Timbo Slice

Flair Hansen Funk Lawler Kawada Tenryu Jumbo Liger Misawa Rey DiBiase will be 64.

Yeah, this was brought up from the start and you can't stop people from being assholes or spamming or being contrarian. Having it open means that just by the laws of statistics that the final list will represent the voters in the best way possible.

I also realize I was trying to basically be the devil's advocate while also not trying to belittle someone else's' opinion, which is damn near impossible. It just seems like in the end, this list is what you make of it, and if at the end of the day, you feel that within your criteria bounds that Jumbo doesn't get to be on the list, then he shouldn't be. I will definitely be interested in hearing the arguments from voters for inclusion or exclusion at the end of this, though, because that's more interesting than any name being put on left off the list.

Personally, I think you're being harsh on him to an extent and that there is a law of diminishing returns with Jumbo for some people. I guess my question is why he has that type of reaction with people. There are a lot of wrestlers whose work I won't go back and watch right away, but at the same time, if I thought he's done good work, I'm still going to take that into effect when making my list. The arguments I hear against him is that his work can be tedious and he had a tendency to blow things off, but I also think that when he's at his best, he's as compelling as they come. I don't mind holding his down points against him, but it seems odd that someone who has his resume gets left off completely if you also agree he's had great matches. I watched a lot of his top matches over the course of the project again and still think that his best matches are worthwhile, but for some it seems that the more people watch of him, the less they like him. Whether that's overexposure, a change of preferences in wrestling or what have you, that change can really affect how you vote. I'm as critical of Kobashi or Toyota as anybody, but at the end of the day, I'm gonna have room for both of them on my list because I can't ignore the great things they've accomplished and those great things outweigh the things I find annoying. I damn sure will hold what I feel are their weak points against them, but I can't just throw the good stuff away. Kobashi still had the Hansen matches in 93 and the Misawa match in 97 along with an argument for being in the five best men's tag matches ever. Toyota still had the three tag matches, the Aja Big Egg match and the Yamada hair match. Those are big time matches that stand up against anyone in wrestling history and for me to say they don't matter because I won't actively seek them out seems like a bit of a disservice. If you feel like the complete picture of a worker's negative aspects are that severe, then a lot of questions get opened up and it seems like just a deep decent into diminishing returns where people can talk themselves into a lot of reasons to poke holes in someone's candidacy. I see Jumbo as a guy like Flair: Everyone has gone to great lengths to pick apart Flair's weaknesses while taking his great stuff for granted. I feel that the Jumbo hate is similar in a way, although his style isn't as accessible as Flair's is to most people. In the end, this is the Great Match Theory argument. Jumbo has become the Gordy List candidate of that argument in a lot of ways. I feel a bit off in even putting in my two cents because the subjective nature of this project is unavoidable (even when people are trying to be objective about wrestling, the inherent biases always come out about ring work, which is why this argument exists in the first place) but at the same time, I feel like I have to come to the defense of someone who does have a solid catalog of work that can be pointed to and thought of as good, great and sometimes an all-time great level. Tl;dr - You have to figure out the weight to your own personal enjoyment. And if it matters that much, then everyone's choices should reflect that weighting as much as he can.

So I watched both the Toyota match and the Nakano chain match and good lord she is moving WAY up the ladder for me. To get that match out of Toyota when she was basically at her spotty worst and to go toe to toe with the best big match garbage worker ever is just insane. I'm going to be irrationally high with her on my list. Just blown away by her.

He's gonna be on my list. I think I initially pegged him for that 50-75 range, but I think he'll end up more near the bottom of it now. I know a lot of his Attitude work doesn't hold up as well, but the top-flight stuff is still great and he does have a lot of great WCW work that make it hard for me to leave him off, along with the Chris Adams feud.

When he was in Generation Next, he was exciting and new, and although he had his bullshit spots, he was at least smooth and tried to work relatively smart. Although he was definitely predisposed to bullshit in some of his bigger matches. I don't think he can be anywhere close to my list, but there was definitely a time where he was enjoyable enough that I sought him out.

I think his overactive mind for wrestling is a plus in many ways, but it made things tedious watching him in the ring. Won't make my list.

A guy with Tully's highpoints will definitely be considered for my list. He works a bit better in a tag setting, but his early Crockett singles work is pretty good, too. Thinking in the 75-100 range.

Miz is having a bit of a renaissance right now, and good for him, actually. Morrison seems to love where he is right now and people are receptive to his LU work, but he always seemed like a great underachiever to me. He should never be a face. He should be a jock heel that's a better athlete than you. He should essentially be Mr. Perfect. When he does that, he's pretty good. When he doesn't, it's hard to watch sometimes. I won't be able to find room for him on my list, but I do think the MNM team has a chance of making my tag list.

Man alive. I did that great Andre show a few months back and loved what I watched, and I think he has some high points that are truly untouchable. He's gonna be on my list, but I don't know how high I can put him. Off the top of my head, it would be in the 50-100 range.

I love Ogawa so much. He's a junior who Misawa brought along for the ride because he saw something in him and lo and behold, he turned out to have a pretty damn great career. In the ring, when he's at his best, I don't think there's a more enjoyable wrestler to watch in a lot of ways. He reminds me a lot of Nishimura in the sense that you look at him and aren't supposed to be impressed right off the bat, but by the end of the match, you're excited about what you just saw. The Kobashi GHC match is a revelation, his tag work is tremendous, and the small stuff I saw from him in recent NOAH still popped me. He's what Gedo aspires to be. I want to find room for him on my list, but I don't know if he'll get there.

Show will probably not make my list, but he does have some standout stuff that really makes you realize how good he was. It's weird to think that a guy like him doesn't have more great monster matches under his belt, but there you go. A lot of that has to do with his presentation and his push, but in a vacuum, he's got a tremendous set of matches that still stand up (SD! Eddy match, first ADR LMS match, first couple Brock matches, the great Taker SD match to establish the KO punch, of course the Floyd match). He's right there in that Owen Hart range for me.

There are a lot of aspects of his work that I enjoy, but he does things in his matches that make me shake my head to the point where it takes away from the good stuff. I understand people love his NJPW stuff because it's dynamic, but a lot of it seemed a bit shallow to me. Like there wasn't a lot he did to draw me in. I could tell it was great work, I could tell it was crisp, I could tell it was well thought out in a lot of ways, but it didn't resonate with me. Won't make my list.

Panther is the definition of a guy that is just enjoyable to watch regardless of the setting. He's so damn good on the mat and works smart way more often than he doesn't. He's been consistently great for quite some time. I think I can find room for him on my list even though I haven't watched as much of him as others have, but it's gonna be close.

He'll be on the cutline with me, because I think a lot of people gloss over the post-Bret stuff, but he was still doing good work, even dragging Jarrett around to that entertaining tag run. He'll always be one of my personal favorites, but objectively, I don't know if he has enough to outshine other guys who are right there on the edge of the list for me.

For a company that prided itself on trying to get younger, not going the full monty with Masters still seems really odd to me. He would have fit in well with the Bullet Club, too, but it's just another one of his many, many "what ifs." Won't make it for me.

Sneaky good for the time. In fact, going back through the late 70's/early 80's AJW stuff showed Martin could go with the best Japan had to offer early in her career. The JBA stuff was fun, and if you think about her work across the first 10 years of her career, it's probably a bit underrated. If I had to rank every one of the nominees on this list, I might actually put her in the top half.

That Momota match was really good. They gave him a shot at Lyger and then a shot at the GHC Jr. Tag Titles and he was great in both. Liger is going to be really high with me, as even now into his 50s he can still do some great stuff. He's got perhaps the best longevity case out of anyone on the list outside of Funk or Lawler, and like Dylan said, he very rarely has a boring match. Just an incredible worker and someone who has done more for wrestling that can be quantified, really. His influence is absolutely insane.

He's not the guy who championed the super-indy style. If anything, he subverted the way the indy style went in a way where people tried to copy him from an aesthetic standpoint and it couldn't be matched. I agree he fell into it from time to time, but he got more out of the other big names of his time than anyone else, really. I think watching his matches with multiple guys doesn't tell the complete story. For me, the story is that when those guys went off and faced off against other big names at the time, they didn't really come close in a lot of ways. They lacked what he added to matches that made them stand out. The one thing I took away from his indy run was that he went out of his way to do something different in a lot of the big matches, which is why regardless of who he faced, it was better nearly 100% of the time (stuff like the Roddy match, Aries 75 minute match are big strikes against him in my eyes, but those are outliers). A lot of me putting him where I originally had him was because I figured he had more time going forward, but the completion of his career has me thinking Top 15. Maybe even Top 10 depending on the names I switch around.

Will vote for him when he's not being billed from Ghana, West Africa.

Some foundation for the match: -Akiyama had just been humiliated by Nagata on a recent NOAH show and entered the G-1 for revenge -Akiyama destroyed Tenzan in their pools matchup, putting Tenzan on the brink early -Tenzan had to win out to have a chance since Takayama was in his pool, too, which he did thanks to the newly minted Anaconda Vice. -Akiyama beat Nagata in the block breaker before this to get his revenge and be in position to embarrass NJPW -Tenzan beat Takayama in their block breaker thanks to the Vice after taking a hellacious beating. Akiyama is at his zenith here. Grumpy old Akiyama is awesome, but invading asshole Akiyama is just on another level. It's all about making Tenzan battle through the same things he had to fight for just to get to this point, but the Vice is the great equalizer. The stretch run to this might be one of favorite things ever with Tenzan just fighting through everything Akiyama has before getting his opportunity to go for the Vice. And when he slams him down to the mat as Akiyama looked to escape, the pop there, and the pop a few moments later when he gets the submission is one of my favorite moments in my wrestling watching fandom. I know people see this as the Akiyama Show, but Tenzan was terrific here. He brought some incredible tools to the table for Akiyama to work with, and the result is Tenzan's best match and Akiyama's best non-NOAH/AJPW match. The payoff with all the work on the midsection at the end is beautiful. It also cannot be understated just how amped that crowd was for Tenzan. Then NJPW had to go fuck it up in four months because they pushed Nakamura too early. Unbelievable.

This is correct. Dunn is technically the highest-ranking non-owner employee. His stock options get added to with each contract negotiation.

Oh, Triple H is still the king of all this. He's still doing it now.

The best Ace has ever looked, and their run in 1996 was really, really good. I don't know if it's enough to make the list, but for a short-lived team, they definitely had some high-end stuff. An odd wild card to throw in to the end of the voting period.