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Al

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  1. NON-WRESTLERS Lord James Blears Dave Brown Bobby Bruns Bob Caudle Jim Crockett Jr. Bobby Davis Joe Higuchi Jim Johnston Takaaki Kidani Larry Matysik Stephanie McMahon James Melby Don Owen Reggie Parks Morris Sigel Tony Schiavone George Scott Mike Tenay Ted Turner Stanley Weston Grand Wizard Twenty one candidates in total and at most you get to pick five. Let's start with the promoters because there are quite a few of them in the Hall so there is an established standard. I rank them as Crockett, Sigel, Turner, Owen, McMahon, Kidani. I hold Crockett in high esteem. Most people remember Crockett losing the 80s wrestling war and fewer remember that he took a territory whose biggest city was Charlotte and built it to the #2 national promotion in the first place. Morris Sigel was written about in the original HOF thread, he seems obviously deserving. Ted Turner I'm a bit cautious on because I'm not sure how involved he actually was. No denying his impact. Kadani is probably too low but I'm being cautious. Commentators are the next group. Already we have Jim Ross, Lance Russell, Gordon Solie, Kent Weston, Alfonso Morales, Dick Lane, Gene Okerlund. I think Tony Schiavone is probably the top candidate, he's had two more years now as the lead commentator in a national promotion doing arguably his best work. Dave Brown, Memphis viewers love him. My only reservation is impact. Tenay, Caudle, Larry Matysik round out the group. Matysik is a tricky case because he was more than a commentator and it's really difficult to pin him in one category. Like bookers? There are Bobby Bruns, Lord James Blears, George Scott, Matysik. All had contributions that are difficult to quantify. Bruns is probably the most crucial. You can imagine a world where James Blears wasn't involved and someone else took his place. But Bruns kind of got the ball rolling in Japan to begin with. Two managers on the ballot, the Grand Wizard and Bobby Davis. I'll always hold the Wizard in high regard and he's in recent memory. Bobby Davis was great from what I've seen but you really have to go looking. Others. Joe Higuchi would be the first referee, Reggie Parks the first belt maker, Jim Johnston the first musician, James Melby the first historian. If you're going to look at Higuchi you should probably form a separate committee and pick out a few really good ones to consider. As for Johnston the music is important, but so is production, directing, camera work, pyrotechnics, etc. and no one else in those categories has really been considered. You're setting yourself up for a hell of a wormhole. Reggie Parks I think deserves consideration, but I would think about what making a good championship belt means versus booking and promoting like Don Owen in Portland. (Both are valid) Bill Melby might slot in along with Stanley Weston as writers. There's the "If Apter, then Weston" argument. I didn't think Apter really fit but now that door is open, can you keep Weston out? Is it worth giving him a slot because of that over a better commentator candidate? Melby I like as a candidate, but don't love. Putting them all together my top five looks like this: 1. Jim Crockett Jr. 2. Tony Schiavone 3. Morris Sigel 4. The Grand Wizard 5. Ted Turner And since I've been doing top tens, I would round it out with Don Owen, Bobby Bruns, Dave Brown, Bobby Davis, Stanley Weston.
  2. Al

    Survivor Series 2021

    Brand vs. brand doesn't mean anything to WWE either. They can promote "brand supremacy" all they want but at the end of the day they have to keep multiple parties happy and they can't actually come out of it with anything other than 50/50 booking. More so than usual.
  3. I've gone to see Disney on Ice. It's a decent show. If I went to see it every week I would go insane. That's WWE. I could go to a house show tomorrow and feel like I got my money's worth. But as a week-to-week proposition they have absolutely nothing going for them.
  4. I’m never a fan of handling situations like that. I can’t believe this guy got so much room to operate though. He had a 20-30 yard headwind to take down Rollins and I wouldn’t be surprised if Rollins got hurt.
  5. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA Sypros Arion L'Ange Blanc (Francisco Pino) Big Daddy John Da Silva Roger Delaporte & Andre Bollet Dominic DeNucci Billy Joyce George Kidd Killer Karl Kox Kendo Nagasaki Jackie Pallo Rollerball Mark Rocco Johnny Saint Ricki Starr Adrian Street Jose Tarres Otto Wanz Where to begin on this? It's awkward that the voters doing research on the French Catch footage also need to pass fair judgment on the British and Australian workers. I divided the group into three and I'll try and put it all together at the end. FRENCH Jose Tarres L'Ange Blanc Delaporte/Bollet Tarres is probably the best candidate here. Blanc sounds impressive but a short peak. As an aside, it's interesting how well mask angles worked in old school wrestling. BRITISH Big Daddy Johnny Saint Rollerball Mark Rocco George Kidd Billy Joyce Jackie Pallo Kendo Nagasaki Big Daddy is controversial. I look at current inductees like the Sheik. If it's over, it doesn't matter how poor the in-ring work is. George Kidd has an argument as the best lightweight of all time. (I wonder if that would open the door for pre-1920 lighter weight wrestlers.) Voters clearly favor work, Saint and Rocco both finished above 50% last time. I'm not enamored with them as candidates, but part of this exercise is to identify and promote the best choices. I don't think the ballot goes anywhere until Saint and/or Rocco are clear. Joyce and Nagasaki don't have momentum. Pallo might. OTHERS Dominic DeNucci Adrian Street Ricki Starr Otto Wanz Killer Karl Kox Spiros Arion John Da Silva DeNucci may have used a racial slur to describe Obama in the White House but otherwise he's probably the best on here. Street was groundbreaking. Ricki Starr too. I feel like the entire ballot I would go up and down and say positive things, but elite? 1. Big Daddy 2. Johnny Saint 3. Rollerball Mark Rocco 4. George Kidd 5. Adrian Street 6. Ricki Starr 7. Billy Joyce 8. Otto Wanz 9. Killer Karl Kox 10. Spiros Arion
  6. Al

    Survivor Series 2021

    Sbarro was so ubiquitous that there was probably one in Scranton.
  7. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Los Brazos (Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo) Sangre Chicana Psycho Clown Los Hermanos Dinamita (Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 & Universo 2000) Dorrell Dixon Pirata Morgan Mistico/Caristico Octagon La Parka AAA Huracan Ramirez Rito Romero I'll start with a list and add comments. 1. Huracan Ramirez. Contemporaries in the Hall (born in the same decade): Blue Demon, Black Shadow, Cavernario Galindo, Ray Mendoza, Gory Guerrero, Karloff Lagarde, Medico Asesino. Last year Dave said he felt the backlog of Lucha candidates was empty. I think that may have been a slight to Ramirez, who is iconic in lucha in a way I don't think any of the other candidates are. 2. Mistico. Contemporaries in the Hall: none yet. Modern Mexico is hard to evaluate because the big promotions brush guys off and they kind of become persona non grata as well as measurable achievements. I don't know if Mistico is a HOFer, but he had a very high peak. 3. Dorrell (Dory) Dixon. I'd list contemporaries but he's different from native luchadors. Dixon I'm honestly more familiar with for his time in Capitol Wrestling where he was a capable hand and occasional main eventer, particularly in six man tags. As ethantyler said in another thread, historically significant wrestler in Mexico. 4. Rito Romero. See Ramirez for contemporaries. Is someone who was a draw in the Southwest territories a bigger star than someone most popular in Mexico? Does crossing the border mean something significant? I'm betting yes here. Romero did very well in Texas and Los Angeles. 5. Sangre Chicana. Contemporaries: Villano III, Dos Caras, El Canek, Lizmark, the Misioneros. 6. Los Brazos. 7. Pirata Morgan 8. Psycho Clown. The Dr. Wagner mask match was a real feather in his cap. But I don't get the feeling he's an important part of the wrestling scene and I could be completely off base on that. Being lucha he's got about twenty more years to build a case. 9. Octagon. 10. Los Hermanos Dinamita. I'm sympathetic to Cien Caras as a candidate. As a trio, I'm not sold. 11. La Parka (II). Look, two of the exact same gimmick is just going to break the system.
  8. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES Cima Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan Yoshiaki Fujiwara Hayabusa Kota Ibushi Kyoko Inoue Tomohiro Ishii Naomichi Marufuji Tetsuya Naito Kazuchika Okada Meiko Satomura Katsuyori Shibata Takashi Sugiura Akira Taue So...I can't say that I really did follow wrestling in Japan. I'm aware of things, I'll check out big matches, but I can count the number of Fujiwara matches I've seen on one hand and some of these workers I've never seen. The biggest issue for me is that I would tend to judge drawing power over work. It's not so much anti-work as a philosophy that truly important workers usually end up in positions of influence anyway. Another roadblock I have is that I really don't know how important Dragon Gate, GAEA, Stardom, FMW, etc. So ignorance forthcoming! Assume that you are right and I am wrong 1. Kazuchika Okada - except for this one. Okada has main evented multiple stadium shows, held the IWGP championship longer than anyone in history, is generally considered an elite worker. I think everyone expects Okada to go in. 2. Kota Ibushi. Too early. But someone who seems to me to be on a HOF path. 3. Akira Taue. My reservation is that a LOT of his peers are in, to the point where it feels like arguing that if Hack Wilson and Kiki Cuyler are in the Hall, Riggs Stephenson should be in too (Cubs outfielders from the 1930s). People will argue that's unfair to Taue and they may be right. But given that this is the 9th time arguing about Taue there's obviously dissent. 4. Yoshiaki Fujiwara. Clearly respected as a great worker and influencer of the shoot style of wrestling. 5. Meiko Satomura. Yeah, it's NXT UK. But to be a great worker for 20+ years to the point where even WWE can't ignore it? That's good. I've only seen a handful of her matches but I can see it too. 6. CIMA. Apparently Dragon Gate is a big thing and CIMA was the most important aspect? I believe the former, taking people's word on it for the latter. 7. Kojima/Tenzan. I don't think there's a great argument as a team and Kojima is probably a better candidate as a single. 8. Tomohiro Ishii. Don't know much about him as a draw but he's won best brawler several times. Ishii feels like someone really building his resume right now even in his 40s. 9. Tetsuya Naito. Had the IWGP championship run but it feels like he's cooled. 10. Kyoko Inoue. I don't know much about her to be honest, even her Wikipedia entry is only seven sentences long. But she's had a long career as a wrestler and now a promoter in womens wrestling? The rest...Hayabusa was great but the career ending injury kind of leaves him as a what if...Sugiura and Marufuji are distant names to me, I know what titles they've held but little else that would bolster their standing. Pro Wrestling NOAH is a real blind spot...Shibata, I just don't know enough.
  9. It's not about lowering standards, it's about revising the way we evaluate candidates. Ox Baker sold tickets and was famous enough to be a random contestant on the Price Is Right. June Byer was a mystery character on To Tell the Truth. The Big Show isn't considered a Hall of Fame draw but he got his own Netflix show. How do you adjust for that? The modern group of wrestlers despite falling ratings and ticket sales is better known nationally and casually than wrestlers of 50-75 years ago. I think there's a trap of overrating/underrating performers just because live entertainment, pay-per-view, network television, newspapers etc. was how everyone consumed things.
  10. Sigel is someone who I feel like everyone on his level is in. No brainer when you dig into his case.
  11. Wouldn't the difference be that you do one from the front and one from the back? It's probably silly in a wrestling ring but in a real competition that would matter.
  12. For reference: I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson w/J.J. Dillon Nikki Bella Junkyard Dog Bill Dundee Edge Charlotte Flair Bill Goldberg Matt & Jeff Hardy Kamala Rick Martel Jon Moxley/Dean Ambrose Paul Orndorff Randy Orton C.M. Punk Seth Rollins Sgt. Slaughter Trish Stratus Rick & Scott Steiner Ultimate Warrior My top ten 1. CM Punk 2. Sgt. Slaughter 3. Junkyard Dog 4. Edge 5. Randy Orton 6. Bill Goldberg 7. Matt & Jeff Hardy 8. Rick & Scott Steiner 9. Paul Orndorff 10. Rick Martel The Hall by my count has about 40 performers who were born in the 1960s, eleven from the '70s, three from the '80s. I think at some point you need to revise standards of what a HOFer from this era is, so I tend to run higher on guys like Edge and Orton. Not Seth Rollins, let's not go crazy here. Actually him and Moxley are just too soon to tell. Same with Charlotte Flair. I would go higher on Trish Stratus, but I can't justify her over someone like Orndorff or Martel. FWIW I draw a thin line between the top three who I WOULD vote for and the rest who I MIGHT vote for.
  13. In an ideal world I think Walter would be the heel challenger for guys like Big E and Drew McIntyre. He would’ve been great in the territories as someone who could spend six months in a territory and move on the start murking guys somewhere else.
  14. My top ten: 1. Enrique Torres 2. Johnny Rougeau 3. Mr. Wrestling II 4. Bull Curry 5. Rocky Johnson 6. Bob Ellis 7. The Mongolian Stomper 8. Bob Armstrong 9. Blackjack Mulligan 10. Ole Anderson This is a tough ballot because no one is ever the obvious strong pick, but there usually isn't a glaringly weak candidate. This isn't an underrepresented era either. Far more domestic historical wrestlers have been inducted than those born 1950 and beyond.
  15. Something I've wanted to try, don't know if it would get any traction but it's worth a shot. One of the issues I have with the Observer Hall ballot is that it is extremely cumbersome. There are about 100 candidates this year. Rather than going up/down on each as an individual/team, I want to try and sort them out to see which are the best candidates to advance their cases. If you're inclined, rank the candidates from 1-10, regardless of whether you think they actually deserve induction. I'll include my own list on a post after this one. For reference, the candidates: Ole Anderson Bob Armstrong Hollywood Blonds (Buddy Roberts & Jerry Brown w/Sir Oliver Humperdink) Jerry Brisco June Byers Buddy Colt Wild Bull Curry Cowboy Bob Ellis The Fabulous Ones (Stan Lane & Steve Keirn) Pampero Firpo Black Gordman & Great Goliath Archie "Mongolian Stomper" Gouldie Rocky Johnson Sputnik Monroe Blackjack Mulligan Johnny Rougeau Enrique Torres Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff Johnny "Mr.Wrestling II" Walker
  16. The whole group of workers who were mid to late career in the late ‘90s never really got a clean look. Luger was mentioned earlier, he hasn’t been voted on with his entire career in the rear view mirror. Workers from this generation make the ballot the year they become eligible, hence Charlotte and Nikki.
  17. Rumors have been going around about WWE selling. As far as image I don't think WWE is out of line with the rest of big business. The stuff we rake WWE over the coals for? A lot of it is standard operating procedure for most businesses. The music industry, movie studios, sports leagues, most of them are equally scuzzy. If they're profitable, people want them.
  18. It’s either this or a five year plan to position themselves to survive the AEW surge. Given Vince’s age I’m guessing the former.
  19. I’m interested to see what the comeback does for CM Punk. Also note L’ange Blanc on the ballot. Curious to see what his vote total is.
  20. Always enjoyable pod. A clarification on ‘median.’ It’s different from average, it simply measures the midpoint. A median of 62 means half of the crowd is over that age. Whether they are one year over or 30 years over doesn’t change the median.
  21. Where is Gilberto Roman when you need him?
  22. NYou can listen to a baseball game from the 1930s and it really doesn’t come off much different. Boxing kind of modernized in the 1920s. You watch Jack Johnson and he’s fighting a very different style. I actually watched Thesz/Longson earlier today. Thesz is signing autographs before the match. Thirty years later with the Von Erich boys kids are still trying for autographs before matches. I don’t think that was an exclusive rite of the Sportatorium but it’s a neat little bit of tradition. Even if it looked like the wrestler was capable of one autograph every two minutes.
  23. Usually the episodes end up on YouTube through the official vice channel. Might take a few days.
  24. Fish is the kind of wrestler who should stand in the corner while his jobber partner gets annihilated by the British Bulldogs or whoever.
  25. If there’s one redeeming qualities to these shows it’s Bill Goldberg, Jewish mega-baby face in Saudi Arabia.
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