The Thread Killer

I don't know how weird it really is, Bix. Conrad can go from passive-aggressive at best, to downright rude, snarky and insulting if you criticize him. I've seen several incidents of people who are new to the show tweeting him about one thing or another, (sometimes not even being critical) only to get a snappy response. Conrad does a great job playing the smiling, jolly, congenial good ole' boy who is "just a fan" but I think that might ironically be just a gimmick. Maybe he and Bruce have a lot more in common than is evident on the surface. That's why I was pleasantly shocked when he responded politely to my email. I had anticipated a rude response and actually told him in the original email I was anticipating either no response or something snarky, but he surprised me. But in general, I don't think Conrad deals with criticism any better than Bruce does.

This week's show on Bash at the Beach 2000 was an interesting listen, for a variety of reasons. It started off great. Conrad had his research, and Eric filled in a lot of the blanks and really expanded on the circumstances surrounding his return to WCW in 1999, the reasons for it, the nature of his relationship with Vince Russo, and how it started to fall apart. As has been documented extensively elsewhere at PWO, I loathe Vince Russo so I was entertained by Eric's stories about Russo's multiple creative and personal shortcomings. The show started to go off the rails when Conrad seemed more interested in holding Eric Bischoff to task for the things that Russo booked. He recapped the show match by match, and that show is a perfect microcosm of everything Russo. No clean finishes on the entire show, not one. Ref bumps and outside interference galore. Poorly produced supernatural offsite segments, complete with Styrofoam tombstones. Scantily clad women dancing around in more than one segment or match. "Swerves" and fake shoots. The issue to me was that Conrad almost blamed Eric for it, or at least blamed Eric for letting Russo book it. It seemed misdirected to me, and Conrad was pretty relentless about it. To be fair as well, Eric's Meltzer bashing was pretty out of control during this episode. I bitch about Bruce Pritchard doing it, so fair is fair. Eric was playing that card over and over again this week. I will say, that generally Eric is a lot more specific about the reasons Meltzer drives him nuts, he will highlight the actual news items where he says Meltzer was wrong as justification for his vitriol. For example, Eric claimed that the reason Meltzer bothers him so much is because he knows Meltzer was being fed false or biased information by WCW talent while he was in charge. He even names a Turner executive who was supposed to be overseeing WCW who was getting all his information from the Observer, rather than asking Eric about the issues in person. Bischoff claims the reason he and Russo had to "work the boys" regarding the Hogan/Jarrett finish is because they knew if the planned finish got out, somebody who worked for WCW would leak it to Meltzer. That is one of the things that has always annoyed me about Prichard. He complains about Meltzer ad nauseam. He bitches to the high heavens that Meltzer gets things wrong or makes them up, but conveniently leaves out the fact that "the boys" leak info to Meltzer all the damn time and are usually the source of the damn stories. The only time I ever remember Prichard admitting that is during the Paul Heyman episode. At least the way Eric Bischoff explained it, it made some sense. I'm not saying I agreed with it, and I'm not saying it was true, but as an argument at least it made some degree of sense. Then he invoked the "Meltzer has never booked a wrestling organization in his life so who is he to report on or criticize wrestling" argument and I lost all sympathy for him. As I've said before, to me that statement is the podcast/shoot interview equivalent of Godwin's Law. When you go that direction, I stop taking you seriously If Meltzer has as little credibility as Prichard and Bischoff claim, then they should be able to refute him on facts, not by sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "how dare you criticize me." Fair play to Eric again though, he did say outright that Hulk Hogan was wrong regarding the facts in his recounting of the BATB 2000 incident in his book. He never said Hogan was lying...he did a fun little dance about how people remember different things in different ways, and talked about how Hulk had personal problems, and how sometimes he tried to "work" interviewers to the point where he forgot the truth himself. But in the end, he flat out refuted Hogan's claims - while calling him his best friend at the same time. I would not have expected that, to be honest. I expected Bischoff to pretty much be ride-or-die with Hogan and his version of "the truth." Maybe Eric realized that trying to justify some of Hogan's outrageous claims over the years is a battle you just can't win, regardless of how devoted a friend you are. However, much to my surprise the reason the show finally went off the rails altogether towards the end - and I was totally not expecting this - is because Eric was drinking during the show, and by the end he was clearly very, very drunk. Slurring his words, making jokes and going off topic. Not quite the "all business" Eric Bischoff who featured in the previous three episodes. It was still a lot of fun, informative (in parts) and entertaining. If I had to choose between this show and Prichard's show as they both stand right now, I'd chose this one easily. (I can only handle so much Meltzer bashing in one week.) Having said that, I would recommend Eric stay away from the booze while recording next week. It might make the show funnier and even more entertaining, but it's hard to take him seriously when he is clearly plastered.

I had some spare time this week so I just listened to last week's show and I agree with you. In the bigger picture, this show is really settling into a very predictable formula. Conrad reads something from the Observer or from somebody's book, and if Bruce doesn't agree with it he goes off in one of two directions. He either whines about Meltzer and how Meltzer has never booked a wrestling organization, OR we all just don't understand that they were "telling a story." Throw in some imitations, a bunch of shirt and live event plugs...and there's your episode. The two examples El-P and Bix came up with from this past episode on the Bulldog are perfect examples. Conrad recaps the "dog poop" match with Bulldog and Shamrock, and talks about Bret Hart's column where he took shots at Davey Boy for returning to the WWF. The obvious response would have been for Bruce to talk about Vince (either Vince) booking the disgusting and stupid angle or Bret being bitter and burying his own family in public. Instead, Bruce uses it as an opportunity to bitch about Meltzer. Again. Then we get to the One Night Only match between Bulldog and Shawn...where Bulldog had been told he was going over, and had accordingly dedicated the match to his sister who was dying of cancer. Except Shawn wasn't doing jobs for Hart family members in 1997, so he went and got the finish changed at the 11th hour. Bret has claimed this, Davey Boy was apparently furious over this development...but according to Bruce we just don't understand "the story." I think one of the problems is that Conrad is so busy that he no longer does his own research. The guy has his mortgage business to run, three podcasts to host and now he is running Starrcast. On top of that, he is doing the live shows with Bruce. So he admitted on Twitter a month or so back that he now uses a "researcher." I assume that means Conrad is just reading his questions off a format that he didn't write for himself, so when Bruce argues with him he can't respond as quickly (or at all) because he isn't the one who read the source material. This week's episode was just okay, but we are starting to get rapidly diminishing returns here.

http://www.mandatory.com/wrestlezone/news/956143-jerry-lawler-dave-meltzer

I am seriously considering DDP Yoga for my weight problem. Because I'm so damn big, I am starting to get back and joint pain, and my mobility and flexibility has been greatly reduced. I figure maybe DDP Yoga could help with my flexibility, and from what I hear you can really lose weight doing it, even though it appears to be low impact anaerobic exercise. I can cook, and would love to talk more about my favorite foods/recipes etc., but that will have to wait until later. I just worked a 12 hour night shift and if I don't go to bed very soon I may pass out and faceplant on my keyboard, I'm so damn tired. I just took one of my dogs for a long walk too, so I am really fading.

Thanks gordi! I'm just happy to see I'm not the only person who loves the Hybrid Wrestling era of Pancrase.

The longer this thread goes on, the more I'm convinced that "iamthedoctor" has been overwhelmed by his unrequited love for The Fabulous Moolah. Tragic, really.

Anybody here have any vices? By that I mean smoking, a particular candy or fast food, strange German pornography, stuff like that. I for one, drink WAY too much Diet Coke. I know it is technically "0 calories" but there's no way that much aspartame can be good for me. I have tried to stop drinking it several times (I'm pretty sure it is the reason I get acid reflux) but I keep going back and drinking it.

Around the time Zuffa purchased UFC and PRIDE really took off in North America, Pancrase released a four volume set on VHS of their greatest matches from their early years. I bought it through Sherdog, as I recall. I loved that set, I watched it a bunch of times. Sadly, I don't have it anymore (not that it really matters, since I don't own a VCR anymore either) so I can't recommend any specific fights. I absolutely loved the Bas Rutten and Masakatsu Funaki fights from that era of Pancrase, but I know a lot of people hate that style. I remember the posters in the MMA Folder over at DVDVR used to mock early Pancrase relentlessly, because there were no closed fist strikes allowed, so it was mostly open handed slaps (which does seem weird initially, I grant you) and grappling on the mat. Pancrase called that style "Hybrid Wrestling" and I really liked it. I should look around, I am sure there are probably lots of places I can get that online now. At the time, it was harder to come by.

I've noticed that you seem to be a big fan of passing judgment on things you haven't actually heard. In the WHW thread, you had a strong opinion on Tony's joke about Nikita's wife, despite the fact you hadn't heard it. Now you have an opinion on this show, despite the fact you have "no time to listen to another bullshit show." Just a thought, but if you want to express an opinion and contribute to a discussion about something, you should actually make a determination based on what you see or hear yourself. If you had actually listened to this show, you would know that Eric Bischoff hardly "comes after" Sullivan. As a joke in the "Fingerpoke of Doom" episode, Conrad brings up some absurd creative angle (I forget which, there were so many) and he asks Eric about it. There is a significant pause, and then Bischoff says: "Fucking Sullivan." Then he and Conrad both laugh their asses off, it is clearly not meant to be taken seriously. His blaming Sullivan (and other members of the booking committee) is done as a joke 99% of the time. I would not be one little bit surprised if there is a "F-ing Sullivan" T-shirt that debuts sooner rather than later. Conrad and Bischoff are doing exactly what Conrad did with Bruce and then Tony. Coming up with recurring shtick. Bischoff has said several times so far that he was not the booker. He came up with ideas, he took them to the booking committee. When they had ideas, they brought them to him for approval. One thing he has said repeatedly, is that he has to bear ultimate responsibility for everything that made it on the air, because he was ultimately in charge. There has been multiple times where he has flat out said something sucked, or that it didn't work. One example off the top of my head is the angle where Goldberg got taken into custody for "stalking" Miss Elisabeth. He freely admits that was total crap. Bischoff does take issue with a shoot interview that Conrad quotes, that Sullivan gave in the past couple of years. In the shoot interview, Sullivan claims that he went to Bischoff and begged him not to end Goldberg's streak and that they were "killing the golden goose" but Bischoff wouldn't listen to him. Bischoff claims that never happened. His big issue seems to be that in the years since WCW died, a bunch of the guys who were on the creative team have all done shoot interviews where they all tried to make themselves look good in retrospect - taking credit for the successes and absolving themselves of blame for the failures. He even says the same thing about Hulk Hogan, who is still a close personal friend of his. I like Kevin Sullivan and I respect his work, but if you've seen any of his shoot interviews over the past few years, you know that Eric Bischoff is right about one thing. He's a big fan of pointing fingers at other people and not taking any of the blame for some of the crap that got put on TV when he was on creative. I like this show more than STW for three reasons. Conrad is much more restrained and focused on this show than he is on STW and WHW. He sticks to the format for the most part, and doesn't seem as obsessed with going off topic or making dirty jokes. Secondly, Eric Bischoff seems more interested in discussing the topic at hand than he is in doing impressions. Finally, so far 83 Weeks has covered topics that I actually find interesting. Next week they're doing Bash at the Beach 2000, and any time somebody wants to bury Vince Russo I will be there with a big bag of popcorn. It doesn't mean I'm going to buy everything Bischoff says. He has an agenda, clearly. He is trying to get his version of the truth about the Death of WCW out there, and he is using this show as his platform to do that. I am not the "Defender of Bischoff." I find him interesting, I find his perspective on things interesting, because he provides insights on the business end of WCW that nobody else really has up to this point. I like this show a lot, for now. I can see myself getting tired of it, just like I got tired of STW and WHW. If you don't like it, I can totally understand that, and I have no investment in the show. I just think it's odd to pass judgment on something you haven't even listened to at any length.

I don't disagree with you...I wouldn't want to see him go anywhere near 205 Live again. I think his being on that show and in the CW division was half punishment and half Vince trying to make the CW division more "entertaining." When he left, they say Triple H took it over and wanted to make it more like the CWC. That's good. I think the only value Enzo or Cass have is together, as a team.

Bro, I said ON A POLE, bro. On a pole. Bro, people only want to see matches on a pole, bro.

The fact that the whole thing seems to be playing itself on the Today Show certainly makes it look like a work, but as I said - unless it is designed to promote Total Bellas, why bother? I don't see it leading to a Cena vs. Nikki Prenuptial Agreement on a pole match at Wrestlemania.

I wonder if it's true that Vince is one of those rich old guys who thinks he isn't going to die, or I wonder if he actually thinks about what his legacy is going to be. It has always been fascinating to me that it has never been good enough for him to be the greatest Professional Wrestling promoter of all time - he is almost embarrassed by that and wants to be more. I wonder if he even cares about how he will be remembered and what he will leave behind, or if he is just concerned with accumulating wealth and leaving an empire for his family. Or maybe he'll sell the whole thing to Disney or Fox.

I was going to mention the early PRIDE fights featuring Sakuraba, especially the Newton fight...but Edwin beat me to it. Those fights made me seek out Sakuraba's pro-wrestling work in UWF-I and Kingdom, and made me a real fan. I am also a big fan of the "Hybrid Wrestling" era of Pancrase, the Masakatsu Funaki and Bas Rutten years, before they brought in gloves and striking and started using the cage. I know a lot of people dislike that stuff and find it boring, but I really enjoyed it. It is an acquired taste and your mileage may very for sure, but if you like grappling you might want to check that stuff out. Of course...whether or not those early PRIDE fights and especially the early Pancrase stuff were really "shoots" or not is up for debate. Even if they were worked fights (which I think they probably were) they were certainly presented as shoots.

I don't know if anybody else caught this past week's episode on Bret Hart in WCW? It was pretty intense. We are in week three of this show now, and Eric is really starting to get into his gimmick and fight back against a lot of the popular online narratives about the "Death of WCW." I'm not saying I believe him (any more than I ever believed Bruce Prichard) but I find the show to be very interesting. If nothing else, he has provided some interesting details about the inner workings of the Turner organization and the way it changed once the Time Warner acquisition began. This past week Conrad used Bret's book as his source and at points Eric became near apoplectic over some of the claims Bret made, especially about contract offers and negotiations. He is adamant that some parts of Bret's book are outright lies. Like I said, I don't necessarily believe it but it is very entertaining. At this point, I much prefer this show to Something to Wrestle. That may be due to the fact I have tired of the STW formula, but I am really enjoying this show so far.

It is sure starting to look like some sort of pathetic staged story designed to promote Total Bellas, but that really can't be the case, can it? Either it is, and that's sad, or it's really happening and that's even more sad.

Enzo and Cass both back in the news over the past 24 hours... Meanwhile today... I am wondering if Meltzer's original report from way back that Cass wasn't popular backstage is true after all...although we have had no more reports about him being a Trump supporter. If Enzo really is free and clear of this sexual assault allegation, and if Cass really is being a pain backstage and killing his singles push, I wonder if there is any chance WWE brings Enzo back and puts them back together? Part of me thinks that might be the only scenario in which Cass is of any real use. Enzo does the talking and takes a beating and gets rag-dolled, Cass gets the hot tag and cleans house with a couple of simple power moves. Their formula seemed to work and there is no denying they were crazy popular and moved a ton of merchandise, which seems to be an important factor to WWE. Or are they both labelled too toxic backstage so Enzo stays gone and Cass gets pushed down the card? Or are the rumors of Cass having heat just rumors, and he continues to get a big push because of his big size? I didn't see the segment with him and Daniel Bryan this week...the way it read it sounds like it was designed to make him look bad...was it, or was it just to further their rivalry?

"Doot doot doot?"

I love the unabridged version of The Stand, I re-read that every year or so. I have the hardcover version, so it's like carrying a cinder block around, but I like it.

Thanks for adding this, Loss. Really glad to see this thread and I hope it leads eventually to a movie/TV specific thread, a music thread, etc. I had to read three pages to catch up on what everybody was talking about. I am late to the party, unfortunately. At my job, we work something called "The DuPont Schedule" which is 12 hour shifts...but they cram as many as they can within a three week period and then you get every fourth week off. So the good news is that you get an entire week off every month, the bad news is that they almost kill you to get to it. I am about to embark on my final 12 hour Day Shift and tomorrow starts my week off. But by the end of this stretch I am so fried. I barely have time to check my email or drop by PWO. I get up, walk my dogs, eat, go to work, come home, walk my dogs, make my lunch, go to bed...repeat. Ugh. I have a ton of TV shows saved on my DVR to watch this week, at least. I am going to contribute to this thread (post about my favorite shows, music etc.) when my week off starts. Right now it is 4:30 am and I have to get ready for work soon, unfortunately. Ugh. That's amazing. That takes a ton of self discipline and you are to be commended. Congratulations. I am probably going to have to do something myself, and soon. I have always been a bigger guy, but my weight has really ballooned over the past year or so, to the point where it is endangering my health. I actually had a cardiac episode a month or so ago and ended up in the hospital. I have to see a Cardiologist later this month, but I know he's going to tell me I need to lose weight. I am tipping the scales at well over 300 pounds now, and I'm around 5'11 so that isn't good. I know part of the problem is endocrinological, I've had serious issues with my glands and hormone levels ever since ending my cancer treatments years ago - but my crappy diet and sedentary lifestyle ain't helping either.

I came into this topic to mention three turns, Goldberg, Ahmed Johnson and Rikishi and I see that all three have already been mentioned. Can we add a subcategory for those who have turned so often that it has pretty much killed their career and made the fans lose all interest in them for the most part? We're looking at you, Big Show. Heel/face turns are only effective if you're emotionally invested in the character - if they redeem themselves by doing something heroic or hurt the fans by turning their back and doing something selfish. If the character has flip-flopped so many times that nobody cares about the person anymore, just expecting them to turn again...what's the point? Then again, the heel/face distinction seems to be dying thanks to VKM which is one of the things that is really hurting the business right now, in my opinion.

I always thought it would be good if there were other forums here for members to discuss our other interests...movies, television, music, etc. I figured if I have learned about different aspects of wrestling from the people here over the years, wouldn't it also be interesting to share notes regarding other forms of entertainment? I also wouldn't mind a forum in which we could get to know each other a bit better personally, talk about jobs, family, stuff like that. I like talking to a lot of the people here about wrestling, so it stood to reason that I'd like them as people. Not to mention there is such a diverse group of members here geographically, people from all parts of the world, I thought it would be interesting to talk to people about their lives in different parts of the world. But if I think back about the history of this board, maybe that is what caused New Millennium Blues to become Pro Wrestling Only in the first place. I get that this is Pro Wrestling Only and if I want to talk about those things, I need to look elsewhere. It's always kept me from getting to know some of the other members better because we're restricted to this one topic...but realistically I guess this one hobby dominates much of our lives anyhow. Having said all that, ironically, the only thing I really had no desire to discuss with anybody here was politics, because it's so damn divisive. No matter how reasonable the people, it seems like any time politics gets thrown into the mix it degenerates into hyperbole and insults. I too had noticed how political comments and debates had started to permeate other areas of PWO, and I didn't much enjoy that. I tended to avoid the Military Industrial Suplex because I didn't want to get into those types of arguments with people here, or let arguments from there affect how I looked at people elsewhere. So I can't say I'm really sad it's gone, either.

I have to go to bed now, since I have to get up at 5:00 am for work. I'll probably watch the rest of the show later, depending on the reviews. The important thing is that I got to see the Randy Orton match live. I'm sure it will all be downhill after that.

I'll probably be in the minority, but that segment actually made me smile a bit.