a certain amount of credibility. There never was *any* chance that I could convince them to change their mind because they're utterly locked into it, to the point of making up new shit for fall back positions. I'm not playing to him.

 

On the other hand, there were people who might (i) buy what Meltzer said because of his credibility, but are (ii) still open minded enough to listen to reasonable arguments and example. I'm playing to *them*, and to do so I need to give examples to make it clear on a lot of levels why that match is a perfect example of how far off base Meltzer is on his thinking about Jumbo from there era. Right down to Dave's own review of the match originally in the WON:

 

"All Japan: 3/13 in Tokyo: [...] 4. Jumbo Tsuruta pinned Animal Hamaguchi

with a vertical block in an excellent bout. Started slow but Hamaguchi, a

workaholic, really turned it on using every move in the world on his much

larger foe. Animal is only about 5-7 and Jumbo is 6-3. I don't think Jumbo

wanted this good of a match. ****"

-Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer Newsletter, 04/15/86

Dave simply wasn't an observant enough viewer of matches to see or understand just how much that match was exactly as good as Jumbo wanted, because he clearly led the match from even before the opening bell.

 

Dave will never admit that or see that. There are other things in wrestling that I might get him to see, and still can. But not that. And because Dave is Dave, there are some who will continue to buy it despite a walk through a match like that.

 

But again... I'm not playing to him. In the Jumbo Was Lazy discussions, I was playing to people like Bix or Iron Chad. Bix had his own thoughts on Jumbo from watching him, and also read enough stuff that I wrote that he had the great fun of blowing Dave out of the water on WO Live on night about the Tag League that Dave was trying to use as his latest fall back.

 

So... you're not wasting your breath. At some point I'll dig into the Mid South stuff in depth, and of course there will be all the Crockett stuff. Giving me examples to look for is helpful.

 

 

John

[S.L.L.]

He's stating it as fact, trying to get me to provide more in-depth analysis of why Magnum TA was a good worker. I haven't done that, because I'm considered to be too long-winded as is, and if I'm going to sink that much time and effort into this, I'd like to be sure that I'm not just repeating stuff John already knows. John doesn't want to tell me what he already knows, so we're at an impasse.

I think we're at an impasse because you don't seem to be willing to pop in those matches you pimped and walk through what Maggie was doing great in them.

If you're unwilling to give me the Cliff Notes version of why Magnum doesn't impress you, why should I be expected to give you the unabridged version of why he should impress you?

 

Consider the hypothetical anti-Backlund statement you gave earlier:

 

"Inoki, Patera, Muraco and Adonis were great workers and they carried Bob in those matches. Plus, Bob was goofy in playing to the fans."

 

As you noted, there are counterpoints you could make to these statements: point to what Bob did well in those matches, point to the comparatively small amount of great non-Bob matches those guys have had vs. the volume of Bob's great matches, point to the goofiness of other great workers, suggest that Bob's goofiness didn't necessarily detract from his matches, etc. The anti-Jumbo complaints can be countered as well.

 

What's the anti-Magnum statement that I'm expected to counter?

 

"When does it get good?"

 

Well, there is an obvious counterpoint to that: tell you when it got good, which I did.

 

Here's your counterpoint to that:

 

"They really did nothing to convince me he was a "good" worker."

 

What's my counterpoint to that? "Yes they did"? That's not an argument, that's contradiction. If you're expecting me to carry you in this thing, at least give me something more to work with than "when does it get good". I told you already. You responding with the automatic gainsaying of whatever I just said doesn't make me inspired to write a Jumbo/Hamaguchi-style lengthy analysis of the DiBiase/Magnum matches. And it's not like I have an obligation to spread the Gospel of Magnum. Frankly, it's spreading pretty nicely on it's own, because people are watching the matches and coming to their own conclusions that he was good. They don't need you or I to tell them that. Wrestling really isn't that complicated. Most of what's good or bad about any given wrestler is obvious on a surface level. If you've seen all of Maggie's great matches, and nothing struck you about him, odds are nothing I write will make you see him differently, unless I actually know what you're seeing, and try to relate to you on that level. Otherwise, it feels much more productive to write a long-winded post like this where I try to figure out why you keep begging off of admitting why you don't like Magnum (were your parents murdered by a gay 80's porn star?) than it is to write a long-winded analysis of a Magnum match that just tells everyone exactly what they already know and changes nobody's minds about anything.

[goodhelmet]

I have an Easter party I have to take my kids to but I'll jump in on this Magnum bandwagon when I get back. Magnum was what I call "getting" great. Right before his accident, he had this awesome series with Nikita Koloff who had no good matches under his belt up to that point. At the end of the feud, I can think of three matches that I would watch over and over again.

[BO1]

jdw wrote:

So... you're not wasting your breath. At some point I'll dig into the Mid South stuff in depth, and of course there will be all the Crockett stuff. Giving me examples to look for is helpful.

As a side note, no Memphis for you John?

[Bix]

I think he means specifically for Magnum.

[BO1]

Oops, gotcha Bix.

[goodhelmet]

On Magnum, I put the three disc primer together in preparation for the Smarkschoice poll and I thought that his star was cut short. I think you have to look at the roles Magnum has been asked to play and how effective he was in those roles.

 

If you start with 1983, he was II's understudy. Who else would have been as effective as Magnum in that role? No one that I can think of because he did it so well that I can't think of anyone else in that role. With II, he was the face who was beat on and abused and gathered sympathy for the team. He isn't Ricky Morton but he did a pretty damn good job of it in this team. You can give all the credit to the other guys if you want but I think Magnum has proven more than once that he could hang with the big boys in a variety of settings and not be overshadowed or become the weak link and we haven't even left Mid South yet.

 

After the II understudy thing, Magnum graduates to NA title contender and champion. Once again, compare him and Brad Armstrong in the same role. It isn't even close who played the role better. When Magnum beats Dibiase or Reed, you believe it because he is a convincing champion with credible offense, not as some fluke guy even though he was booked that way. I think the fluke champion angle with Armstrong was perfectly a-ok and enjoyed it but I didn't see Magnum as a fluke champion and perception is king in wrestling. As for the matches themselves, I don't know what else you want from the Tulsa or the Houston match. How many lesser wrestlers would have just crumbled when the ring ropes break. Hell, it happened in Houston enough that matches were probably dropped from the list because they cannot deal with adversity. Out of the 6 Magnum matches on the set, there is a good chance that 4 of them could land in the Top 20. Magnum deserves credit for that and the people who enjoy the matches do not deserve snide insults.

 

When Magnum hit the NWA, his role was to be a pin-up poster boy. The fact that he had a memorable feud and one of the best matches in Starrcade history is a credit to him as much as it is to Tully. If you don't like the match then I have no idea what to tell you as you clearly watch wrestling for a different reason than I do, especially if you followed the feud that led to the match. Add Cook's comments here.

 

The next role would be the Nikita feud and if the Tully feud was Magnum as White Trash Warrior then the Nikita feud was Magnum as Xenophobic, Red State, Cold Warrior. Right now, I have three of the Magnum-Nikita matches in the NWA set with a 4th likely to follow once I watch it again....

 

Magnum TA vs. Nikita Koloff (Match 6) (WWW 8/16/86)

- Magnum controls the early portion and he channels Ron Garvin in twisiting Nikita up. He even attempts an Indian Death lock on the arm. He refuses to let go of the arm, hangs onto Nikita onto the outside and rams the arm into the ringpost. Fucking sweet. We miss Nikita regaining control during the commercial break. Still, during the remainder of the match, everytime Nikita has control, Magnum finds a way to end up hurting the arm to stop the punishment. The ref bump and restart was unnecessary but when Magnum pins Nikita, it is one of the biggest pops I have ever heard in the NWA. The crowd is goiong fucking NUTS! I love this match.

Magnum TA vs. Nikita Koloff (Match 7 of 7) (WWW 8/23/86)

- This is really wierd to watch as the first few minutes are a sped up version of the first ten minutes of match 6 complete with ramming the arm into the ringpost. However, after that spurt, it takes a differnt turn as Nikita focuses on destorying Magnum's back while Magnum thorws everything at Nikita that he can. Holy shit moment for 1986 as Ivan prevents a Magnum pin so Magnum piledrives Uncle Ivan on the concrete floor!!! Khruschev prevents the ref from counting and ends up hitting Magnum with the chain for the Nikita win. I loved this one almost as much as Match 6 and it is a definite nomination in my book.

Both matches have Magnum working on the arm to prevent the Russian Sickle. Magnum goes with what worked in Match 6 and aplies it to Match 7 and works two really smart, simple matches. Maybe we'll have to give Ivan Koloff all the credit for this too despite the fact that Magnum has already had plenty of good matches under his belt and has never failed to live up to the role the company had for him. For a month, the rednecks in the crowd and at home put thier faith in Magnum and his fight against the odds. The Match 6 heroics were real as you could tell from the crowd's reaction. Magnum didn't have the Real American theme song but you got the vibe that he was more American than Hulk Hogan ever was.

[Loss]

I like Magnum TA just fine, but like Bix on Backlund, tend to fall in the middle. He's often romanticized, just like almost everyone from the JCP era, because his career was cut short in a tragic accident. He was never going to be a superworker, but he would have been just fine. But I don't think he was ever as good as peak Sting or Lex. But he would have been a perfectly fine foil for Flair, and they probably would have had some really good matches on top.

 

He was often physically awkward and seemed to struggle with what to do between his punches and suplexes, sometimes standing there and looking sort of wooden. (He got much better at that in 1985-1986 than he was in 1983-1984.) He was a grossly excessive bleeder, and because of that, his matches had a lot of drama because he created awesome camera visuals for his comebacks. The Tully match is a match I really like, and thought he was really good in. The Nikita matches really felt more like the praise should be heaped on the Ivan Koloff layout and Dusty Rhodes booking than the individual performances. Flair worked his formula with Magnum and I think Magnum played his role just fine. The DiBiase matches are DiBiase showcases, and I'm not even really crazy about them. I do think the cage match is largely Reed, Neidhart, and II, with Magnum filling a role and doing a fine job of it.

 

I think selling was his strong point.

 

The John Cena/DDP comparison is pretty spot on.

[jdw]

So he was exposed to Kikuchi matches on the undercards of "big" matches as opposed to Kikuchi's own "big" matches (either in status or Meltzer pimping like the Can-Ams '92 MOTY or the tag w/ Malenko vs Fantastics)?

I'm not entirely sure the depth of what he was exposed to of Kikuchi. Possibly the Budokans he went to. On tape, as I said, he would buy custom tapes from Lynch that focused on Big Matches, largely singles among the heavies but also tags among the top guys. Quite a bit less focused on the six-mans or TV tags (even something strong like Can-Ams vs. Kawada & Kikuchi). Some Kikuchi probably popped up for him, but not the stuff that made a mark.

 

He pretty copped in the thread that he hadn't seen enough Kikuchi when the examples were made.

 

 

 

That was an aspect of character: Crazy punch drunk guy, as opposed to Bob who was more a guy who happened to come off as dorky.

Hell, Terry had about a half dozen or more "characters" he'd play when being goofy. Sometimes in the same match. We enjoy it all - I dig the shit out of it.

 

But someone like Yohe who likes his World Champs to have some credibility, has always viewed Terry as nothing but a goofball. Thought it from before the time Terry was Champ when he worked out here, and thought it when he watched the Funks while living in San Antonio. It's really hard for me to get Yohe to see the all around "straight" worker that Terry is in the classico against Jumbo, simply because Yohe has the same type of issues with Terry than people have with Backlund. It's really hard to overcome.

 

It's his variety of it that people aren't crazy about. If he had a different image/look from "first non-ethnic white guy babyface WWWF champion" then his mannerisms probably wouldn't annoy people as much, but between his look, mannerisms, and sometimes odd execution, it's easy to see why some people aren't crazy about him and some even despise him.

I know.

 

I enjoy pointing out that a lot of what they despise is right there as elements of "great" workers of the era or other "top faces" of the era.

 

And that in addition to what they despise, there's a *lot* of shit that he does really well... some of it better than "great workers" or other "top faces" of the era.

 

I also know that I'll never be able to get some folks to open their eyes. Same thing back when we were praising Taue's work in 1995, or starting you point out that Toyota wasn't The Shit back in 1996-97. Some folks are locked in, and there's nothing you can do.

 

My point of this is that I'm willing to look at Maggie in new light. Christ, that should be perfectly obvious. I've looked at guys like Hogan, Backlund and Kerry Von Erich in a new light from the era. I've looked at my Favorite Wrestling from back in the day in a different light: Ric Flair. That one has been going on for close to a decade as I think more about him.

 

John

[jdw]

If you're unwilling to give me the Cliff Notes version of why Magnum doesn't impress you, why should I be expected to give you the unabridged version of why he should impress you?

I think that's a cop out.

 

Consider the hypothetical anti-Backlund statement you gave earlier:

 

"Inoki, Patera, Muraco and Adonis were great workers and they carried Bob in those matches. Plus, Bob was goofy in playing to the fans."

 

As you noted, there are counterpoints you could make to these statements: point to what Bob did well in those matches, point to the comparatively small amount of great non-Bob matches those guys have had vs. the volume of Bob's great matches, point to the goofiness of other great workers, suggest that Bob's goofiness didn't necessarily detract from his matches, etc. The anti-Jumbo complaints can be countered as well.

Here's the thing. I can point to this:

 

http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic....403&start=0

 

And that of the 108 matches I've rambled on in that thread that 17 of them have Backlund in them, and another six or so matches are in the que to be watched and rambled on. There's a lot of rambling in there, but there are also a lot of examples of things Backlund does in the ring. Here's one from the 10/17/81 Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco draw in Philly:

 

Nice turnaround as Don shows he knows how to counter the single leg by reaching back for Bob's head and neck to force him down to the mat for a pin attempt, nicely playing off what Bob did earlier. They work it a second time, and this time Don eventually mixes in an eye rake to break the hold. More excellent transition selling, this time by Don as he methodically tries to get his head while begining to work the neck to set up the Spike. Don's not far into it before Bob "Kobashi Ups"... literally. He looks to have that same mumbling mouth work going on along with the clenched fists. Of course when Kenta does it, that's part of being the Greatest Worker After Ric, while when Bob does it... it's just plan goofy, no matter what the crowd popping might tell you.

 

Don nicely cuts him off with a chop thrust to the throat and then goes to work on the Spike. Bob fights it well, then goes limp. The ref is a bit slow on picking up on the fact that Bob is limp, so Bob moves his arm out of his lap to his side to emphasize "I'm freaking limp, ref!" The ref gets it and promptly goes down to check him and work the "He Might Be Out" spot. Yeah... and Bob is the one who doesn't have a clue in the ring. It's shit like this that drives you nuts about the myths that have built up around Bob over the years. We've seen in these matches where he has to take the lead with opponents not wanting to do much, and in spots like this where the ref is asleep at the wheel. It's not like Bob is off in his own playbook that's hard for a ref to follow. If a spike gets put on, just like a sleeper or a bearhug, it's likely that the person in it is going to go "limp" and you're going to need to do the old Raise & Drop the Arm spot. So pay a fucking attention. The nice thing here is that Bob is paying enough attention to reel the ref back in.

 

I digress...

There are examples of good/smart work by both Don and Bob in it. In addition, I have fun with Bob firing up in the same way that Kobashi would be doing while winning all those WON Wrestler of the Year awards.

 

 

What's the anti-Magnum statement that I'm expected to counter?

 

"When does it get good?"

 

Well, there is an obvious counterpoint to that: tell you when it got good, which I did.

You pointed to several matches. I indicated that I'd watched several of them and they didn't click at all with me as showing Maggie as a great worker. I also asked what exactly in those matches show Maggie as being a good-to-great worker.

 

You passed on that.

 

Cook is passing through the thread gave litterally a throwaway example. When I watch the I Quit match again, at least I have one thing to look for.

 

You can't even get worked up to toss out a throwaway.

 

I'll give you another example:

 

Fan #1: "Taue was a great worker because he was in some of the greatest matches of all-time, like the 12/03/93 Kawada & Taue vs. Misawa & Kobashi Tag League match."

 

Fan #2: "I've watched that match. I don't recall Taue's performance to be all that special. Misawa and Kobashi were great. Kawada was the God of Work that night, just on another plain from even two other great workers. But I don't recall Taue being all that great."

 

Fan #1: "Well he was."

 

Fan #2: "Okay... what great stuff did he do? I mean... he was pretty cool at the finish eating the elbow to bump out of the ring, and then eating the elbow sucida to bump onto the table. But that's pretty basic stuff - Johnny Ace ate spots like that all the time in All Japan. What was great about Taue in that match?"

 

You're basical adding the following line:

 

Fan #1: "What did he do that wasn't good?"

 

WTF?

 

I'm not the one claiming that Maggie was "good". That would be... you know... the people who think he's good (or who thought he'd be an all-time great but for the Porsche).

 

I also didn't say he was a Shit Worker. If I said that, then it's perfectly warrant to ask me to explain why I think he's a shitty worker. But that's not what I said. I'm just saying that I never thought he was a "good" worker, even after watching some of the matches you cited.

 

I'm at a loss why someone who things something is "Good" doesn't want to explain why.

 

 

Here's your counterpoint to that:

 

"They really did nothing to convince me he was a "good" worker."

 

What's my counterpoint to that? "Yes they did"? That's not an argument, that's contradiction.

They didn't for me. They did for you. Why? Perhaps you can point out something that I didn't see.

 

 

If you're expecting me to carry you in this thing,

You've lowered any expectation I might have had on that one.

 

 

You responding with the automatic gainsaying of whatever I just said doesn't make me inspired to write a Jumbo/Hamaguchi-style lengthy analysis of the DiBiase/Magnum matches. And it's not like I have an obligation to spread the Gospel of Magnum. Frankly, it's spreading pretty nicely on it's own, because people are watching the matches and coming to their own conclusions that he was good.

I'm not exactly asking that the Gospel is spread.

 

That people are coming to conclusions that Maggie is a good worker means... what? That the discussion is over, it can't be thought about, and people who don't get it can't ask what they're missing?

 

In 1995-96 people thought Toyota was one of the 3-4 best workers in the world, and quite possibly the best. Depending on what day of the week it was, Meltzer thought it and the Gospel spread forth. I remember being in a rather large building in Japan, Team Toyota passed backstage, and an American photographer making her first trip to Japan asked, "Who's that?"

 

"Minami Toyota - the best worker in the world."

-Dave Meltzer

 

I confess that when Kawada came down the hallway without a Team Kawada trailing in his path that I enjoyed throwing out the comment to the photographer with Dave still there next to us:

 

"That's the best worker in the world, Linda."

 

We're a decade removed from that. People are still watching Kawada and Toyota from that era and "coming to their own conclusions". Admittedly I'm pretty much all talked out about that era after writting a few thousand posts (literally) on it. But that doesn't mean that it isn't reasonable for people to still toss out questions on why one thinks Toyota was great or Kawada was great. You might not get an answer from *me*, because as I say I'm about as talked out on Kawada as anyone can be. That might change if I ever go back and re-watch all of 90s AJPW. But even if I don't jump in, I suspect there are a dozen or more people who would jump in and yammer about him, with examples. Same with Toyota if you find the right circle.

 

I can't imagine that Maggie is talked out so soon after the release of the Mid-South set. If it is, that's not a great sign. I was more than a year into walking through the DVRVR matches and still into workers like Bossman and Bret to point out good things they were doing in an otherwise pretty useless 05/17/89 Hart Foundation vs Twin Towers match. And after all the bad performances I'd see on the set, I was more than willing to cite just how awful Akeem was in the match. I mean... sure, it's easy to knock his shuck & jive routine. But I went beyond that by pointing out examples of where he was asleep in the match while the others were trying to set up standard Tag-style Spots that needed his involvement. The 100th match of the set, home sweet home, meaningless worthless match... but it did actually give us some insight into all four wrestlers if you watched it close. Hell, I don't like Anvil and I had some positive things to say about how he kept up his end of the match just so it could contrast with Akeem really sucking Donkey balls.

 

So if after a few months of the Mid-South set being out you can't work up any passion to point out what he did that was great in some matches that you thought were great... ?

 

 

Wrestling really isn't that complicated. Most of what's good or bad about any given wrestler is obvious on a surface level.

I tend to think that what I see is obvious as well.

 

Then I see a match like the Briscos vs. Murdoch & Adonis finish high on up the list, and it reconfirms that not everything is obvious.

 

I have no doubt over the years that I've pointed out hundreds of things to people that I thought were nakedly obvious, but they missed. Same goes in the other direction - many people have pointed out things that were obvious to them, but I missed. There are times that I've heard it so often over the years that I joke about it when talking about matches:

 

"This is a match where very early on Yohe would call out that they're going long or to a draw."

 

 

If you've seen all of Maggie's great matches, and nothing struck you about him, odds are nothing I write will make you see him differently, unless I actually know what you're seeing, and try to relate to you on that level.

This strikes me as an utterly lazy approach. An example:

 

I don't know what you, or anyone else on this board thinks of the Fans vs. MX match from Clash I. Taking a wild stab, I'd guess that some like it. I may have talked over the years with some people here on what I think about the match. If so, I'm drawing a blank.

 

But when I sat down to write this:

 

Otherwise, it feels much more productive to write a long-winded post like this where I try to figure out why you keep begging off of admitting why you don't like Magnum

I never thought he was a good worker. I don't think I ever compared him to 1986 Jimmy Valiant and Paul Jones.

 

 

(were your parents murdered by a gay 80's porn star?)

Spent the weekend with my parents so they're perfectly fine.

 

I haven't watched any 80's gay porn, so I can't comment on Maggie's look relative to that genre. It wasn't what went through my mind when watching Maggie in the 80s. I didn't even think of him in terms of 80s straight pornstar look, and I probably watch more of it in the 80s than anyone on the board.

 

 

than it is to write a long-winded analysis of a Magnum match that just tells everyone exactly what they already know and changes nobody's minds about anything.

Again, I tend to think this is lazy. It's Meltzer or Keller level analysis - Wrestler X is a great worker because I happen to think he's a great worker, but don't bother with me trying to support it.

 

 

John

[jdw]

How much weight should be put into the opinion of the "hardcores" when time and time again they are shown to the biggest marks in all of wrestling fandom? They're also some of the hardest to please as well, so not being considered a favorite of theirs is almost a plus when it comes to evaluating someone as a worker.

And:

 

Yeah, using the WON poll and/or Dave's personal rankings isn't the greatest idea when Jumbo routinely placed on the lower end (not at all once IIRC) and Tiger Jeet Singh got praise.

My comment was in response to this:

 

I'm honestly surprised there is a negative opinion on Magnum TA. I thought it was just common knowledge he was a good wrestler. I'm not trying to pick a fight when I say anyone who brings "when does it get good" to the discussion almost sounds like a person trying to be willfully ignorant. I mean, had things worked out differently he was probably going to be the top babyface leading the NWA into the 80s and 90s.

The point being that it wasn't "common knowledge" in the 80s that Maggie was a good wrestler. There were some hardcores that liked him. But he really didn't have strong support among them in 1983-86.

 

I also copped to the polls being goofy, specifically with the mention to how Jumbo finished in them. But someone were to say:

 

"I thought it was common knowledge that Jumbo was a great worker in the mid-to-late 80s."

 

Any of us could properly point out that simply wasn't at the time among hardcores.

 

As people know, I happen to think they were missing the boat on Jumbo. But it remains accurate to say they didn't think highly of him.

 

Same goes for Maggie. The notion that Maggie would have turned into an all-time great worker but for the wreck is a pretty new one.

 

 

John

[Resident Evil]

People have different individual assesments of what good/okay/great actually are. What's great for one fan may actually be good/ok for another. Is there actually that much of a difference where everyone would rate Magnum as an overall worker? When in comparion to his peers?

[S.L.L.]

John, I can't believe you actually wrote all of that and still can't be bothered to list even one thing you find wrong with Magnum's work. Look, call me lazy for not spending as much time and energy writing about pro wrestling in my spare time as you. So be it. I was kinda amused by egging you on at first but....this is just sad. We should probably just drop it before it gets any worse. If it makes you feel any better, I'll leave you with one specific comment about Magnum: the second match from the Mid-South set with DiBiase, Magnum's punches really stood out to me. Keep in mind that this is a match with DiBiase, one of the better punchers in wrestling history, and it was Magnum's punches that jumped out at me. So there's that, for what it's worth.

[jdw]

So much for someone who thinks that barring the Porshe that Maggie would have been an all-time great worker actually being willing to point out what's good/great about Maggie in matches he thinks highly of.

 

John

[goodhelmet]

I am sure that was referring to SLL but I thought I tried to explain what Maggie did right in the matches and feuds he did have that I think highly of. Maybe it wasn't good enough for you?

[jdw]

I am sure that was referring to SLL but I thought I tried to explain what Maggie did right in the matches and feuds he did have that I think highly of. Maybe it wasn't good enough for you?

I wasn't aiming anything at you, Will.

 

I don't think Maggie was even a "good" worker, let alone someone who had a chance to be an all-time great worker. After watching another two of his matches yesterday, one of them pretty highly praised and cited in the thread as an example of great Maggie work, I still haven't seen something to change my thoughts.

 

I suspect that if I walked through the Mid-South set similar to doing the WWF one that it would just annoy the fuck out folks. The four matches we watched... yeah, I'd best just watch and keep my thoughts to myself.

 

 

John

[BO1]

Oh, please do that walk through for every set John. The WWF one (still, as it's evergrowing) is one of my favorite reads around. I can't wait to hear the analysis and breakdown of matches that I liked(of the tiny amount of stuff I've seen, as I don't own the set yet) that you'd probably shit on.