Crowd reaction in wrestling

[goodhelmet]

Ok, after seeing Loss comment on ROH and ECW fans in his match reviews, it got me to thinking... what should the appropriate response be?

 

Personally, I think ECW and ROH crowds are direct reactions to what was being fed to them by other companies. For ECW, wrestling was in full-blown cartoon mode and ECW gave the mutants something they would not be ashamed of watching. For ROH, it is a direct response of companies like WWE dictating what the fans should like. WWF used to criticize WCW for planting signs and allowing their crowds to be manipulated. Back in early 2001, there were reports of WWE taking away the Rocky Sucks signs because they wanted Rock to be a face even though the fans clearly were ready to boo Rock. Clearly, the Fed were being hypocrites and it made for some awkward television moments as Fed and fans conflicted. The Fed only has themselves to blame. They fed into the cheers and jeers of the fans during the Attitude era and allowed guys like Austin to become face while Rocky Maivia was booed and had to morph into the Rock to survive. Then, all of a sudden, they wanted to dictate to the fans what was appropriate after they had made the fans influence their decision making?

 

In WCW, the interaction with fans was a little eclectic.

The nWo v. WCW feud gave the shows a wierd vibe. You could have Konnan and Hall, supposed heels, getting cheered and having their catch-phrases chanted on a nightly basis. You can have the fans cheer Scott Steiner when he turns on his brother. WCW also had some of the worst crowd reactions of all-time, mainly at the 1996 Hog Wild show. Only with a bunch of backwooded rednecks could you see Malenko and Benoit put on a classic and get heckled. Only there could you see Harlem Heat come out to the racist chants non-stop.

 

Then I look at the crowd reactions of Japanese fans. Is it better to sit silently through a match with the occasional "OOhhhh"? Should we just accept it because we understand that is a cultural thing? Does the crowd reaction of Japanese fans affect your enjoyment of the match? Don't get me wrong. I have seen plenty of matches where the crowd reaction was off the charts (6-5-89). However, I made the conscious decision to not allow the crowd to affect how I percieve a match.

 

Then there are the positive crowd reactions of the smart fans. This is what happens when Chris Benoit recieves a standing ovation at the Royal Rumble even though he was not designed to be the star of the show. There are the "You Screwed Matt" chants even when the Fed tries to force Lita on the fans as a face. They should be allowed to sit on thier hands as Taker and HHH have one of the worst matches in recent memory swending a clear signal to the Fed that we don't like these guys. This is where ROH comes in.

 

I think ROH necessitates a different approach because of the way they book shows and have them so far apart. In the beginning, the fans were applauding and not cheering/booing as appropriate but the matches were not constructed that way. With the exception of Christopher Daniels, there were no clear face-heel lines. It was more about the athletic contest and Code of Honor. For the first three-way, I had never seen any of these guys before (except AD) and had no idea who was a heel or face. By the first five minutes, I knew. I also look at the size of the promotion. While they run 1-2 shows a month, it is really hard to build your characters as strong as you'd like when your main source of revenue is tape sales. In that event, I prefer to look at it from an exhibition standpoint not as a conflict. The smarky crowd doesn't bother me as much as the dead crowds do.

 

This brings me to another point. Do you view wrestling for the conflict or the exhibition? For some matches, such as Damian v. Naniwa from JCup '95, we look at it as an exhibition that can be appreciated for what it is. When I watched Ultimo Dragon v. Rey Mysterio from War or the Psichosis v. Rey match from JCup '95, these were clearly exhibitions designed to showcase the dance of wrestling... the atheleticism and the art of the movement.

 

Sometimes, I am even embarassed for the people who get too wrapped up in a wrestling match or angle, like the girl crying in the crowd after Savage and Liz reunited or the little ol' grandma who would attack the heels. I can't deny them their emotions but it wasn't the same reaction I would have had. I think I have covers enough key points to get my point across but I am sure other people have opinions on crowd reaction and how it affects their pleasure of a match.

 

So, how does the crowd affect you? Should the crowd always play into the roles the organization has designed for them (ie boo the heels/cheer the faces)? How much should the fans let themselves go and also realize that they shouldn't have to accept a crappy product? How much of the pressure is on the company and the wrestlers to perform so they get the proper response? Do fans have the right to voice ther displeasure or appreciation for things they observe in the company? Talk to me.

[Loss]

Ok, after seeing Loss comment on ROH and ECW fans in his match reviews, it got me to thinking... what should the appropriate response be?

 

Personally, I think ECW and ROH crowds are direct reactions to what was being fed to them by other companies. For ECW, wrestling was in full-blown cartoon mode and ECW gave the mutants something they would not be ashamed of watching.

ECW was the right thing at the right time, but I'm not sure it would work today. I agree that what made it work was having variety in the work, bringing over good workers who wouldn't have gotten a chance in the US before that and masking weaknesses. That said, ECW bugged me, because they didn't exactly use Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Jericho, Rey, Juvi or Psicosis any better than WCW did. WCW was often criticized for just throwing wrestlers out there without any reason for them to be wrestling, but did Rey have a storyline in the company at all before he started teaming with 911? Jericho won the TV title, but lost almost every other match he had, and he had to take a background role to guys like Shane Douglas who absolutely sucked. Eddy and Dean may have been given nice ovations from the ECW crowds for doing something unique for the time, but they weren't ever going to get that chance against anyone else. And why didn't Heyman ever put the title on Benoit? Why was the focus always on guys like Sandman, New Jack, Balls Mahoney and Tommy Dreamer, guys who weren't really much of anything, and one of which who shouldn't even be able to get any type of job in wrestling in the first place? Away from that, the problem with ECW was simple. They started as a 90s indy just like any other 90s indy with Southern-style booking with more emphasis on brawling than wrestling, with Eddie Gilbert and Kevin Sullivan both influencing the booking at various points. When Douglas threw the NWA title down after winning the tournament, that was fine, and getting more edgy with the adult-themed storylines was a great way to shake things up, but my problem with ECW is that they catered to the lowest common denominator.

 

I seriously doubt if 90% of their fanbase had an Observer subscription or knew a lot of the backstage stuff. They were constantly reminded that what they were seeing was fake. Austin would do a promo about being told to get seven minutes out of Bagwell, or having ideas to push himself up the card that weren't being used in WCW. Brian Pillman would make fun of smart marks and show up unannounced. It's like they were trying to get as many RSPW idiots as they could find who knew wrestling was fake, and because of that one simple thing, thought they knew all the answers. The truth is that the average fan knows wrestling is fake as well, but ECW fans thought they were somehow special for stumbling onto what John Stossel figured out a decade earlier. I do agree that ECW and ROH have been a reaction to what the big two were doing at the time, but they also played a major part in shattering kayfabe, to a point where it's nearly impossible to get the crowd to buy into a major angle now without crossing the lines of good taste.

 

For ROH, it is a direct response of companies like WWE dictating what the fans should like. WWF used to criticize WCW for planting signs and allowing their crowds to be manipulated. Back in early 2001, there were reports of WWE taking away the Rocky Sucks signs because they wanted Rock to be a face even though the fans clearly were ready to boo Rock. Clearly, the Fed were being hypocrites and it made for some awkward television moments as Fed and fans conflicted. The Fed only has themselves to blame. They fed into the cheers and jeers of the fans during the Attitude era and allowed guys like Austin to become face while Rocky Maivia was booed and had to morph into the Rock to survive. Then, all of a sudden, they wanted to dictate to the fans what was appropriate after they had made the fans influence their decision making?

In that case, you're right that they only had themselves to blame. When you put two babyfaces against each other, one of them is inevitably going to get booed, and the buildup to the X-7 match portrayed Rock as an asshole, and he was also repeatedly laid out by Austin. It wasn't going to work. That's why if Austin wanted to truly get over in his heel role in 2001, he should have put on a suit, apologized to Vince McMahon for being so ungrateful all these years and made a vow to stop drinking. Instead, he was the same guy, just more paranoid, and he was so funny and entertaining that you couldn't help but like him anyway. It also didn't help that they'd stack the odds against him like they did having Benoit and Jericho gang up on him in May/June. That was a case of bad booking causing a surprising fan reaction, and them trying to shift the blame to unruly fans for what they ultimately created.

 

In WCW, the interaction with fans was a little eclectic. The nWo v. WCW feud gave the shows a wierd vibe. You could have Konnan and Hall, supposed heels, getting cheered and having their catch-phrases chanted on a nightly basis. You can have the fans cheer Scott Steiner when he turns on his brother. WCW also had some of the worst crowd reactions of all-time, mainly at the 1996 Hog Wild show. Only with a bunch of backwooded rednecks could you see Malenko and Benoit put on a classic and get heckled. Only there could you see Harlem Heat come out to the racist chants non-stop.

WCW never had a severe problem with this until the NWO started. It's a catch-22 there, because the NWO wouldn't have been nearly as successful had they not played it cool so much, but by playing it cool so often, especially Hall and Nash, it made it impossible for babyfaces to get heat against them. Hogan was the only true heel of the group and without him, it wouldn't have worked for that reason. Before 1996, WCW had smaller, more loud and involved crowds that reacted appropriately to just about everything in the ring, most of the time. It took WCW pulling off some ridiculous angle to get the crowd to get quiet or get undesired reactions. It was always a problem in Philly, because the fans there have always loved to cheer heels, so in Philly, blame the fans for trying to be too cool for the room. There were always fans who cheered Flair because he had carved such a legacy for himself, but it never caused his opponent to get booed. That's when the problems start -- not when a heel gets cheered, but when a face gets booed by proxy. That happened to the Midnight Express's opponents at times in the late 80s, and it wasn't because the Midnights were playing up those cheers. In that case, blame the fans.

 

Then I look at the crowd reactions of Japanese fans. Is it better to sit silently through a match with the occasional "OOhhhh"? Should we just accept it because we understand that is a cultural thing? Does the crowd reaction of Japanese fans affect your enjoyment of the match? Don't get me wrong. I have seen plenty of matches where the crowd reaction was off the charts (6-5-89). However, I made the conscious decision to not allow the crowd to affect how I percieve a match.

The crowd is usually quiet early on and warms up toward the end. The typical Japanese match has as much heat by the end as any American match, if not more. The roles are a little different there, in that the heels are more subtle, but the audience usually catches on and responds to everything accordingly. I can accept that as part of their culture just because those are their paradigms, and promoters in Japan have made the product work within those norms. That's also more of an All Japan/New Japan thing, as groups like Michinoku Pro, FMW and AJW usually don't face that.

 

Then there are the positive crowd reactions of the smart fans. This is what happens when Chris Benoit recieves a standing ovation at the Royal Rumble even though he was not designed to be the star of the show.

According to Dave Meltzer, that was planned by the company, although it was intended to come off as unplanned. It's my understanding that they had plants in the crowd. Eddy/Edge, the no DQ match from Smackdown a few months earlier, however, saw Eddy, the heel, get a standing ovation afterward despite Edge being the winner and the babyface. I don't see a problem with this, because the fans are cheering the effort, and they wait until the match is over to do so.

 

There are the "You Screwed Matt" chants even when the Fed tries to force Lita on the fans as a face. They should be allowed to sit on thier hands as Taker and HHH have one of the worst matches in recent memory swending a clear signal to the Fed that we don't like these guys. This is where ROH comes in.

Agreed. Fans do buy tickets and should be allowed to do whatever they want, but I can still say that the way they react sometimes isn't appropriate. The examples you named don't really fit the bill, and the whole "You Screwed Matt" thing is exactly why it was a bad idea to fire him after the whole thing had been made so public, but it's exactly why WWE did, because it gave control back to the fans and the company could no longer manipulate the reactions to Lita.

 

I think ROH necessitates a different approach because? of the way they book shows and have them so far apart. In the beginning, the fans were applauding and not cheering/booing as appropriate but the matches were not constructed that way. With the exception of Christopher Daniels, there were no clear face-heel lines.

That's true, but in Hogan/Warrior at Wrestlemania VI, a babyface match, everything is cheered, not applauded. Applause during a match is basically saying to a wrestler, "I'm not buying anything you're doing for shit, but thanks for trying." Talk about a backhanded compliment.

 

It was more about the athletic contest and Code of Honor. For the first three-way, I had never seen any of these guys before (except AD) and had no idea who was a heel or face. By the first five minutes,? I knew. I also look at the size of the promotion. While they run 1-2 shows a month, it is really hard to build your characters as strong as you'd like when your main source of revenue is tape sales.

Wouldn't that make it easier? They could add lots of promos on the DVDs. For all I know, they already are. I think ROH has gotten better about this now from what I hear, but the stuff I've watched so far hasn't impressed me, but I blame ROH for that, just because of the ridiculous commentary about "stiff moves" and "match of the year candidates". From what I understand, one of the announcers said on a tape last year, "Ricky Steamboat even got a good match out of Mr. Fuji!" What kind of wink wink nudge nudge bullshit is that?

 

In that event, I prefer to look at it from an exhibition standpoint not as a conflict. The smarky crowd doesn't bother me as much as the dead crowds do.

Exhibitions are boring to me. If you can't relate to the story being told in the ring in one way or another, then it's just a bunch of moves, and if that was all I cared about, I'd watch gymnastics. The smarky crowd bothers me more, just because they insist on putting themselves over, and that's annoying.

 

This brings me to another point. Do you view wrestling for the conflict or the exhibition?

Totally the conflict. All the way. There needs to be a reason why things are happening, even if it's as simple as one guy wanting to beat another guy to prove himself. It doesn't have to be elaborate at all, but there needs to be some type of conflict; otherwise, you don't have a wrestling match.

 

For some matches, such as Damian v. Naniwa from JCup '95, we look at it as an exhibition that can be appreciated for what it is. When I watched Ultimo Dragon v. Rey Mysterio from War or the Psichosis v. Rey match from JCup '95, these were clearly exhibitions designed to showcase the dance of wrestling... the atheleticism and the art of the movement.

I can enjoy the occasional fun spotfest like those, but a card full of them would leave me numb. Damian/Naniwa was total comedy that the audience got, which worked because they were familiar with the other competitors and it was self-contained. Rey/Psicosis is a spotfest, but it's a spotfest that doesn't let up. I don't have a problem with those, as long as it's clear who the face is and who the heel is. The size difference alone, along with Psi's attitude, made it obvious Rey was the face fighting from underneath.

 

Sometimes, I am even embarassed for the people who get too wrapped up in a wrestling match or angle, like the girl crying in the crowd after Savage and Liz reunited or the little ol' grandma who would attack the heels. I can't deny them their emotions but it wasn't the same reaction I would have had.

I think that's what wrestling is all about myself -- regardless of if you believe it's real or not, you get so wrapped up in it that you lose yourself in the story. It's the same thing as watching a movie where the villain pisses you off or that makes you cry because the story is touching. I don't feel bad for those people; I embrace them for putting themselves out there like that. They're fans, and they love wrestling. I do too, what do you know.

 

I think I have covers enough key points to get my point across but I am sure other people have opinions on crowd reaction and how it affects their pleasure of a match.

Basically, sometimes it's in the hands of the wrestlers when the crowd reaction isn't what it could be and sometimes, the crowd is to blame. If the wrestlers are doing everything right but the crowd just isn't taking to it, I'm not going to blame them, but if the wrestlers are totally ignoring the fact that people are watching the match, then I'm going to have a problem with that.

[Tim Cooke]

I'll respond to this later as it is very interesting and something I have thought a lot about in the past few weeks.

 

Tim

[Al]

That said, ECW bugged me, because they didn't exactly use Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Jericho, Rey, Juvi or Psicosis any better than WCW did. WCW was often criticized for just throwing wrestlers out there without any reason for them to be wrestling, but did Rey have a storyline in the company at all before he started teaming with 911? Jericho won the TV title, but lost almost every other match he had, and he had to take a background role to guys like Shane Douglas who absolutely sucked. Eddy and Dean may have been given nice ovations from the ECW crowds for doing something unique for the time, but they weren't ever going to get that chance against anyone else. And why didn't Heyman ever put the title on Benoit? Why was the focus always on guys like Sandman, New Jack, Balls Mahoney and Tommy Dreamer, guys who weren't really much of anything, and one of which who shouldn't even be able to get any type of job in wrestling in the first place

Eddie Guerrero and Dean Malenko did get a chance to work against other opponents. Dean Malenko held the television title, feuded with Taz, and even had a short run against the Tasmaniaz. Eddie Guerrero doubtless would have had other feuds had he stayed with the company.

 

Chris Jericho was very much unproven in the U.S., outside of his work in Smokey Mountain Wrestling. Chris Benoit left before he had much of a chance to shine, and again, he was not anywhere near the name he is today. In my view, ECW did use them as well as they should have at the time. They put them in the ring with other great wrestlers, and had them put on good exhibitions of wrestling to present a break from the mindless violence.

 

Guys like the Sandman and Tommy Dreamer were pushed because the great wrestlers never stuck around, instead going for the big Two, which they should have. The guys that ECW were left with were the cast-offs, who had obvious flaws. ECW patterned their style of wrestling around those guys, so they could hide their flaws as long as possible. At times, ECW created memorable characters, and that kept them popular for a long time.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Something I always wondered about Japanese crowds:

 

Does anyone know how they came to be so dead silent sometimes? I mean, I was watching Bas Rutten vs Frank Shamrock in Pancrase, and while they did get pops for big strikes or whatever, you could literally hear a pindrop when they were both on the mat.

 

While I understand that's just the way they are, I wonder - if people make no sound during one portion of a match, wouldn't you automatically assume that they didn't like it? I mean, I know that's not the case in Japan, but like, did someone just announce one day that if you liked something you should be dead silent, or are Japanese crowds for any event more quiet then you would find in North America?

[Coffey]

They're just respectful. Hootin' and hollerin' is the work of drunk rednecks.

[Guest Some Guy]

I think ECW crowds were at first a direct result of what WCW and WWF was doing at the time but when they decided that they were smarter than the rest of the world because they could chant "show you tits" and "we want blood" they jumped the shark and became exactly what Heymen wanted them to be. It's much easier and cheaper to put a bimbo with fake tits and guys who are willingto slice themselves than it is to have great talent who can work. The guys who got pushed to teh top in ECW were the guys that Heymen knew wouldn't or couldn't leave and for the most part he was right. A lot of the guys who did leave failed in the big time and came back.

 

ECW fans were just a subset of WWF fans who wanted the blood, TnA, and cursing that WWF wasn't offering at the time. Once WWF started with "Attitude" ECW became exposed because WWF was doing "ECW" better than ECW was. ECW had Taz and Shane Douglas, WWF had Austin and Rock. Who would you choose? I'll take the latter.

 

ECW managed to somehow promote itself as having great wrestling on the basis that Benoit, Eddy, Malenko, and Jericho, as well as Rey, Juvi, and Pcychosis had cups of coffee there before they were scooped up by WCW and had their talents exposed to the world. They, ECW and it's fans liked to live in their fantasy world where RVD is a great wrestler and not a spot monkey with a cool gimmick. I like RVD and think he could have been a major star in WWE, but I have problem telling the truth about him. Taz is another guy who I like but is not anywhere close to the great wrestler that ECW told their fans he was. Point me in the direction of one Taz match that is more than 3 stars and I'll change my opinion.

 

A typical ECW show consisted of back-to-back-to-back garbage matches, an over-rated spot fest with RVD, and then Taz no selling everything as he suplexed the shit out of someone before choking them out.

 

ECW fans were lemmings, they for the most part bought everything they were sold. I vividly remember the Mutants screaming from the mountain tops that Sabu and Justin Credible were great workers. They were wrong and completely unwilling to listen to reason. This is a more a testament to the greatness of Heymen's booking and promotional skills than an indictment of the mutants. JR was right when he would talk about guys drinking Heymen's Kool-Aid.

 

WWF fans were trained to only really care about the top guys and that everyone was pretty much filler. It wasn't really until the Attitude Era that people started paying attention to the undercard because everyone had some silly gimmick and as a result the guys who got over were elevated to some level or another (HHH, Rock, Foley, etc...). Now it's back to only the top guys mattering and the undercard being ignored. Hence the crowd only popping for a select few guys.

 

WCW fucked themselve over with nWo. They let Hall and Nash get way too over as faces when they were supposed to be heels. It was their own fault, that fans started cheering guys who joined the nWo and booed WCW's lame stars.

 

Japanese crowds, from what I've seen react to the match as it's happening. When I watch a match I'm not jumping up and down over the first headlock but if it's good by the end I start really getting into the near falls and what not. I don't see a problem with how they view matches.

 

One thing I hated was when the ECW would aplaud stupid things in an attempt to mimick the Japanese fans. They would applaud RVD and Jerry Lynn's (admittely cool looking) overly'choreographed sequences that went nowhere and then go onto call a decent match great using this stuff and some highspot as the rationale. All they did was encourage the guys to work out their dance steps before had and not give them anything with substance.

 

In Benoit/Angle from WM 17, they did mat wrestling sequences and the crowd aplauded it, but the difference between that and ECW was that the mat stuff added to the story. Neither guy could really get the upperhand on the mat so they had to go to the pro-style, and even then neither guy could put the other away so Angle had to resort to pulling the tights. I'm not saying that it was the best match ever, it's quite far from it but it is the only example I can think of right now.

[Loss]

Yeah, and I think they're trained to expect matches to go a little longer, so they are watching the build closely to see where it goes from there. I'll repeat, though, that the heat for most of the AJW I've seen rivals anything from Mid South or Mid Atlantic.

[Guest Some Guy]

Something I always wondered about Japanese crowds:

 

Does anyone know how they came to be so dead silent sometimes? I mean, I was watching Bas Rutten vs Frank Shamrock in Pancrase, and while they did get pops for big strikes or whatever, you could literally hear a pindrop when they were both on the mat.

 

While I understand that's just the way they are, I wonder - if people make no sound during one portion of a match, wouldn't you automatically assume that they didn't like it? I mean, I know that's not the case in Japan, but like, did someone just announce one day that if you liked something you should be dead silent, or are Japanese crowds for any event more quiet then you would find in North America?

From what I understand they are silent out of respect. I imagine that if you can't get them to pop for the finish then you've failed to impress them. But I really haven't seen enough Japanese stuff to judge. Most of the Japanese stuff I have is FMW type garbage that I rented from a video store where an ECW mutant worked and stocked the shelves with RF Video stuff.

 

In America silence is a sure sign of the crowd being ambivilant, which is a very bad thing. I've been making a ton of Raw comps lately and there was a match with Val and TAKA vs. Kaientai that the crowd was eerily silent for. There wasn't even the the normal banter within the crowd that you normally hear. It was really wierd. It wasn't a great match but the fans never even gave the guys a chance, they wrote it off before it started for no reason, they popped when TAKA turned on Val. This was probably WWF's fault as they turned Kaientai from an interesting gimmick of wrestlers coming into take out TAKA to a groop of goofs who wrestle in jean shorts and T-shirts with an insultingly stereotypical "choppy choppy your pee pee" manager. Had they decided to play out that Kaientai were old friends of TAKA who came into set him straight because they don't like that he's becoming Americanized then it may have worked. Rather we got said castration nonsense and "TAKA likes the American ladies." But the angle did get John Wayne Bobbitt on Raw.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

From what I understand and have seen of Japanese crowds unless there is an intro, chant, flurry of moves or big move pulled off/being signalled for they remain fairly quiet and observant.

 

I think crowd interaction can really add to a match. I was watching Flair vs Funk GAB 89 the other day and Funk went for a few fans after they taunted him and it's great watching them back off. A completely different reaction I also find entertaining is the recent anti Edge and Lita chants that throw the show off course a little.

[goodhelmet]

Hey, Some Guy, in 1997, I could have easily bee someone to blame for that kind of crowd reaction. In fact, I was. You included a match of Tajiri v. Taka from San Antonio. I didn't even remember that the match took place or it being any good (it wasn't). I do however remember the Putskis v. Lawlers tag team classic that you failed to include!!!

[Mad Dog]

Does anyone know how they came to be so dead silent sometimes? I mean, I was watching Bas Rutten vs Frank Shamrock in Pancrase, and while they did get pops for big strikes or whatever, you could literally hear a pindrop when they were both on the mat.

It's mostly because they're watching the match. You'll get claps when there's rope breaks etc. The only thing that always gets a pop from the crowd are dives.

 

The weirdest thing I've seen is Konnan's shoe throwing thing in TNA. It's extremely over and the crowd holds up their shoes after his matches.

[Guest Some Guy]

Hey, Some Guy, in 1997, I could have easily bee someone to blame for that kind of crowd reaction. In fact, I was. You included a match of Tajiri v. Taka from San Antonio. I didn't even remember that the match took place or it being any good (it wasn't). I do however remember the Putskis v. Lawlers tag team classic that you failed to include!!!

If you want it you got it, dude.

 

I actually considered adding it but I couldn't rationalize under my criteria of: It has to be either good, requested, a title change, or relevant to what was going on at the time. Scott Putski was barely relevant so he didn't make the cut and his father who was more flabby than Ric Flair in 2000 was such an eye sore that I didn't want to sit through the whole thing. Kind of like Paul Bearer promos, which unfortuanately became part of the main event angle of mid 98 so your getting some (as part of the same segment with other promos) on Wed.

[goodhelmet]

NO, trust me. I have no desire to see it again. It was bad live. It will probably be even worse on tape.

[Al]

In regards to Japanese crowd responses, I know there is similar behavior when it comes to baseball in that country. I would surmise it is just part of their culture.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

See, that's what I was really wondering. I understand how the crowds work in Japan, I just wondered how exactly they got that way.

 

It seems that's just the culture of Japan in general.

[goodhelmet]

See, that's what I was really wondering. I understand how the crowds work in Japan, I just wondered how exactly they got that way.

Two words: atomic bomb

[Guest Some Guy]

See, that's what I was really wondering. I understand how the crowds work in Japan, I just wondered how exactly they got that way.

Two words: atomic bomb

I think that's actually how they got pro wrestling there, so I won't disagree.

[Resident Evil]

Sometimes, I am even embarassed for the people who get too wrapped up in a wrestling match or angle, like the girl crying in the crowd after Savage and Liz reunited or the little ol' grandma who would attack the heels. I can't deny them their emotions but it wasn't the same reaction I would have had. I think I have covers enough key points to get my point across but I am sure other people have opinions on crowd reaction and how it affects their pleasure of a match.

 

 

It wasn't one girl crying. There were a lot of people crying. I'm extreamly proud as a wrestling of the Savage Liz reunion. I don't understand why you would be embarassed for the fans.

 

In fact, it may be the most emotional thing wrestling has ever done. All the stakes were high and the angle was done over a long period of time. Savage and Liz had been together for years. The breakup took a long time and was a major angle. The evil Sherri was with Savage for a long time. Macho Man who was one of the biggest names was wrestling a career vs career match. His whole career is on the line. Everything was big here.

 

In a fantastic idea which puts so much importance on everything the cameras than show Elizabeth with concern watching from the stands. Savage fights the match of his life becoming the 2nd person ever I believe to kick out of Warrior's press slam (and the first as a heel) still fighting along even after all his big offence couldn't put the Warrior away. His fighting spirit is high but finally he succumbs against the indestructable Warrior.

 

His career is now over. One of the top 5 biggest WWF names has just gone down. That is big time stuff and when Sherri starts kicking Savage it makes the fans feel the ultimate in pity for Savage. When Elizabeth who hadn't been around for awhile (and we all know the history between the two) comes down and saves/reunites with Savage all these very strong feelings the fans are feeling climax in one terrific moment. We went from the fans not liking Savage at the start to admiring his fighting spirit to feeling sad for him to feeling ultimate pity for him to the opposite end of the pendulum by feeling the ultimate in happiness and notgolia while still feeling sad. All done with extreamly high emotions. This was the best soap opera angle I've ever seen.

 

I was feeling teary eyed and had mega goosebumps watching this just a couple of months ago. I had gone through all this stuff watching as a fan and it all just meant so much to me. Sorry for going off topic slightly but I just wanted to defend this angle. This is the kind of crowd reaction wrestling needs these days. This is what sticks with you throughout the years.

 

 

And why didn't Heyman ever put the title on Benoit?

 

I'm pretty sure Heyman said he wanted to build ECW around Benoit. THe thing was Benoit was doing New Japan at the same time so I can see why they didn't put the title on him right away. In fact, I thought ECW did a great job with Benoit considering the circumstances. He was being protected, had a great gimmick and was even on TV when he wasn't wrestling. Benoit just wasn't there long enough.

[Loss]

WP said it well. There are no storylines anymore that really connect with people on a personal level.

[goodhelmet]

First of all, when I saw the match and angle, i was in my mid 20s. I was beyond that. I said I felt embarassed for her. I don't fault her for having those emotions or feeling what she was feeling. I just know that I had enough disconnect from the era and the wrestlers that I couldn't see why someone would cry. The same way I can't understand how fans would attack the heels or slash their tires.

[Guest Some Guy]

First of all, when I saw the match and angle, i was in my mid 20s. I was beyond that. I said I felt embarassed for her. I don't fault her for having those emotions or feeling what she was feeling. I just know that I had enough disconnect from the era and the wrestlers that I couldn't see why someone would cry. The same way I can't understand how fans would attack the heels or slash their tires.

I'm still a month and a half away from my mid-20s so I'll make a note to watch the match again before June 20, when I turn 24 so I can enjoy it one last time.

 

Attacking the heels and slashing tires is stupid, getting into a great angle is not.

[Resident Evil]

First of all, when I saw the match and angle, i was in my mid 20s. I was beyond that. I said I felt embarassed for her. I don't fault her for having those emotions or feeling what she was feeling. I just know that I had enough disconnect from the era and the wrestlers that I couldn't see why someone would cry. The same way I can't understand how fans would attack the heels or slash their tires.

Right. Just try to envision as best as possable the circumstances the years and years of buildup. Try to put yourselves in the fans' shoes. Try to let your emotins flow. That may be an obvious statement but it's so true. It's something that has helped me enjoy movies, stories and wrestling matches a lot more.

 

 

 

I watched a lot of this era growing up so it's easier for me to get me involved. I can easily understand the crying from the fans.

[Loss]

As can I. As far as pure emotional moments go, Flair returning to WCW after the lawsuit in '98, the Savage/Warrior angle and Benoit winning the title in WWE are probably all at the very top of the list, because all got a pretty strong reaction out of me.

[Guest Some Guy]

Loss, no mention of "the boyhood dream has come true....for Shawn Michaels," what's wrong with you?