Timbo Slice

I think on the tag team side, Sgt. Slaughter and Don Kernodle should have been nominated and I take blame considering I watched the entire Final Conflict feud and didn't even think to put them on the list. Their TV squashes were fun to watch, they had heated build up matches to the blowoff, and have one of the all-time great tandem finishers. I could have seen them sneak into the bottom of my tag list.

Hotta seemed lost in the shuffle with Kong, Nakano and Kansai all at their peaks at the same time. She didn't have a lot at the time that stood out like the other three did. That being said, she's definitely been in some memorable matches, including what's normally considered Kong's best title defense.

I'm with Matt. I really started penalizing people who didn't work smart. I think if the story is easier to follow, you rate higher with me. Also, I realized that my likes didn't really change that much over time. The things I liked more, I just looked for more in wrestlers and they showed up in those I voted for.

Did this really get called a MOTDC? Good sprint and a nice way to give Nakanishi a win on the big stage, but that's about it.

I doubt Ward will have the autonomy he had in NXT, which is a real shame. Not like Kevin Dunn and Co. are gonna jump at the opportunity to use his ideas as much as theirs. I thought Joe/Zayn was a MOTYC because they did so much to make so many things in the match actually mean something. Joe's deliberate nature once he took over in the first fall and how his dominance set the pace for the rest of the match, Sami's selling and comebacks were timed very well, and then the finish where Sami proves that even if you want to not give up, sometimes it just happens, was really well done. Joe is putting together one hell of a run right now and it's been tremendous to see him and Sami match up like this.

We'll be able to dig in to the results in a lot of ways, and if there are weird ballots, I think they'll be easy to pick out. I also think that the ballots people fear will be included (ironic or trolling, whatever you want to call it) will be at a minimum. Some asshole will try and make his point but won't get the opportunity to toot his horn about it.

I loved him against Martel in Portland in 81 (?). He changed up his normal touring NWA Champ match to give Rick more of a rub and the match was really good as a result. Martel would probably be seen as the star of the match but Race was really good in it.

Flair Hansen Funk Lawler Kawada Tenryu Jumbo Liger Misawa Rey DiBiase will be 64.

Yeah, this was brought up from the start and you can't stop people from being assholes or spamming or being contrarian. Having it open means that just by the laws of statistics that the final list will represent the voters in the best way possible.

I also realize I was trying to basically be the devil's advocate while also not trying to belittle someone else's' opinion, which is damn near impossible. It just seems like in the end, this list is what you make of it, and if at the end of the day, you feel that within your criteria bounds that Jumbo doesn't get to be on the list, then he shouldn't be. I will definitely be interested in hearing the arguments from voters for inclusion or exclusion at the end of this, though, because that's more interesting than any name being put on left off the list.

Personally, I think you're being harsh on him to an extent and that there is a law of diminishing returns with Jumbo for some people. I guess my question is why he has that type of reaction with people. There are a lot of wrestlers whose work I won't go back and watch right away, but at the same time, if I thought he's done good work, I'm still going to take that into effect when making my list. The arguments I hear against him is that his work can be tedious and he had a tendency to blow things off, but I also think that when he's at his best, he's as compelling as they come. I don't mind holding his down points against him, but it seems odd that someone who has his resume gets left off completely if you also agree he's had great matches. I watched a lot of his top matches over the course of the project again and still think that his best matches are worthwhile, but for some it seems that the more people watch of him, the less they like him. Whether that's overexposure, a change of preferences in wrestling or what have you, that change can really affect how you vote. I'm as critical of Kobashi or Toyota as anybody, but at the end of the day, I'm gonna have room for both of them on my list because I can't ignore the great things they've accomplished and those great things outweigh the things I find annoying. I damn sure will hold what I feel are their weak points against them, but I can't just throw the good stuff away. Kobashi still had the Hansen matches in 93 and the Misawa match in 97 along with an argument for being in the five best men's tag matches ever. Toyota still had the three tag matches, the Aja Big Egg match and the Yamada hair match. Those are big time matches that stand up against anyone in wrestling history and for me to say they don't matter because I won't actively seek them out seems like a bit of a disservice. If you feel like the complete picture of a worker's negative aspects are that severe, then a lot of questions get opened up and it seems like just a deep decent into diminishing returns where people can talk themselves into a lot of reasons to poke holes in someone's candidacy. I see Jumbo as a guy like Flair: Everyone has gone to great lengths to pick apart Flair's weaknesses while taking his great stuff for granted. I feel that the Jumbo hate is similar in a way, although his style isn't as accessible as Flair's is to most people. In the end, this is the Great Match Theory argument. Jumbo has become the Gordy List candidate of that argument in a lot of ways. I feel a bit off in even putting in my two cents because the subjective nature of this project is unavoidable (even when people are trying to be objective about wrestling, the inherent biases always come out about ring work, which is why this argument exists in the first place) but at the same time, I feel like I have to come to the defense of someone who does have a solid catalog of work that can be pointed to and thought of as good, great and sometimes an all-time great level. Tl;dr - You have to figure out the weight to your own personal enjoyment. And if it matters that much, then everyone's choices should reflect that weighting as much as he can.

So I watched both the Toyota match and the Nakano chain match and good lord she is moving WAY up the ladder for me. To get that match out of Toyota when she was basically at her spotty worst and to go toe to toe with the best big match garbage worker ever is just insane. I'm going to be irrationally high with her on my list. Just blown away by her.

He's gonna be on my list. I think I initially pegged him for that 50-75 range, but I think he'll end up more near the bottom of it now. I know a lot of his Attitude work doesn't hold up as well, but the top-flight stuff is still great and he does have a lot of great WCW work that make it hard for me to leave him off, along with the Chris Adams feud.

When he was in Generation Next, he was exciting and new, and although he had his bullshit spots, he was at least smooth and tried to work relatively smart. Although he was definitely predisposed to bullshit in some of his bigger matches. I don't think he can be anywhere close to my list, but there was definitely a time where he was enjoyable enough that I sought him out.

I think his overactive mind for wrestling is a plus in many ways, but it made things tedious watching him in the ring. Won't make my list.

A guy with Tully's highpoints will definitely be considered for my list. He works a bit better in a tag setting, but his early Crockett singles work is pretty good, too. Thinking in the 75-100 range.

Miz is having a bit of a renaissance right now, and good for him, actually. Morrison seems to love where he is right now and people are receptive to his LU work, but he always seemed like a great underachiever to me. He should never be a face. He should be a jock heel that's a better athlete than you. He should essentially be Mr. Perfect. When he does that, he's pretty good. When he doesn't, it's hard to watch sometimes. I won't be able to find room for him on my list, but I do think the MNM team has a chance of making my tag list.

Man alive. I did that great Andre show a few months back and loved what I watched, and I think he has some high points that are truly untouchable. He's gonna be on my list, but I don't know how high I can put him. Off the top of my head, it would be in the 50-100 range.

I love Ogawa so much. He's a junior who Misawa brought along for the ride because he saw something in him and lo and behold, he turned out to have a pretty damn great career. In the ring, when he's at his best, I don't think there's a more enjoyable wrestler to watch in a lot of ways. He reminds me a lot of Nishimura in the sense that you look at him and aren't supposed to be impressed right off the bat, but by the end of the match, you're excited about what you just saw. The Kobashi GHC match is a revelation, his tag work is tremendous, and the small stuff I saw from him in recent NOAH still popped me. He's what Gedo aspires to be. I want to find room for him on my list, but I don't know if he'll get there.

Show will probably not make my list, but he does have some standout stuff that really makes you realize how good he was. It's weird to think that a guy like him doesn't have more great monster matches under his belt, but there you go. A lot of that has to do with his presentation and his push, but in a vacuum, he's got a tremendous set of matches that still stand up (SD! Eddy match, first ADR LMS match, first couple Brock matches, the great Taker SD match to establish the KO punch, of course the Floyd match). He's right there in that Owen Hart range for me.

There are a lot of aspects of his work that I enjoy, but he does things in his matches that make me shake my head to the point where it takes away from the good stuff. I understand people love his NJPW stuff because it's dynamic, but a lot of it seemed a bit shallow to me. Like there wasn't a lot he did to draw me in. I could tell it was great work, I could tell it was crisp, I could tell it was well thought out in a lot of ways, but it didn't resonate with me. Won't make my list.

Panther is the definition of a guy that is just enjoyable to watch regardless of the setting. He's so damn good on the mat and works smart way more often than he doesn't. He's been consistently great for quite some time. I think I can find room for him on my list even though I haven't watched as much of him as others have, but it's gonna be close.

He'll be on the cutline with me, because I think a lot of people gloss over the post-Bret stuff, but he was still doing good work, even dragging Jarrett around to that entertaining tag run. He'll always be one of my personal favorites, but objectively, I don't know if he has enough to outshine other guys who are right there on the edge of the list for me.

For a company that prided itself on trying to get younger, not going the full monty with Masters still seems really odd to me. He would have fit in well with the Bullet Club, too, but it's just another one of his many, many "what ifs." Won't make it for me.

Sneaky good for the time. In fact, going back through the late 70's/early 80's AJW stuff showed Martin could go with the best Japan had to offer early in her career. The JBA stuff was fun, and if you think about her work across the first 10 years of her career, it's probably a bit underrated. If I had to rank every one of the nominees on this list, I might actually put her in the top half.